excessive instructor fees?

olasek

olasek

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olasek
Walked today into some SF Bay Area flying club and inquired about their aircraft. They do have a very nice rather high-end inventory of single engine aircraft available for rental. But I did not expect to hear $80-$85 per hour in instructor fees. Isn't it a bit excessive, I wonder what you think.
 
Is that per Hobbs hour or per hour of his time ?
 
If they are a quality, experienced instructor and that rate includes a nominal amount of ground time discussion before/after the flight I wouldn't take issue with it. If you mesh well with the instructor and the school/club has good equipment that you want to fly, I don't see why a couple/few hundred bucks difference in cost for a rating should matter. The CFI has to put $4.30/gal gas in their car too.

Jeff
 
If they have sufficient people willing to pay that then it is not excessive.

olasek said:
Walked today into some SF Bay Area flying club and inquired about their aircraft. They do have a very nice rather high-end inventory of single engine aircraft available for rental. But I did not expect to hear $80-$85 per hour in instructor fees. Isn't it a bit excessive, I wonder what you think.
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Excessive. Come to Texas where owners of flight schools themselves charge just $45/hr
 
Jeff Oslick said:
If they are a quality, experienced instructor and that rate includes a nominal amount of ground time discussion before/after the flight I wouldn't take issue with it. If you mesh well with the instructor and the school/club has good equipment that you want to fly, I don't see why a couple/few hundred bucks difference in cost for a rating should matter. The CFI has to put $4.30/gal gas in their car too.

Jeff
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I'm assuming you're a CFI??

Anything over $35, and you're being robbed.
 
Must be West Valley Flying Club. They do have a large selection of aircrafts, but the instructors charge Palo Alto rates. Red Sky Aviation in Livermore where I trained from charges $97 for C172M and $45 for instructor. Oakland Flyers and California Airways at Hayward seems reasonable as well, although I don't have any experience with them.
 
:no: $35/hr would barely cover my overhead.
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And this would be my problem because?
 
Dr. O said:
:no: $35/hr would barely cover my overhead.
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And this would be my problem because?
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You should want some quality instructors to be available... who want to teach, and can keep teaching instead of jumping for a better job.
Even here in TX you'll pay a plumber more than a CFI...
Trying to start a family on a CFI's budget is NOT a great place to be. I've seen that several times so far.

Ryan
 
80 dollars is a bit excessive in my opinion. Max Tresscot faa's CFI of the year a number of years ago charges 80 an hour, and I'll tell you what I'd pay it. I wouldn't however pay for a 300hr wet behind the ears CFI for 80. If you are looking for the cheapest certificate expect to get what you pay for!
 
Dr. O said:
:no: $35/hr would barely cover my overhead.
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And this would be my problem because?
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Obviously it is not your problem. But if you think the rate is too high, who is making you pay? And if nobody is MAKING you pay that rate, then WHAT is your problem?

I really don't understand this whole discussion. Did the government say there can only be one flight school and you MUST use them and pay their rate? Or are you free to compare pros and cons (quality, location, price etc) and choose the one best for you.

Personally, I don't want to use an instructor that feels he can only compete on price, and in order to pay his rent and feed his kids he needs to take on too many students. I want a skilled instructor that gives me quality time and is happy about it.
 
I really don't care what an instructor cost as long as they ad value to the flight.

If an instructor said they are $200 an hour, but my money would be refunded if I didn't think I it was worth it, I'd try it. Anyone who makes a claim like that wouldn't be in business if they weren't any good.

When you hire them outside of seeking a rating, too many of them are just along for the ride. I paid a guy once to do an IPC who other than saying what approaches we'd fly, never said a word. He did say at the end how only charging $60 per hour wasn't enough to make a decent living. I thought, that isn't bad pay for a passenger.:)
 
Don't always blame the instructor. When the local flight school raised their instruction rate from $40 to $50 per hour, the instructor's cut went from $20 to $20. :confused:
 
CFIs can chime in here, but here are some of my thoughts:

If a CFI charges $50/hr, how much to they keep and how much do they pay the school?
If they are self-employed, they pay about 15% payroll tax instead of an employee's 7.5%.
Someone has to pay their insurance and other expenses.
I have never known a CFI that was actually able to fill out every hour on their schedule. Add in No-Shows and they may only charge 4 or 5 hours per day.
There are "bad weather" days when CFI's can't charge.

So I can see that $50/hour (which sounds like $2,000 per week or over $100k/year) easily translating into about $35-$40k, which would probably qualify them for food stamps. I think most CFIs are drastically underpaid. I congratulate those that are able to charge appropriately.
 
olasek said:
Walked today into some SF Bay Area flying club and inquired about their aircraft. They do have a very nice rather high-end inventory of single engine aircraft available for rental. But I did not expect to hear $80-$85 per hour in instructor fees. Isn't it a bit excessive, I wonder what you think.
Click to expand...

At JYO (Washington DC area), I pay $68/hour for instruction with Aviation Adventures. I could reduce that to $58/hour by flying with a less experienced instructor, but I find the extra $10/hour to be well worth it. When I was working on ratings and flying less expensive aircraft, I would look carefully at the cost of the instructor. But after flying with a variety of instructors, I am willing to pay the money to get good instruction. This is especially true for more expensive aircraft, where the cost of the instructor is a relatively small percentage of the total bill.

Ryan
 
SkyHog said:
I'm assuming you're a CFI??

Anything over $35, and you're being robbed.
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No, I'm not a CFI. I am a professional, however, and respect paying a professional an appropriate wage for the services they provide. Someone who is helping to ensure that I am properly trained and current to safely fly myself and my family is worth a lot to me.

$35/hr, when $10-$20/hr of it goes to the FBO, doesn't represent a reasonable wage for a professional CFI. The problem is that many CFIs don't consider themselves professionals.
 
My CFII gets $28/hr. I write him the check myself, the flying club takes none of it. As an independent contractor, he is free to teach in personal aircraft too.

I think thats reasonable and even cheap. Our area does have relatively low costs of living though. I'd expect to see $50-$60 hr at least in a high cost area like SF.

Being almost done with my IR I am seeing a need for a "graduate" level course in instrument flying. My current CFII is knowledgeable but I have zero actual at this time. Well, 0.1
 
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All of you are hitting on some good ideas as to why rates are set the way they are. California, although I've never lived there, are known for higher prices. I personally would never see an instructor around Nebraska for $80 an hour but that's because of the type of local economy we are in. At the same time, California has higher living costs than Nebraska therefor we can manage being a lower price. Costs are also set up in two different ways. Instructors that do it on their own usually charge somewhere between $25-45 an hour but many times do flying when they don't have their normal jobs to do and are also responsible for their own insurance, advertising and sometimes the cost of owning the plane. Other instructors work for a flight school where the school sets the rate and the instructor doesn't have much say in the matter. This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it. The company covers the instructor, plane, and often times student insurance costs, they also cover advertising which is NOT cheap! What that means is the instructor doesn't get much of the money you pay for his time. This stinks for the instructor and we do wish we could get more but at least we have an idea of where it's going. For example; our flight school charges $54 for instructors and I get an average of $24/hour of that. There are no guarantees of our schedule. It could be jam packed or slow as heck. (Thus, Low vs High paycheck) Most instructors in this situation get a second job which is why I fly charter part time. Instructors in colleges have it worse. It's awesome to only have to pay about $25-35 for a CFI, but they get $12!! I had both good and not so good CFIs who got the same pay. Long story short, don't think for a minute that instructors are getting rich off of teaching you. Most of us do it because we love it and in hopes to work towards something that will advance our own career.

If I were in your shoes, I'd do a flight at more than one place. A higher paying instructor could be an absolutely awesome guy/gal you'll never forget or the worst one in the state. Don't be afraid to find out what else makes the school good or bad such as insurance coverage, lower rate incentives, mx on planes, availability, etc.
 
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Rates in the Midwest (with quality professional instructors and good equipment) are generally around $35 for primary students and $40 for instrument. Must be paying much more in California because the sky is bluer, the snow is whiter, blah, blah, blah :eek:)
 
weilke said:
Is that per Hobbs hour or per hour of his time ?
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At PAO I got charged instructor time at $75hr while I was filling out over 2 hrs worth of needless documents then proceeded with the most excessive checkout I have ever experienced so I would "know the Bay Area airspace".:mad: I'd drop a bomb on that place if I had the opportunity.
 
Henning said:
At PAO I got charged instructor time at $75hr while I was filling out over 2 hrs worth of needless documents then proceeded with the most excessive checkout I have ever experienced so I would "know the Bay Area airspace".:mad: I'd drop a bomb on that place if I had the opportunity.
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Otoh, if you fly in an aircraft that has the hobbs linked to airspeed, squat switch or rpm>1200 and the instructional rate is tied to hobbs time alone, it can be a reasonable deal. I have had both of those deals 50/hr 'raw' time and 75 hobbs. In the end, it works out to be the same.

The OP mentioned that the club has 'higher end singles', if any of those are Cirri the instructor also has to somehow recoup whatever he paid to get his factory instructor blessing. Also, if he is independent and insured, there is overhead associated with this.

What is the hourly rate for a plumber in the bay area ?
 
MoltenLava said:
Must be West Valley Flying Club. They do have a large selection of aircrafts, but the instructors charge Palo Alto rates. Red Sky Aviation in Livermore where I trained from charges $97 for C172M and $45 for instructor. Oakland Flyers and California Airways at Hayward seems reasonable as well, although I don't have any experience with them.
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At West Valley, instructors set their own rates. Currently it varies from $40 - $100, with the majority in the $60 - $70 range.

http://www.wvfc.org/instructors.htm...ax_results=all&ins_sort=6&ins_search_results=
 
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Henning said:
At PAO I got charged instructor time at $75hr while I was filling out over 2 hrs worth of needless documents then proceeded with the most excessive checkout I have ever experienced so I would "know the Bay Area airspace".:mad: I'd drop a bomb on that place if I had the opportunity.
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They do love their paperwork. I put up with it because, of the rental places I have tried at PAO, they are the ones who do the best job of keeping up with the squawks. (I haven't tried Advantage Aviation, however.) If the commute weren't so horrible during rush hours, I would probably fly out of RHV instead.

The club is obviously not well set up to accomodate walk-in business. If I had known how expensive it was going to be, I wouldn't have suggested them for your trip. :(

If they are going to accept that type of business, they really should at least inform people of the paperwork requirements up front, so that a person could fill out the paperwork on their own time, instead of while a CFI is sitting around charging you money. And they should give people a realistic idea of the costs ahead of time.
 
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SkyHog said:
Anything over $35, and you're being robbed.
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I charge $50 for my time whether you're using me as a CFI, pilot, or anything else aviation related. I do give a discount for a full day rate. I don't have a problem finding people who realize the value I provide them for instruction, pilot services, or whatnot. I don't have time to deal with people who are simply looking for the lowest cost. They typically won't be people I want to fly with, anyway.

Since you feel my price constitutes robbery, I won't be instructing you, and that's fine by me! :)
 
n12365 said:
At JYO (Washington DC area), I pay $68/hour for instruction with Aviation Adventures. I could reduce that to $58/hour by flying with a less experienced instructor, but I find the extra $10/hour to be well worth it. When I was working on ratings and flying less expensive aircraft, I would look carefully at the cost of the instructor. But after flying with a variety of instructors, I am willing to pay the money to get good instruction. This is especially true for more expensive aircraft, where the cost of the instructor is a relatively small percentage of the total bill.

Ryan
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Same area, the less-experienced instructor takes less than half of that $58, before taxes.
 
My CFII charges $40/hr. And that goes directly to him. No middleman involved. I don't think that is excessive at all.
 
Dr. O said:
:no: $35/hr would barely cover my overhead.
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And this would be my problem because?
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If you wanted to hire him, it would be your problem because he needs to make a profit from his work. If you didn't want to hire him, then it wouldn't be your problem.
 
weilke said:
Otoh, if you fly in an aircraft that has the hobbs linked to airspeed, squat switch or rpm>1200 and the instructional rate is tied to hobbs time alone, it can be a reasonable deal. I have had both of those deals 50/hr 'raw' time and 75 hobbs. In the end, it works out to be the same.

The OP mentioned that the club has 'higher end singles', if any of those are Cirri the instructor also has to somehow recoup whatever he paid to get his factory instructor blessing. Also, if he is independent and insured, there is overhead associated with this.

What is the hourly rate for a plumber in the bay area ?
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Sorry, $790 to check out in a 172 in an area I lived and owned a Travelair in for nearly 3 years is freaking excessive. The real problem is the dearth of rentals. In the end with the trip to San Diego and airline tickets included, I would have been cheaper to just fly the 310 to SF, pick her up, do the SD trip and back then fly it home.
 
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Nick -- you're only being "robbed" if the money is forcibly taken from you.

I do a flat $200 rate BFR and have been told, "You're way too cheap!"

I'm fine with that -- I get to fly in different -- and very nice -- airplanes!
 
Henning said:
Sorry, $790 to check out in a 172 in an area I lived and owned a Travelair in for nearly 3 years is freaking excessive.
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That sounds like milking it.

85/hr hobbs to do a Cirrus/Avidyne/G1000 checkout with signoff that satisfies the insurance company done by a instructor who carries his own insurance would imho not be excessive.
 
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Henning said:
Sorry, $790 to check out in a 172 in an area I lived and owned a Travelair in for nearly 3 years is freaking excessive. The real problem is the dearth of rentals. In the end with the trip to San Diego and airline tickets included, I would have been cheaper to just fly the 310 to SF, pick her up, do the SD trip and back then fly it home.
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Crap! :hairraise:
 
weilke said:
Yes it is excessive.

85/hr hobbs to do a Cirrus/Avidyne/G1000 checkout with signoff that satisfies the insurance company done by a instructor who carries his own insurance would imho not be excessive.
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I have no problem with $85hr if the instructor is bringing $85 an hour worth the whole time they are billing me. Charging me $150 to sit and drink coffee in an earlier time would have cost her a set of tires and likely an engine for her car.
 
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Henning said:
I have no problem with $85hr if the instructor is bringing $85 an hour worth the whole time they are billing me.
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That is the point I was trying to make.
 
MoltenLava said:
Must be West Valley Flying Club. They do have a large selection of aircrafts, but the instructors charge Palo Alto rates.
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You are close but this is not Palo Alto airport. I am not very comfortable in giving away club's name. I am neutral on the subject whether this rate is excessive, I simply wanted to hear different opinions.

WingWalker said:
80 dollars is a bit excessive in my opinion. Max Tresscot faa's CFI of the year a number of years ago charges 80 an hour,
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About 2 years ago Max's rate was either $90 or $95. I heard it directly from him.
 
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Interesting discussion. I went through four different flight schools and five different CFIs before finding what I feel is the right one. Along the way, the prices were all over the place, as well as the quality of instruction and condition of the planes. Right now I'm paying $53 an hour for my CFI's time and a little more for the airplane than I expected, but it seems well worth it. I guess that's the bottom line: if you're learning and are happy and feel relatively safe, then it's not a rip-off. I know it's a cliché, but sometimes you really do get what you pay for.
 
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