Excessive Annual Repairs, or Not?

carrollm

carrollm

Filing Flight Plan
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Camarillo, Calif.
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SoCal_Matt
I recently switched to a new shop for my 182L annual. I was shocked in the number of items they found on a plane that had been very clean on eight previous annuals. The required repairs most concerning are the wing strut and wing root cuffs (plastic covers over strut wing/fuselage joints,) which although they have no new cracks and nothing has every progressed past the stop-crack holes in the 8 years I have owned the plane, they are saying these are safety issues and all 4 must be replaced. Also of concern are the aluminum elevator end-caps, which they indicate are bending up slightly on the left elevator training edge and down on the right elevator. They indicate this is also a safety of flight/rigging issue and must be replaced. Seems a little extreme since they have been like that the whole time I have owned the plane and it flys straight and true. Just wondering if others would also question if these truly are "safety" concerns that must be repaired during the annual. .
 
Some shops follow the letter of the law exactly, some use common sense. Sounds like this one is a rule follower which isn't a bad thing but can suck for people with older airplanes. In your case I don't see either of those issues as reason to not sign off an annual.
 
Whenever you change-shops,you have to expect,the new mechanic ,is going to find some maintenance items that they consider to be important. Always good to try the shop with some general maintenance ,before giving them the annual.
 
carrollm said:
I recently switched to a new shop for my 182L annual. I was shocked in the number of items they found on a plane that had been very clean on eight previous annuals. The required repairs most concerning are the wing strut and wing root cuffs (plastic covers over strut wing/fuselage joints,) which although they have no new cracks and nothing has every progressed past the stop-crack holes in the 8 years I have owned the plane, they are saying these are safety issues and all 4 must be replaced. Also of concern are the aluminum elevator end-caps, which they indicate are bending up slightly on the left elevator training edge and down on the right elevator. They indicate this is also a safety of flight/rigging issue and must be replaced. Seems a little extreme since they have been like that the whole time I have owned the plane and it flys straight and true. Just wondering if others would also question if these truly are "safety" concerns that must be repaired during the annual. .
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carrollm:
Unfortunately, going to a new aircraft mechanic is no different than going to a new car mechanic, except there are not as many options.

If he defines his "safety" issues as "airworthy" issues then you are not left with but two options.

I've always recommended that if you need to change maintenance providers, fly over and meet them. Walk around your aircraft with him and point to things to get his input. Talk is cheap. Afterwards you'll have a good idea which road he'll take in the future. Good luck.
 
carrollm said:
I recently switched to a new shop for my 182L annual. I was shocked in the number of items they found on a plane that had been very clean on eight previous annuals. The required repairs most concerning are the wing strut and wing root cuffs (plastic covers over strut wing/fuselage joints,) which although they have no new cracks and nothing has every progressed past the stop-crack holes in the 8 years I have owned the plane, they are saying these are safety issues and all 4 must be replaced. Also of concern are the aluminum elevator end-caps, which they indicate are bending up slightly on the left elevator training edge and down on the right elevator. They indicate this is also a safety of flight/rigging issue and must be replaced. Seems a little extreme since they have been like that the whole time I have owned the plane and it flys straight and true. Just wondering if others would also question if these truly are "safety" concerns that must be repaired during the annual. .
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Now really, wouldn't it be nice if your annual was done in your hangar by a freelanced A&P-IA.
Where when you didn't like what they were doing, you could tell them to get lost.
on your 8 previous annuals weren't you told the cuffs needed to be replaced?

I believe this guy has your number, they know you aren't going to spend a dime until forced to. JMHO
 
sounds like someone needs some used cuffs for his own plane and is trying to get someone else to fund them.
 
Bell206 said:
carrollm:
Unfortunately, going to a new aircraft mechanic is no different than going to a new car mechanic, except there are not as many options.

If he defines his "safety" issues as "airworthy" issues then you are not left with but two options.

I've always recommended that if you need to change maintenance providers, fly over and meet them. Walk around your aircraft with him and point to things to get his input. Talk is cheap. Afterwards you'll have a good idea which road he'll take in the future. Good luck.
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this case reminds me of an eagle I saw today. he was setting on a gooses's neck, the goose was still squaking but not for long.
 
I own a maintenance shop and am an IA. I would consider the items you mentioned as cosmetic issues and not airworthy issues, but I am not the one signing it off. You could put four mechanics in a room together and show each one the same problem. One might say that is an issue another will say no problem at all another one says you may want to repair this and the last is like oh my god you are so lucky to still be alive. This holds true for most maintenance items.

I have had customers not return to my shop because they thought they should not have to repair their camshaft. It was flat when I removed a low cylinder. I said sorry it has to be repaired. They told me their mechanic said it is fine. (Found out later he was an auto mechanic). Anyways, it sucks for owners sometimes but airplanes are expensive. I own 3 and figure this out everyday.
 
Better a little too much maintenance than a little too little, I think.
 
I would ask them to complete their annual and have them provide a list of discrepancies, then find a second opinion. Those fairings aren't a "safety issue".
 
Bell206 said:
I've always recommended that if you need to change maintenance providers, fly over and meet them. Walk around your aircraft with him and point to things to get his input. Talk is cheap. Afterwards you'll have a good idea which road he'll take in the future. Good luck.
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THIS. Get to know them first before you put your airplane in their hands.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Tom-D said:
Some one has a kid in college .
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I have a kid in college. I don't think the strut cuffs are a big deal. The elevator thing might be something, might be nothing. Don't paint with such a big brush!

eman1200 said:
sounds like someone needs some used cuffs for his own plane and is trying to get someone else to fund them.
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Really? :rolleyes:
 
JAWS said:
I have a kid in college. I don't think the strut cuffs are a big deal. The elevator thing might be something, might be nothing. Don't paint with such a big brush!
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They are a big deal if you have to pay for them for cosmetic reasons only. 4 of them total are close to 800 bucks.
 
JAWS said:
I don't think the strut cuffs are a big deal.
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Neither do I. thus the statement.
When you use the split kind of cuff, they are an owner do.

I do believe there is more to this owner and their IA than is shown in this thread.
 
carrollm said:
I recently switched to a new shop for my 182L annual. I was shocked in the number of items they found on a plane that had been very clean on eight previous annuals. The required repairs most concerning are the wing strut and wing root cuffs (plastic covers over strut wing/fuselage joints,) which although they have no new cracks and nothing has every progressed past the stop-crack holes in the 8 years I have owned the plane, they are saying these are safety issues and all 4 must be replaced. Also of concern are the aluminum elevator end-caps, which they indicate are bending up slightly on the left elevator training edge and down on the right elevator. They indicate this is also a safety of flight/rigging issue and must be replaced. Seems a little extreme since they have been like that the whole time I have owned the plane and it flys straight and true. Just wondering if others would also question if these truly are "safety" concerns that must be repaired during the annual. .
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If the two most concerning items for you are these, you should be so lucky. These items are relatively cheap and easy to replace.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Pay them for what has been done. Put your airplane back together and take it somewhere else.
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And they will tell ya,, "you are not allowed on my hangar floor." bye see ya.
 
JAWS said:
My comment was meant that I don't think I would demand that they be replaced as the IA, unless they are falling apart.
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As an IA I can tell you that I will not sign off the annual as airworthy, for any thing I feel isn't right.
It's really up to me.
 
The items have discrepancies, yes. If you fix the items now you shouldn't have to think about them again for a long time.

$800 is really not much, in airplane money.

Do you have maintenance records for the stop drills? If you don't, maybe the new guy doesn't want to accept responsibility for work someone else approved.
 
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The difference between a nice plane and a mediocre plane is details like the ones you listed. It sounds like the new shop has a high standard for maintenance. If that suits you? Fix the items. If not? Find a mechanic who has lower standards.

A new shop relationship is like any other relationship. You need to learn the other's preferences and they yours. Establishing what you do and don't want would be a good place to start. Maybe this relationship is right, maybe not. You aren't going to fix it on the internet.
 
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Could be worse. You could be encountering this new shop pick of nits problem with a Malibu Jetprop, like someone I know. He did not know AMU's are issued in double digit denominations. Silly rabbit.
 
GlennAB1 said:
$800 is really not much, in airplane money.
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While I agree with you to an extent, $800 is REAL money. No reason to **** away $800 on something that doesn't need to be done and is just cosmetic (if that's the case). This kind of attitude (the "it's only $800, that's not much for airplanes") is part of what leads to outrageous pricing and shops taking advantage of owners.
 
Aerodynamic fairings are more than just cosmetic. I've said this before, aircraft owners should be required to have an A&P since they are primarily responsible for their airplanes airworthiness.
 
I'll ask the OP again:

Do you have maintenance records for the stop drills? If you don't, maybe the new guy doesn't want to accept responsibility for work someone else approved.
 
George Mohr said:
Better a little too much maintenance than a little too little, I think.
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But what about the wrong maintenance? Money being spent on this isn't being spent on (insert other *not-quite-airworthiness* item here) (assuming that your budget isn't unlimited).

*could also include training, more flying, avionics upgrades, any number of things that could increase safety more than fixing something that isn't broken
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Pay them for what has been done. Put your airplane back together and take it somewhere else.
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Winner! Thread can be closed now;)

You guys whine over little stuff ... go to a "boutique" shop that specializes in your AC and see if you can get out with less than a 4K list:confused::eek:
 
scottfromboston said:
But what about the wrong maintenance? Money being spent on this isn't being spent on (insert other *not-quite-airworthiness* item here) (assuming that your budget isn't unlimited).

*could also include training, more flying, avionics upgrades, any number of things that could increase safety more than fixing something that isn't broken
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Yeah, wrong is never good. Its a judgement call what is "right" or "wrong". If you dont feel that you can discuss these items with your shop, its time for a new shop.
 
Some shops are perfectionists, some shops are realists, and some shops are junk.

Sounds like you found the local perfectionists.

There’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s often a shock if you take an airplane with really minor stuff like the cuffs into a place that’s maintaining creampuffs. It happens.

We take our airplane to a realist who also maintains an entire fleet of Cessnas flying at the flight school he now owns. We have some stop drilled cracks on our cuffs.

We alternated a few years ago to the semi-perfectionist shop on our local field and they DID find a few things the other place overlooked or thought could go a little longer, but I call them semi-perfectionists because they didn’t try to make the items into some safety issue that didn’t exist, and they listed them as optional.

We did all of them, because in the end, we don’t own an airplane to fly the equivalent of a clapped out rental, and other things WILL break, so fix the stuff today.

This year we are back with our usual across town realist and he still wanted certain things done, and we did them, including my nice brand new right side tire from me stupidly sliding the nice Goodyear during a landing when training for the Commercial ride. I did it.

But he replaced it with a good quality non Goodyear tire he likes and knows from the service life at the flight school and saved us some bucks — he didn’t even bother calling to ask if we wanted to match the old Goodyear, he just put it on, saving us all time. We trust him and know that tire will last a bejillion landings the way we (usually / are supposed to) fly and land it.

We had one minor squawk he said was okay and he couldn’t get parts for, but he’d happily order in and we could stop by as soon as the part was in and he’d replace them. Not an airworthiness issue.

So yeah... some shops will go full “everything must be perfect like it just came off the assembly line” even on plastic fairings, and others won’t. Just take the airplane somewhere else if the perfectionists aren’t your “thing”.

And a note: If you do use perfectionists, as someone pointed out, more can sometimes be better. And after you get past the first few rounds, they’ve got the airplane up to their standard and then the costs settle back in and aren’t any worse than any other place.

The semi-perfectionists at the one shop here told us they had seven A&Ps VOTE amongst themselves about the play that had developed in one of our aileron hinges and it was a 4/3 vote. They still gave us the option not to replace it for one more year. We replaced it that year. No point in waiting.
 
My first thought after reading the first post is the only squawks questioned were some worn out fairings? Surely this inspector wrote up a pile of other stuff that would be questioned too but for whatever reason we only know about the fairings. There is more to the story I think.
 
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