wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
The words "race to the bottom" apply as the industry in the US turn in record profits.
Etihad Airlines LOOSES 2 Billion Dollars
- Thread starter Art VanDelay
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Lindberg
Final Approach
Does Emirates have unions?
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Aztec Flyer
Rhetorical question, I presume.
The Persian Gulf airlines are run by an army of expatriates. They are all guest workers, every last one of them. Even James Hogan, the former CEO of Bahrain based Gulf Air and Abu Dhabi's Etihad.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Indeed. I also assume that if the pilots deliberately delayed flights to make a point, somebody would get a hand chopped off.
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Aztec Flyer
It's not quite that bloody. You get an immediate escort to the airport, put on a plane to your home country, your residency visa cancelled and the applicable Ministry arranges to have your household goods packed in a container and shipped to you after the fact. That's for doing something offensive in the eyes of the Ruling Family. If it's something deemed to have broken the law, that's a different matter entirely.
mtuomi
En-Route
Cut $100k/year off the top 12+ year captain pay, and the legacy airlines could serve caviar to everyone. And the pilots would still receive an above industry average pay.
It's not just the ME3. Lufthansa serves caviar (the real stuff, not the fake american stuff) in their first class. They have a private terminal in Frankfurt, with MB/Porsche driving you to your plane after your personal assistant informs you that it is time to board. BA has a couple of private lounges for their first class/most frequent fliers.
Both airlines turn a nice profit without any unfair government handouts. Difference is - those airlines seem to want your business, US3 couldn't give a damn.
United is an embarrassment in every single way, they hate their customers, even the premium ones. US domestic transcon in first with only crackers to eat, not even for purchase. Good going, UA. (SFO-ATL redeye). AA has decent ground experience and they actually care about their frequent fliers, but their hard product just isn't competitive. DL has a comparable business class product to BA/LH, but economy is pure torture, they also hate their frequent fliers.
It's easy to blame others, but the fault is with your management and your absolutely insane pay rates for top captains. There's no reason why a 12-year captain turns 300+k a year. Every other competitor, anywhere else in the world, pays less than half, for same or better safety/punctuality.
So stop blaming the ME3 boogeyman, European airlines beat the crap out of US3, and they do it without the handouts, they do it simply by having a better product.
Larry in TN
En-Route
Here's an article detailing how the ME3 handle their employee relations.
http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/the-truth-about-the-luxury-of-qatar-airways/
http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/the-truth-about-the-luxury-of-qatar-airways/
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Kayoh@190
Jeez...Spirit must have an incredible product.
If you think cutting pilot pay will increase the quality of what the US3 provide - you don't understand this industry.
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
Correction: you don't understand Wall Street.
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Kayoh@190
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
Wall Street got it's way with JetBlue: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-jetblue-bag-fees-legroom-20141120-story.htmlGood point.
mtuomi
En-Route
That was just a comment on how the US3 _COULD_ afford to provide same level of service as their foreign counterparts. It will never happen, obviously. Even if the pilot pay is cut, it will just go to managements/shareholders pockets instead of making the flight experience better. The management have decided their product is "good enough", and have every excuse in the planet why they can't "compete" with foreign carriers.
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
SkyDog58
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Canis Non Grata
One of the US airlines mentioned in their in-flight magazine that the loss of each flight to a Mid East airline costs 1500 US jobs. I also note that same airline purchases airbus planes.
KSCessnaDriver
Pattern Altitude
People wonder why, in general, 121 pilots aren't pro-GA. Its the attitude shown in this whole thread. To be honest with you, the more I'm in 121, the more I don't care what happens with GA.
Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
Tariffs !
Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
Gimme a freaking break !!!
You REALLY think they got some kind of super secret management juju whereby they can make A380s and 747-8s work on a TENTH the amount of passengers hauled ????
I know none of you have any sense of national pride but cmon !
Yeah the flight attendants treat you great - they've only been working there for two years or less and after about three they're being replaced. Wish we could do the same but we have all kinds of feel good PC laws that just plain don't let us do that. We used to have the flight attendants weighed and upheld to strict height & weight standards - nope that's not politically correct - can't do that.
So if American, United and Delta all can't make 747s and A380s work it's all because we're so mean to our customers and make their feelings hurt - gosh if only we could have the super secret management know how of the ME carriers - RIGHT !
Please tell me you're not that obtuse.
mtuomi
En-Route
You've never flown the airlines I mentioned by name, have you? BA and Lufthansa, last I checked, are not ME carriers.
Not to mention Singapore and Cathay Pacific. Awesome (non ME) service, they actually seem to like their customers too......
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Cluemeister
I'm not ADHD but I cringe every time I see LOOSES in this thread title.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
National pride? The way your company and the other US carriers treat customers, and all you can come up with is "national pride"? Have they changed the name of Delta to Delta Aeroflot?
You're upset because your airline offers a sub standard service on an international route where the competitors offer a superior service, and you want tariffs against them? Guess what, they'll tariff Delta to the point they simply won't sell a single seat, and as you have mentioned before, they have the cash to outlast Delta. And sure the US could do it to them, but guess who really loses that battle?
Demanding a foreign carrier drop their service levels to the pitiful condition of Delta is laughable.
Here's a hint, why don't you and your comrades demand your companies return to the good old days where customers mattered, and a bit of soap and water along with a vacuum cleaner goes a long way. While you're at it, get rid of the employees with the bad attitudes. Service matters, go ask Herb Kelleher.
Oh wait, you hate his airline model as well as his customers.
Ref: http://news.delta.com/delta-releases-full-length-video-educating-employees-gulf-carrier-subsidies
How many US jobs are lost when Delta chooses an Airbus product over a Boeing plane? Aren't the Airbus planes subsidized as well? If they want the support of Americans, they should support Americans in turn.
As an example of customer service- I just took a Delta flight. I checked my luggage...$25. Delta let people gate check luggage for free, and then gave them expedited boarding after the premium passengers for checking their "carry-ons". So someone who follows the rules get treated "lower" than those that found a way past the $25 luggage fee. I'm not blaming the pax...they know the system and how to "game" it. I haven't flown Delta enough to know their rules. Yes, its a small, petty thing which still leaves a sour taste.
Larry in TN
En-Route
The free gate-check only applies to your carry-on bag meeting the carry-on limitations. Bags checked at the ticket counter are normally larger than carry-on size limits and/or are in addition to the carry-on allotment of one carry-on and one personal item. If the bag you gate-check is oversized, or you are in excess of the carry-on allotment, they should charge you for the gate-check.
If you only have a carry-on to check, leaving you with only a personal item to bring onboard, then carry it to the gate for the free gate-check.
Hmmmm...then they really expanded the size of allowable carry-ons. A couple of them were larger than a carry-on roller-board should be.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Let me know when a U.S. Carrier decides they're only buying U.S. made aircraft, and we'll chat about "national pride". Seriously.
I only know of one that can claim that and they're not ME3.
"C'mon" indeed.
It's not that you don't have a decent point, but big picture, the companies already blew that point long ago. So it makes them look two-faced.
It makes your point look very weak. Not your fault, but it does.
American is the largest operator of Airbus 320/319 aircraft in the world. Delta and United at least seem to not be chock full of Airbus aircraft, but their fleets aren't "national pride" based decision making, either.
Frankly I don't care, they can buy whatever they want to buy... but rallying the troops behind "national pride" isn't going to work well, unless you're talking SWA.
And of course, SWA doesn't care too much about the whole thing, considering their routes.
And is there a single feeder that keeps the hubs full under code and paint sharing, for the big three, who operates a majority of America built aircraft? Off the top of my head I don't know of any.
denverpilot
Tied Down
By the way, anyone see the article today that the company making the Dreamliner bodies is consistently in the hole, and looks like they'll never show a profit?
All I've got handy is a screenshot from Osterower, one of the CNN airline coverage folk...
How's that going to work out? Looks ugly long term.
All I've got handy is a screenshot from Osterower, one of the CNN airline coverage folk...
How's that going to work out? Looks ugly long term.
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
I've seen a bunch of job listings somewhere recently for Spirit Aerosystems.
And then there is this:
https://www.thoughtco.com/government-financial-bailout-history-4123193
denverpilot
Tied Down
Good jobs?
Bailouts, tax breaks, guaranteed loans, DoD cost-plus contracts, forced purchasing of products or tax fines are levied, bankruptcy car washes, whatever... they're all made of the same cloth. Cooking the books to make things seem better than they are.
Could just handle it like healthcare. Fine any U.S. airline that doesn't buy Boeing. LOL! (Obviously I'm joking... for anyone without any sense of anti-statist humor.)
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
Not since the merger - there have been quite a number of frequent flyer cutbacks that make the program no more attractive than the others. Just try to get reasonable award seats on flights now. Oh, and they just implemented a maximum number of segments that are allowed on award booking.
Nope, I know a number of frequent flyers that have taken their business elsewhere (especially to Delta) figuring that if no airline is going to offer better benefits, they might as well fly with one that is somewhat more reliable than the rest & has somewhat better customer service.
mtuomi
En-Route
AA still does free BYOB for their elites, and free MCE seating. Perks like that. United doesn't give ANY preferential seating (not even exit rows) to *G pax.
AA also has Flagship Lounges which are great if you fly via JFK, LAX etc.
I do admit, Delta has improved a lot, the problem is, they are SkyTeam, and ST airlines generally are crap.
Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
Both subsidized as well. Just not as blatantly as the ME carriers. And I have actually flown Lufthansa as was not impressed at all. Same cranky old flight attendants that we have !
Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
Ok, so we just treat people that way because we enjoy doing so - is that what you're saying. And they run bigger planes with fewer seats than us just because they have some magic formula that all of the WORTHLESS Harvard business school grads can't seem to figure out ???!
Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
Ok, that's fine. If folks want to give their money to countries that dance in the streets whenever an American dies - who am I to stop them ?
mtuomi
En-Route
Just as subsidized as UA/AA/DL etc.
I've got nothing against your cranky old flight attendants, some of them are actually quite funny. It's UA's service concept that I absolutely hate. Redeyes with zero food items, 10 across seating in planes designed for 9, seat selection rules, lounges, etc etc.
Lufthansa is great. Got to love real caviar on a plane.
20160618_163921 by , on Flickr
Doc Holliday
En-Route
No, what I'm saying is the culture your company has developed and cultivated has led to the employees showing their disgust of the customers, and your management team, those brilliant Harvard business school grads are only interested in profit and offering a "take it or leave it" business model.
They (ME3) have realized service sells and customers are willing to pay for it.
You talk about national pride. How about your company buying Boeing instead of Airbus?
Cooter
Ejection Handle Pulled
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Cooter
Loose = internet spelling for lose. I'm not sure I've ever seen it properly spelled. I just let it go, it's a mute point.
BrianNC
En-Route
I see what you did there.
I'm assuming since it's in all caps in the title, it was an intentional mispeling.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Folks want to give their money to the company that takes the best care of them and gets them to where they want to go.
But I have no idea how you responded with this, when my entire post was about the big three handing money to Europe for large percentages of their equipment, and then pretending international routes are a place to all of a sudden make their stand for "national pride".
Seems hypocritical to the extreme to tell passengers they should support the industry and call politicians telling them not to allow international competition, while they're still buying internationally built equipment to stuff those passengers inside of.
Lead by example, as they say. If it's a national pride thing, cancel the Airbus orders and buy only Boeing. Otherwise the point is weakened considerably.
If the profit from me choosing a U.S. carrier is sent via wire transfer to France the second it hits the U.S. carrier's account, to pay for another Airbus, I'm not buying that it's a "national pride" issue, is all I'm saying.