Ethanol free mogas

Even if you ask; I do not recall a single gas station counter attendant whom I would trust for such technical information. No disrespect to counter attendants but I'd really doubt anything they have to say about this.
 
Nice! I test every load, doesn't matter what the placards say.
 
rbridges said:
How would you test it?
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Get a container (doesn't need to be large, a fuel tester will work) and fill it half-way with water. Use a marker and mark the top of the water. Add gasoline, shake to mix well. Let the layers settle. If the top of the "water" is now higher than the mark, you have ethanol in the fuel.
 
For anyone who has done this, how long does it take for the layers to settle enough that you can be confident whether or not the 'water' level has risen? I wouldn't think you could use a fuel tester to do this because you need to cap the jar with a lid and shake it without making a mess.
 
iflyvfr said:
For anyone who has done this, how long does it take for the layers to settle enough that you can be confident whether or not the 'water' level has risen? I wouldn't think you could use a fuel tester to do this because you need to cap the jar with a lid and shake it without making a mess.
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just a few seconds. You could just use your thumb to "cap" the top of the fuel tester (I'm not talking a GATTS jar here).

daansen-391s-fuel-tester-screw-driver.jpg
 
Another easy test is to put a drop of water based food coloring into a small sample of fuel. If it dissipates into the fuel, the fuel has alcohol in it, if it drops to the bottom of the sample jar, it doesn't.
 
Man, I don't like mogas in my cars. I can't imaging putting mogas in an airplane.
 
bdtaz said:
Another easy test is to put a drop of water based food coloring into a small sample of fuel. If it dissipates into the fuel, the fuel has alcohol in it, if it drops to the bottom of the sample jar, it doesn't.
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I find that method works if there is more than 5% ethanol. Less than 5%, it won't work. The question is now whether less than 5%, but more than 0%, is enough to make the gasoline unusable for our purposes.
 
There are websites that list real sources. Be careful of the one that is self reporting. Checked all those reported near me and all were incorrect....
 
We have a local gas station that has 87UL "pure gas", the standard stuff, standard diesel and off-road diesel. It can be hard getting in some days to get the 87UL for my A35. I test every time with the fuel tester pictured. They have to be making a killing....

For some reason, the A35 runs better on MOGAS.
 
rbridges said:
How would you test it?
Click to expand...

Put small amount of fuel in a clear container. Add one drop of water based McCormicks food coloring and mix. If the fuel contains alcohol the entire mixture turns the color of the food coloring. If the food coloring drops to the bottom in beads the fuel is non-alcohol. I find the darker food coloring works best.
 
Axtel4 said:
Put small amount of fuel in a clear container. Add one drop of water based McCormicks food coloring and mix. If the fuel contains alcohol the entire mixture turns the color of the food coloring. If the food coloring drops to the bottom in beads the fuel is non-alcohol. I find the darker food coloring works best.
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Cap'n Jack said:
I find that method works if there is more than 5% ethanol. Less than 5%, it won't work. The question is now whether less than 5%, but more than 0%, is enough to make the gasoline unusable for our purposes.
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The signs on the pump are meaningless. ~30 years ago, one of the Fly Baby club members decided the gas in the pump on 25 April didn't have ethanol, since the sign said it was added from ~1 November to 31 March.

And, of course, it had ethanol in it.

I filled the tank up to the brim with real gas to dilute it and flew the pants off the airplane to minimize the time the ethanol had to work on tank sealants, float valves, fuel lines, etc. The sacrifices I make for you kids.....

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
The signs on the pump are meaningless.
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Agreed to the point that the only meaning to a sign that says ethanol free is that it means it's worth testing. I wouldn't bother with testing otherwise because I'd assume if it doesn't say it's 100% gas, it probably isn't. But if it's advertised as ethanol free and I was in the need for some, I'd test. Always test. All hypothetical of course as I currently don't fly anything that uses it. Just my thoughts.
 
I would like to know which politician got suckered by the ethanol industry and demanded it be added to our gas so I could strangle him. While I have a good friend in Iowa he is not stupid enough to believe there are benefits from adding it to gas. Ethanol belongs in booze, not gas.
 
Norman said:
I would like to know which politician got suckered by the ethanol industry and demanded it be added to our gas so I could strangle him. While I have a good friend in Iowa he is not stupid enough to believe there are benefits from adding it to gas. Ethanol belongs in booze, not gas.
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Suckered, or paid off?
 
Them corporate farms need to sell some corn. Dated information, but 1/4 of the corn going to fuel? Wow!

...ethanol accounted for 27.3 percent of corn usage in 2011, according to the World of Corn report. The largest usage of corn remained feed and residual, at 36.3 percent. The 5 billion bushels of corn that went into ethanol production is down somewhat from the 5.021 billion bushels for the same use in 2010. Corn exports, on the other hand, dropped from 1.835 billion bushels in 2010 to 1.65 billion bushels in 2011.
 
Norman said:
I would like to know which politician got suckered by the ethanol industry....
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All of them. Iowa is the site of a very early primary in the presidential race. Nobody wants to tick off Iowa.

Ron Wanttaja
 
I posted this 8 years ago in a previous 0E thread. This is what I use. A test tube style rain gauge with a cork carved to fit. Fill to 1" with water and then to 4.5" with mogas. Shake, and when the mixture "re-separates" the water level will rise to 1.35" if the gas is 10E (10% of 3.5" = 0.35"). Quite noticeable to say the least. It only takes a few seconds for the water to settle out, works every time. My theory is that if there's so little ethanol in the gas that I can't notice the rise in the water level then it's not enough to do any damage to anything. I have played with different blends (by mixing avgas with 10E mogas) and can detect the rise down to about 1.5% which raised the level about 0.05".

rain-gage-jpg.16101


As an aside, after doing this test hundreds of times over the last dozen years I've come to the conclusion that the old theory of "you should wait 10 minutes after fueling to sump the tanks to allow time for the water to settle out" is complet BS. It separates in seconds in the "test tube." Sure it may take a bit longer in a 27.5 gallon tank but I'm confident that the tanks are ready to sump before you get the hose and ground cable reeled back in.
 
timwinters said:
I posted this 8 years ago in a previous 0E thread. This is what I use. A test tube style rain gauge with a cork carved to fit. Fill to 1" with water and then to 4.5" with mogas. Shake, and when the mixture "re-separates" the water level will rise to 1.35" if the gas is 10E (10% of 3.5" = 0.35"). Quite noticeable to say the least. It only takes a few seconds for the water to settle out, works every time. My theory is that if there's so little ethanol in the gas that I can't notice the rise in the water level then it's not enough to do any damage to anything. I have played with different blends (by mixing avgas with 10E mogas) and can detect the rise down to about 1.5% which raised the level about 0.05".

rain-gage-jpg.16101


As an aside, after doing this test hundreds of times over the last dozen years I've come to the conclusion that the old theory of "you should wait 10 minutes after fueling to sump the tanks to allow time for the water to settle out" is complet BS. It separates in seconds in the "test tube." Sure it may take a bit longer in a 27.5 gallon tank but I'm confident that the tanks are ready to sump before you get the hose and ground cable reeled back in.
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For the arithmetically-impaired, Briggs and Stratton sells test kits that are just capped vials that are calibrated to measure the ethanol percentage. You can usually get them for less than $5.00 from local B&S dealers or service centers. Same idea.

For what it's worth, for those in New York, I've never found ethanol in the ethanol-free gas that Mirabito sells at some stations. It's a bit on the pricy side, however, and usually is only 90 octane. That's okay for the 912 UL engines, but Rotax recommends 91 for the 912 S/ULS/ULSFR and 914 F/UL engines. I have no idea what other manufacturers specify.

Rich
 
timwinters said:
I posted this 8 years ago in a previous 0E thread. This is what I use. A test tube style rain gauge with a cork carved to fit. Fill to 1" with water and then to 4.5" with mogas. Shake, and when the mixture "re-separates" the water level will rise to 1.35" if the gas is 10E (10% of 3.5" = 0.35"). Quite noticeable to say the least. It only takes a few seconds for the water to settle out, works every time. My theory is that if there's so little ethanol in the gas that I can't notice the rise in the water level then it's not enough to do any damage to anything. I have played with different blends (by mixing avgas with 10E mogas) and can detect the rise down to about 1.5% which raised the level about 0.05".

<Image removed>

As an aside, after doing this test hundreds of times over the last dozen years I've come to the conclusion that the old theory of "you should wait 10 minutes after fueling to sump the tanks to allow time for the water to settle out" is complet BS. It separates in seconds in the "test tube." Sure it may take a bit longer in a 27.5 gallon tank but I'm confident that the tanks are ready to sump before you get the hose and ground cable reeled back in.
Click to expand...
If there is a lot of water in the gas, I agree with you, it will fall to the sump quickly. If there is only a little, it could take some time for the droplets to get to the sump as they are spread over the bottom of the tank. When doing liquid-liquid extractions in the lab, if there is too little water, I've observed it can take a little time to form two layers. I'll agree it's a bit of a stretch from the lab with solvents other than gasoline to a gas tank but I'll check the tanks first in a pre-flight, finish the rest of the pre-flight, and then sump.

Interesting about the Limit of Detection (LoD) that you measured. I found the dye test had a LoD of ~5%.
 
timwinters said:
As an aside, after doing this test hundreds of times over the last dozen years I've come to the conclusion that the old theory of "you should wait 10 minutes after fueling to sump the tanks to allow time for the water to settle out" is complet BS.
Click to expand...
You're right, it's BS...you should wait longer.

In 1984, I flew to a nearby airport and tanked up my C-150. I checked the sump, and there were tiny bubbles in the gas.

Had no idea what it was. Went into the airport office and showed everyone my sample, including the instructor who had checked me out in the airplane. No one had a clue.

Checked another sample. No change. Mounted up, took off. About five minutes after takeoff, the engine burped. It then gradually got worse. I firewalled the throttle and grabbed for altitude while I could. When the engine finally died, I was one mile from the runway with 1500 feet to play with. Deadsticked successfully.

Sumped the tank, and the "bubbled fuel" was gone...solid water. Took out a couple of gallons of water before fuel appeared in the sample.

The other airport's fuel tank was underground; its fill point was a low spot, and the seal on the cap was bad. And this was Seattle in the winter. I was the first customer that day to fill up and leave; the earlier customers were based there and had parked after filling. They had water, too.

My theory is that the fuel-tank pumps thoroughly mixed the water into the fuel as it was pumped. Took some time to precipitate out; the vibration of the engine probably helped. In any case, it was probably at least ten minutes after filling up before I started the engine, and I had time enough to get to altitude and be well on my way to my home drome.

Yes, when I do the ground test for ethanol, the water comes out relatively quickly. But don't count on that for well-mixed fuel and water.

Ron Wanttaja
 
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