Maintenance on an experimental can be done by anybody, it doesn't have to be an A&P. An A&P (or the builder if he has the repairman certificate) is only required for the annual condition inspection. Also parts don't need to be certified aircraft parts.
Ercoupe as first airplane?
- Thread starter Todd82
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Maintenance on an experimental can be done by anybody, it doesn't have to be an A&P. An A&P (or the builder if he has the repairman certificate) is only required for the annual condition inspection. Also parts don't need to be certified aircraft parts.
OkieFlyer
En-Route
One of my friend's friends had just recently finished building an RV-12 when I was doing my PPL training. As a soon to be pilot, I had my eye on bigger faster airplanes, and thus had little interest in little two-seaters, particularly homebuilt ones with Rotax engines. One day, he said jump in and let's go for a ride, and I agreed. Let me tell you, that was some of the most fun I've had in an airplane! It ain't a rocket ship, but is light on the controls, is responsive and crisp, and the visibility is fantastic. I was maybe a 30 hr trainee at the time, and had no problems at all flying that airplane. We did, among other things, stalls, steeps, and a few T&Gs, and it was a real hoot. On my last landing, I think I had it down and stopped inside of 400-500 ft. Not saying that's awesome, but good for a newbie on a first flight in an RV, and a testament to how easy it is to handle. That is the only RV I've flown, but I would recommend it in a heartbeat to a pilot of any level.
Vance Breese
Cleared for Takeoff
As I read the FAR it appears to me anyone can do extensive work on experimental amateur built aircraft even if they are not the original builder and don’t have a repairman’s certificate.
In my opinion the annual condition inspection may be done by an A&P without IA.
It appears to me EAB aircraft are not required to use certified parts.
How much money that saves would depend on the circumstances.
gsengle
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Gsengle
So there is some advantage, and of course things like avionics can be cheaper, but it depends on your skill and willingness to work on your own plane and the degree to which you have a relationship with an A&P willing to supervise you...
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Todd82
Line Up and Wait
She'd have to make it inside the plane to see that one lol
Vance Breese
Cleared for Takeoff
It appears to me that an A&P does not need to supervise the work on an experimental amateur built aircraft.
I am only interpreting the FARs in response to your original question and subsequent statement; I am not opining that it is a good idea.
See the videos below. It would seem that the 'coupe can be used for more than afternoon sightseeing if you're so inclined. I suspect that you'd have to limit your luggage and be careful with W&B, but people tour the country (and even the world) on motorcycles, so the limitations and the coziness are probably manageable.
Vance Breese
Cleared for Takeoff
AsI interpret the FARs other than the annual condition inspection; an A&P does not need to be involved in the maintenance of an EAB aircraft.
It appears to me there are no sign offs for work performed unless it entails a major change and then an FAA representative or a designated airworthiness representative signs it off in a very limited way.
I feel for a first aircraft a certified aircraft like the Ercoupe is a better choice.
gsengle
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Gsengle
Vance Breese
Cleared for Takeoff
As mentioned before an A&P needs to have done a condition inspection in the last 12 months for an EAB to be airworthy.
As I interpret the FARs an EAB aircraft is not required to be inspected after owner performed maintenance even without a repairman’s certificate for the aircraft.
In my opinion the FARs are not well written and this is subject to interpretation.
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Meet the Fokkers
Those videos are great.
Pretty much shows that people make the adventures, not the planes.
Pretty much shows that people make the adventures, not the planes.
No "subject to interpretation"; the FARs are clear on this point. Anybody can do maintenance with no A&P supervision or signoff required. Only the annual condition inspection requires an A&P, need not be an IA, or the original builder if he has the repairman certificate.
For a major change, all that's required is to notify the FAA and get their approval of your proposed test area and time (usually 5 hours).
Whether that's advisable for a first aircraft depends on the mechanical skill level of the owner and what support he has from other experimental owners.
For a major change, all that's required is to notify the FAA and get their approval of your proposed test area and time (usually 5 hours).
Whether that's advisable for a first aircraft depends on the mechanical skill level of the owner and what support he has from other experimental owners.
Vance Breese
Cleared for Takeoff
Thank you for your opinion of the FARs covering experimental amateur built aircraft. Your experience as to their clarity appears to be different than mine.
I had a representative of the local FSDO require an A&P sign off on removal of the starter before he would allow me to hand prop the aircraft for an air show. This is not how I interpret the rules but the FAA owns the airspace during a waiver and I wanted to fly so I complied.
A different representative of the same FSDO felt that even though they didn’t find anything amiss that there needed to be a log book entry of the inspection of the fuel injection after an emergency landing before he would sign off on the emergency. There were no damage or injuries in the emertancy.
When I changed the engine in my experimental amateur built gyroplane from a Lycoming O-290 and a two blade wood and composite propeller to a Lycoming IO-320 and a three blade wood and composite propeller the local FSDO sent out two inspectors over 100 miles and spent a half a day looking over the project and gave me a new twenty five hour phase one.
I mentioned that I feel the rules are subject to interpretation because I don’t want to mislead someone into imagining that I have black and white answers to questions about the FARs. I have found that different FSDOs interpret the FARs in different ways.
Friend and I are looking at buying a 'Coupe. The earlier versions (415-C) are LSA (GW<=1320) and others are not.
Lots of good info here http://ercoupe.org/index.php
Cheers
Lots of good info here http://ercoupe.org/index.php
Cheers
FormerHangie
En-Route
In 1953, my father bought a half share in an Ercoupe as his first airplane. He had just mustered out of the Air Force, where he had been the radio operator in a B-29. It's interesting to me that some 64 years later there are still pilots considering buying one as their first.
There are a surprising number of them still for sale.
There are a surprising number of them still for sale.
FloridaPilot
Pattern Altitude
I hope we can all find that airplane and have that BIG smile on our faces. Unfortunately it's different for everyone. I have been in an Ercoupe and I was amazed how I can get in and out. I'm 240 Lbs wide shoulders ask someone to let you sit in one...you will be surprised.
The ercoupe that I posted above has rudder pedals, some people that own them get them custom installed and approved.
OkieFlyer
En-Route
Not sure if you were talking to me or not. I have actually been in one with intent to get checked out in it. The instructor and I got in and I quickly decided I didn't want to fly it that bad, and we climbed out, lol. I'm a pretty large man though, so I'm sure it's fine for most folks. The flight school where I trained uses that ercoupe for LSA training. Has rudder pedals.
Glenn D
Pre-takeoff checklist
One of the engineers here at work has one, it has rudder pedals, and a O-200 for power... He is a tall skinny kid, ( younger than me ) and he takes it all over the place,, camping at small dirt strips, Oshkosh last year... I have never flown in one but have liked the look. When I was going to get back into flying, I wanted one, but my wife wanted 4 seats so we can fly with our grown kids, and grandkids.
I also thought an RV-12 would be great, but the 4 seat thing again... So a Cherokee 140 with a 180hp upgrade it was, for a great price. 300 to 400 mile trips and local bug smashing it all works out well at 150mph speed, and 8.5 to 9 gph keeps the cost in line. I really like the load capability also.. 2 up and we can load a lot of stuff out back.. I want to try camping sometime also, and it can carry the load.
As for the price, it was very cost efficient. As a 140 / 180, VFR aircraft with 2900 hrs and 500 on the engine, 23k was less than used Jeeps I was also looking at!... can put bicycles and other stuff in the back and have transportation when we get somewhere... It woudl also carry my Honda 50 motorcycle... (it is street legal) but I look funny riding it and will not carry 2...
So don't rule out the 4 seater just because you think the extra seats are wasted... the space is great.
A 'Cupe was at our airport, KEMT, Saturday for lunch, it did look like a fun airplane!.. when the couple got up from lunch, and walked out to take off, it was apparent that they loved all about flying low and slow, for that $100 burger...
I also thought an RV-12 would be great, but the 4 seat thing again... So a Cherokee 140 with a 180hp upgrade it was, for a great price. 300 to 400 mile trips and local bug smashing it all works out well at 150mph speed, and 8.5 to 9 gph keeps the cost in line. I really like the load capability also.. 2 up and we can load a lot of stuff out back.. I want to try camping sometime also, and it can carry the load.
As for the price, it was very cost efficient. As a 140 / 180, VFR aircraft with 2900 hrs and 500 on the engine, 23k was less than used Jeeps I was also looking at!... can put bicycles and other stuff in the back and have transportation when we get somewhere... It woudl also carry my Honda 50 motorcycle... (it is street legal) but I look funny riding it and will not carry 2...
So don't rule out the 4 seater just because you think the extra seats are wasted... the space is great.
A 'Cupe was at our airport, KEMT, Saturday for lunch, it did look like a fun airplane!.. when the couple got up from lunch, and walked out to take off, it was apparent that they loved all about flying low and slow, for that $100 burger...
Z06tink72
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My z06 is faster than your C172
I have about 55 hours in an Ercoupe. Most of what's been said already about them is true. My thoughts:
Crosswind landings can be tricky.
You can pitch down to descent by sticking your hand up
One guy here mentioned his being cold in the winter. The one I fly has a TON of heat coming thru the firewall. Its really uncomfortable in the summer without the windows at least halfway down. In the winter even I don't fully close them. Just keep them open 1-5" or so to regulate the cockpit temperature.
Crosswind landings can be tricky.
You can pitch down to descent by sticking your hand up
One guy here mentioned his being cold in the winter. The one I fly has a TON of heat coming thru the firewall. Its really uncomfortable in the summer without the windows at least halfway down. In the winter even I don't fully close them. Just keep them open 1-5" or so to regulate the cockpit temperature.
Ken Thompson
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Kensterfly
Lots of comments about Ercoupes from people who have never flown one. Ercoupe is a great first plane. What other plane can you get for $20k-$25k with tricycle landing gear that will easily cruise 100kts on five gallons of fuel per hour AND let you cruise at 100 kts (or more) with the canopy open? What other airplane will let you land, no sweat, with 15-25kt cross winds? Very few planes with rudder pedals will let you do that. An Ercoupe will do it all day long. And landing crabbed? So? Airliners do it all the time. Early 707 pilots trained on Ercoupes to learn how to land crabbed in cross winds.
They are easy to fly. I had been out of flying for almost 40 years. I got my BFR in a 172 a few months ago. Last month I bought an Ercoupe. Last week I flew it home from Dallas. First cross country in 40 years. Took off and flew in the DFW Bravo, then with Flight following all the way home. Easily climbed to 7500 well above the cloud layer and cruised home at 120 MPH, GPS verified, at 2350 RPM. I was doing 126 mph at one time and was not redlined. It will out fly a 152 any day of the week. It's fun to fly! (Full disclosure: My C85 is "stroked" with the crank, pushrods, and cylinders of an 0-200 and it will run off and leave a 150 or Tomahawk.)
Land at a fly-in in a 150 or Cherokee and no one will even look up. Come in in an Ercoupe and you'll be swarmed by people who want to check it out.
The main thing is to know your mission. The Ercoupe is actually not a bad cross country plane. Cruise about 100 kts, canopy wide open. But if you need to carry more weight, not an instrument platform, etc., look for something else. But as a first plane, it's a blast.
They are easy to fly. I had been out of flying for almost 40 years. I got my BFR in a 172 a few months ago. Last month I bought an Ercoupe. Last week I flew it home from Dallas. First cross country in 40 years. Took off and flew in the DFW Bravo, then with Flight following all the way home. Easily climbed to 7500 well above the cloud layer and cruised home at 120 MPH, GPS verified, at 2350 RPM. I was doing 126 mph at one time and was not redlined. It will out fly a 152 any day of the week. It's fun to fly! (Full disclosure: My C85 is "stroked" with the crank, pushrods, and cylinders of an 0-200 and it will run off and leave a 150 or Tomahawk.)
Land at a fly-in in a 150 or Cherokee and no one will even look up. Come in in an Ercoupe and you'll be swarmed by people who want to check it out.
The main thing is to know your mission. The Ercoupe is actually not a bad cross country plane. Cruise about 100 kts, canopy wide open. But if you need to carry more weight, not an instrument platform, etc., look for something else. But as a first plane, it's a blast.
The average pilot usually wants speed,altitude ,and modern avionics. If you want to fly low and slow,with the roof open ,with no aspirations to move up the recouped ,would be a fine airplane,very economical to fly,with ease of maintenance.
Todd82
Line Up and Wait
I wouldn't say "no aspirations to move up" but I was talking about a first plane. Sure, someday I'd like to own a Mooney... But as a 100 hour vfr guy that's alot of plane for me right now, and mostly beyond my budget for the time being.
zaitcev
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Pete Zaitcev
Ercoupes don't carry 2 standard adults either. In any case, I could not fit in one - not even in Alon. It's a fun little airplane for a small pilot who owns a hangar full of tools.
I was in your shoes three or four years ago, and I bought an experimental. The one I got is significantly slower than Ercoupe, but I only paid $12k for it. I'm sure you can find something beating Ercoupe for the price of a 150. A local guy was selling an Alon for $20k when I looked at it. You can get a 1990s Kitfox with a 4-stroke for that money.
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Joey4420
Pre-takeoff checklist
As a sport pilot, I just purchased an Ercoupe. I love the look of them, cost isn't bad to purchase, the only real issues that I have read is corrosion. And as a 35 hour sport pilot insurance is only $780 a year. I looked at Experimentals and equal insurance would run me $3000 a year. The insurance cost alone covers most repairs the plane may need that I can't do under an A&P supervision (as a sport pilot I can't work on a certified aircraft). Of course joining the local EAA Chapter and being an active member I am sure will allow me the benefits of having help. Sure the useful load isn't very high, but I don't plan on hauling more than myself most flights. So it fits my mission.