EPA accuses Volkswagen, Audi of evading emission laws

SCCutler said:
I bet you were never in one where the engine could overpower the brakes, were you?
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Here's the deal.

There is a difference between the static and sliding coefficients of friction. That's just the way it is.

If the car is stopped and you press the brake and then press the gas, no problem. You ain't go'n nowhere. A 6 year old can keep the car from moving.

If you are at 70 MPH and mash the gas, you are very likely to run out of brakes before you get to a stop unless you have the presence of mind to stand on the pedal with both feet and never ever let go. (I've done the experiment (closed course (privately owned proving ground), professional driver(me(yes, I have the appropriate certificates)), blah, blah, blah), so that's how I know.)

Two different worlds, two different results.

Now, for a disclaimer - it was not an Audi. But the static vs. sliding coefficient of friction effects do not depend on brand names.
 
weilke said:
...If the standard is supposed to apply in day to day operation, it needs to be written in a way that requires on the road testing.
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I agree with you. However, the claim has been made that what VW did is already prohibited. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. :dunno:
 
Palmpilot said:
I agree with you. However, the claim has been made that what VW did is already prohibited. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. :dunno:
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So far, I have seen mostly evidence that their N absorbing cat didn't work as well as advertised in real world power cycles. So far, we have an allegation that VWs programming of the ECU amounted to a 'defeat device', whether that would hold up if VW challenged it is difficult to say. Winterkorn threw himself onto his sword just a bit too eagerly. Their approach may just have been a risk and crisis management decision, regardless of merit. I know folks at various levels in the VAG/Porsche empire, I guess I'll have to wait until christmas to get the back story.


Remember. This is the company that came up with a second luxury brand to compete with their existing luxury brand. Corporate intelligence isn't their thing.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
Once my Excursion did it in NYC and I not only coasted to safety, but into a parallel parking spot (obviously I went in forward) with no power steering. But bad drivers hit trees and sued GM.
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Yes, but the biggie on the GM switch problem was the airbags were disabled when the switch went off. So when said bad driver hit the tree/car/house/whatever, the airbag didn't go off. THAT is what most of the suits were about.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Yes, but the biggie on the GM switch problem was the airbags were disabled when the switch went off. So when said bad driver hit the tree/car/house/whatever, the airbag didn't go off. THAT is what most of the suits were about.
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If the drivers were good, they wouldn't have crashed. At that point, airbags are irrelevant.
 
weilke said:
So far, I have seen mostly evidence that their N absorbing cat didn't work as well as advertised in real world power cycles. So far, we have an allegation that VWs programming of the ECU amounted to a 'defeat device', whether that would hold up if VW challenged it is difficult to say. Winterkorn threw himself onto his sword just a bit too eagerly. Their approach may just have been a risk and crisis management decision, regardless of merit. I know folks at various levels in the VAG/Porsche empire, I guess I'll have to wait until christmas to get the back story.


Remember. This is the company that came up with a second luxury brand to compete with their existing luxury brand. Corporate intelligence isn't their thing.
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Please let us know what you find out.

So what do you think was West Virginia University's "axe to grind"?
 
Palmpilot said:
So what do you think was West Virginia University's "axe to grind"?
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The CAFEE people will not rest until we all travel in a hydrogen powered hybrid bus that travels at a constant speed of 45mph.
 
BiffJ said:
I'm still trying to figure out why the ecofreaks have such a hard on for diesels. They're more efficient then gas and produce less emissions per gallon and even less per mile. They whine about carbon emissions then complain that diesels capture most carbon as a solid.....soot. Soot is now the evil cancer causing agent that will kill us all. Do they prefer the carbon to be released as carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide? The nitrogen oxides produced by diesels are perhaps the most visible pollutants and create the brown clouds but they are less toxic to us and planet by the eco logic when compared to the carbon and hydrocarbons coming from gas engines. I think they're pretty silly about the whole thing but it just shocks me that they get so worked up about the small things and then spend millions on crap that creates more of the problems they hate.

Frank
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Because Prius and Subaru aren't offered in diesel.
 
weilke said:
The CAFEE people will not rest until we all travel in a hydrogen powered hybrid bus that travels at a constant speed of 45mph.
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Are you saying they faked the results? If so, the original study only cost $50,000, so it wouldn't cost much for VW to repeat the tests and prove that the original results were wrong.

As for the CEO falling on his sword too quickly, this has been going on for over a year. The original study was published in May of 2014, and EPA notified VW of the problem that same month.

By the way, Bloomberg has a good summary of how the problem came to light, including the Europeans' motivation for commissioning the tests:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ons-cheating-found-by-curious-clean-air-group
 
The complete story would be interesting to find out.
VW did seem to come and admit to the fact they cheated fast. They could have played the we do not know what is going on It passes all the test for us.
There has to be a lot of code involved and I am guess it would be hard to find or prove it was done intentionally.
 
ron22 said:
The complete story would be interesting to find out.
VW did seem to come and admit to the fact they cheated fast.
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If they were indeed told a year ago, they didn't react fast. They waited until CARB and the EPA got to them. If they figured out that they were not compliant, they could have fixed this with service bulletins and updates before being forced to.
 
ron22 said:
The complete story would be interesting to find out.
VW did seem to come and admit to the fact they cheated fast. They could have played the we do not know what is going on It passes all the test for us.
There has to be a lot of code involved and I am guess it would be hard to find or prove it was done intentionally.
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Not with the paper trail laid out and wrapped up with a pretty bow for the EPA.

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...legal-software-use-in-diesel-cars-report-says

Bosch warned VW about illegal software use in diesel cars


Robert Bosch warned Volkswagen in 2007 that it would be illegal to use engine management software at the heart of the diesels emissions scandal in production cars, German newspaper Bild am Sonntag said.

VW was also warned by one of its own engineers in 2011 about illegal emissions testing practices, a report in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung's Sunday edition said, citing initial results of a VW internal investigation.

Bild am Sonntag said Bosch supplied diesel software to VW for test purposes but it ended up in vehicles on the road. Bosch wrote to VW saying that such use was unlawful, according to the paper's report...


Cost-cutting at heart of crisis

Bernhard and Krebs argued that the only way to make the engine meet U.S. emission standards was to employ in the engine system an AdBlue urea solution used on larger diesel models such as the Passat and Touareg, according to the report.

This would have added a cost of 300 euros ($335 in today's U.S. dollars) per vehicle -- a sum that VW finance officials said was too much at a time when a companywide cost-cutting exercise was under way...


The engine then ended up in VW Group diesels with its engine software manipulated to fool diesel emissions tests in the U.S.
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... and the rest are fessing up as well.

http://jalopnik.com/audi-announces-u-s-models-affected-by-dieselgate-1733671207

Today Audi announced which of its models feature the same cheating device used by Volkswagen to pass international diesel emissions standards. Included is none other than the 2010 Green Car of the Year, the Audi A3 TDI.

As reported earlier today, the Volkswagen Dieselgate scandal includes about 2.1 million Audi models worldwide, with about 14,000 making it to America.

According to Audi of America, via Automotive News, about 11,600 of the affected models are 2010 to 2013 A3 TDIs which had the first-generation VW “clean diesel” engine.

The remaining vehicles, assumedly around 2,400 models, are current-generation 2015 model year A3 TDIs, which use urea injections to reduce emissions unlike the older diesel engines - though they are still noncompliant with EPA standards due to the cheating mechanism. There was no 2014 model year for the Audi A3 in America.
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Finally the truth is coming out. VW was only the first company to be caught.
Let's see where it will stop.
We haven't had a big economic "downturn" (fiasco, crisis) since what, 2008? Let's make another one. Together. With joint effort.
May the clueless panic ensue! :D
 
BigBadLou said:
Finally the truth is coming out. VW was only the first company to be caught.
Let's see where it will stop.
We haven't had a big economic "downturn" (fiasco, crisis) since what, 2008? Let's make another one. Together. With joint effort.
May the clueless panic ensue! :D
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Ummm... you do realize that Audi and VW are one and the same company right? VW owns Audi, Porsche, Bentley, Lamorghini, Skoda, SEAT, Scania, Ducati, and Neoplan. So yeah, I expect this scandal to include Audi here in the US and only them as it seems to be about only diesels.

Overseas, depending on country, it may also include SEAT and Skoda. VW made a really bad, bad business decision and now their dreams of global supremacy will not likely happen for a long, long time. For once, cheating and lying isn't the fastest way to the top. Only this once though. I'm sure the strategy is fully intact elsewhere in the business world. :(
 
They do not own BMW and the press link I posted nearly a week ago now, mentioned that BMW is also under scrutiny.
 
Never understand the love for BMW in the US.
 
Dav8or said:
Ummm... you do realize that Audi and VW are one and the same company right? VW owns Audi, Porsche, Bentley, Lamorghini, Skoda, SEAT, Scania, Ducati, and Neoplan. So yeah, I expect this scandal to include Audi here in the US and only them as it seems to be about only diesel
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VW -- or more accurately VAG does not own Porsche. It's the other way around. They are separate companies with Porsche owning a controlling shares of VAG. Just to clarify this.

For the purpose of this scandal, it hardly makes any difference, however
 
genna said:
VW -- or more accurately VAG does not own Porsche. It's the other way around. They are separate companies with Porsche owning a controlling shares of VAG. Just to clarify this.
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Well, a company called 'Porsche Automobil Holding SE' owns the majority of stock of VW. There is more to the holding than just the old Porsche car and engineering company.

What we know as the Porsche car company is 'Dr Ing h.c. Porsche AG' which through some trusts and LLCs is also owned by the Porsche Holding.

It is not as simple as 'Porsche bought VW'. It is probably more accurate to say that VW management took control of the entire organization using the Porsche voting rights as a tool.

The two companies had been very close before that, but it was a mix of manufacturing contracts and personnel interchange. The merger in 2008 just made it formal.

For the purpose of this scandal, it hardly makes any difference, however
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In terms of manufacturing and importation paperwork, VWAG and Dr Ing h.c. Porsche AG are separate entities. While the PR fallout is going to hit Porsche as well, in terms of fines or orders to fix particular engines, this will affect only VW and Audi (in the US) and Skoda/Seat (in europe).
 
denverpilot said:
They do not own BMW and the press link I posted nearly a week ago now, mentioned that BMW is also under scrutiny.
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Are there any common engines shared between them? Or joint engineering? I am asking, not accusing, as I don't keep up with the European manufacturers at all. ;)
 
N747JB said:
Are there any common engines shared between them? Or joint engineering? I am asking, not accusing, as I don't keep up with the European manufacturers at all. ;)
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I don't either. Overpriced and not worth it.
 
Scrabo said:
Never understand the love for BMW in the US.
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BMW's are excellent and i think you should buy one. Or two. (since i used to work in engineering there and still am sitting on some stock options)
 
I saw a commercial last night with this slogan on it. I think it has a slightly different meaning now.

Truth-in-Engineering.jpg
 
denverpilot said:
Are the four interconnected circles supposed to be particles coming out of the tailpipe? ;) ;) ;)
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They represents VAGs management structure. Circles that touch somewhat but the one on the left has no way of knowing what the one on the right does.
 
JHW said:
BMW's are excellent and i think you should buy one. Or two. (since i used to work in engineering there and still am sitting on some stock options)
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We have two. But being 12-18 years old (and bought in the double digits on age), probably not helping your stock options any.
 
weilke said:
They represents VAGs management structure. Circles that touch somewhat but the one on the left has no way of knowing what the one on the right does.
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That certainly sounds plausible!
 
The emissions center for VW is in Oxnard Ca. Looks like the first class action lawsuit has been filed local to it.

Edit: I was told it was local to it from a friend who works there, looks like it was in northern Ca
 
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Police raid VW headquarters as probe mounts in Germany, US

Volkswagen's new chief Matthias Mueller has said four employees have
been suspended, adding however that he did not believe that top
management could have been aware of the scam.

He said in an interview published Wednesday by the Frankfurter
Allgemeine Zeitung that engine development is "a complex process" and
that these were tasks in which "a director is not directly involved".

Horn too said Thursday that it was not a decision of top management to
install the defeat devices. It was a "couple of software engineers who
put (the devices) in," he told US lawmakers.​
 
Im sure it will do wonders for VW's market capitalization for them to admit their management is ineffective.

Like hell there were no software managers.
 
As part of my family fleet, I own three late model VW's and always had one the driveway since my first 66 Bug in the 70's. I have owned 15 different VW's over the years...each one has dropped 3-4 k in value on KBB in the last 30 days...My dealer I talked to yesterday was willing to discount and additional 3k if I would stay with Volkswagen...but probably not going to happen...it reminds me of a Eos Convertible I got rid of last year when they showed me that the factory specs allowed for a quart of oil burn every 1000 miles and it was going through a quart every 1500 miles....I chalk it up to the same corporate honesty on a car with less than 30K miles...
 
Palmpilot said:
Volkswagen's new chief Matthias Mueller has said four employees have

been suspended, adding however that he did not believe that top

management could have been aware of the scam.



.​
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Translation: top management had a meeting to discuss how many engineers to throw under the VW Bus. They settled on four.
 
MAKG1 said:
Im sure it will do wonders for VW's market capitalization for them to admit their management is ineffective.

Like hell there were no software managers.
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There would have to have been at least some middle level managers in on it, IMO.
 
It's hard to tell if the upper guys knew about it or not, I lean toward yes. I would say there was probably a lot of pressure on the engineers to develop a low NOx engine and it sounds like they couldn't do it. I would say that large program bonuses were involved plus much pressure from above to keep the performance specs up while keeping unit cost down. That said, I have a 2003 mercedes that has a dyno mode and I'm thinking this is probably not an issue isolated to Volkswagen.
 
As far as a solution, I thing the EPA should fine Volkswagen enough to make it hurt and issue waivers for the affected cars, allowing them to exceed the limits. They should also be subjected to supervised in situ testing that they pay for. The affected are still probably many times cleaner than most of the 5 year older diesels driving around today. Any further penalty or fix will just screw over the poor slobs who bought these cars.
 
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