EPA accuses Volkswagen, Audi of evading emission laws

bartmc said:
My 2015 Jetta TDI has a Urea system.
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You are safe. Those aren't under the gun.

And, should come as no shock, the EPA isn't the agency that found this.

Mock, European managing director of a little-known clean-air group, suggested replicating the tests in the U.S. The U.S. has higher emissions standards than the rest of the world and a history of enforcing them, so Mock and his American counterpart, John German, were sure the U.S. versions of the vehicles would pass the emissions tests, German said. That way, they reasoned, they could show Europeans it was possible for diesel cars to run clean.
German and his group were actually trying to prove exactly what Volkswagen has been claiming for years: that diesel is clean. They asked West Virginia University for help. The school’s Center for Alternative Fuels, Engines and Emissions had the right equipment -- a portable emission measurement system to stick in the car trunk, attached to a probe to shove up the exhaust pipe. German’s group, funded mostly by foundations, didn’t.
Testers drove the monitor-equipped diesels from San Diego to Seattle because if Volkswagen had gamed the emission test, they couldn’t be sure how, German said.
 
kkoran said:
I'm sure that, in addition to the huge fine the government levies, there will be a class action suit asking for damages for the increased fuel cost related to the software change as well as the decreased resale value of the vehicles.
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Hell...my 2011 Chevy truck with a window sticker that says 22 MPG gets about 16. And that's on 2 lane roads doing 55 to 60 MPH...I won't even mention what it gets on the interstate doing 80.

Well over 25% below window sticker mileage...

...I don't see any class action lawsuits over that one!
 
Matthew said:
Potentially something like a $35k fine per vehicle.
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Thanks, that works. A half million cars X $35k per car = $17 million.

If so, that will be much more than GM paid for the ignition switch fiasco.
 
timwinters said:
Hell...my 2011 Chevy truck with a window sticker that says 22 MPG gets about 16. And that's on 2 lane roads doing 55 to 60 MPH...I won't even mention what it gets on the interstate doing 80.

Well over 25% below window sticker mileage...

...I don't see any class action lawsuits over that one!
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The 22 mpg on the sticker was based on the government-standard test. Your mileage may vary.
 
The EPA is a predatory, anti American agency, against the needs of the populace, and only out for their own growth. The Clean Air and Water Act has been allowed to be abused by our government and created a overly restrictive, fascist organization in the EPA.
 
docmirror said:
You are safe. Those aren't under the gun.
...
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I've not found anything that says I'm not.

It does seem they tried to go the cheap route and not install the urea system.

It appears that 2015 was the first year urea became standard on the Jetta.

So, if it's standard, why does every article I read just say "2015 Jetta"?
 
Anthony said:
The EPA is a predatory, anti American agency, against the needs of the populace, and only out for their own growth. The Clean Air and Water Act has been allowed to be abused by our government and created a overly restrictive, fascist organization in the EPA.
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May you breathe smoke. Drink wastewater. And enjoy it.
 
NoHeat said:
May you breathe smoke. Drink wastewater. And enjoy it.
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Yeah. That's it. Everyone has to be at one end of the extremes.

Go out on any warm day and look at a modern gas can, then get back with us
 
What I don't know:

The system was programmed to increase emission controls during testing, then decrease at other times. How much bad stuff actually gets out as a result?

I've heard numbers like 40x, but I don't know what kind of scale that is. Is that 40ppb vs 1ppb for something that's tested to 20ppb and only a problem when it reaches 500ppb? Or is it 4000ppm instead of 100ppm when the limit is 200ppm and it kills you at 1000ppm?
 
timwinters said:
One must wonder how Volkswagen thought they'd get away with this wothout it eventually being discovered.
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An engineering team, under pressure to implement new, unproven technology (NOx Trap - LNT) that they sold to upper management as a solution to implementing corporate strategy. Happens each and every day in various industries.
 
BigBadLou said:
fixing a lot of "broken" engines where idiots either blindly unbolted emissions equipment without reprogramming the ECM or got "smarter" and started plugging emissions control lines with anything they could find, especially in a way that cannot be easily seen. (ever seen a bolt stuck deep in a vacuum line?)
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Redneck hillbillies love their smoke tunes, DPF deletes, 4 inch exhausts, and anything else that makes their oversized POS trucks belch out more black smoke. I really wish the EPA would go after the Malones, EFILives, etc. of the world and bury them with enough legal costs to shut them down.
 
bartmc said:
So, if it's standard, why does every article I read just say "2015 Jetta"?
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The ECU in the 2015's may not be injecting enough urea (same with the Passats which had urea from the start). It's also possible that the ECU still has the cheat code installed, which is why both urea and non-urea VW 2.0L's were pulled into the list.
 
The Bugatti Veyron costs millions more to make than they earn from the sale, which is in the millions. Volkswagon subsidizes them so they can say they make the fastest car, or some such. So, everyone who purchases a Volkswagon participates in welfare for rich people.
 
steingar said:
The Bugatti Veyron costs millions more to make than they earn from the sale, which is in the millions. Volkswagon subsidizes them so they can say they make the fastest car, or some such. So, everyone who purchases a Volkswagon participates in welfare for rich people.
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Was there a point to this?

I bought a 2015 Jetta and not one person held a gun to my head and made me do it. And no government agency threatened to punish me if I didnt.
 
NoHeat said:
May you breathe smoke. Drink wastewater. And enjoy it.
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Yes, because I don't like OVERLY ZEALOUS, counterproductive regulation I want dirty air and dirty water. :rolleyes:
 
steingar said:
Yes, if you purchase a Volkswagon you are paying welfare for insanely rich people.
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First, it's Volkswagen.

Most car manufacturers build concept cars, or have factory racing teams, or invest in other industries. The purpose being investment in engineering, with the belief that some of that will apply back to bread and butter cars most of us poor folk drive. The DSG transmission is a great example of this. It's not exactly welfare. It's more R and D.
 
bartmc said:
I've not found anything that says I'm not.

It does seem they tried to go the cheap route and not install the urea system.

It appears that 2015 was the first year urea became standard on the Jetta.

So, if it's standard, why does every article I read just say "2015 Jetta"?
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Sorry, my mistake. I misread and misreported the info from a report found in Financial Times. It sounds like all the 2015 models are included in the effort include the urea based cars.

I'm wondering, do you plan to take your car in when there is a software fix/flash avail?
 
Clearly not a lot of native Southern Californians in this thread. A lot of hate for smog laws here, but if you grew up in Southern California, lived in, or frequently went to LA and travel there now, you see the results of the smog laws. You can see the San Gabriel mountains nearly all the time.

A friend of mine remarked that the smell of exhaust from vintage cars now makes him feel sick. When you drive behind a vintage car and you can easily smell that old vintage smog, it is hard to remember back when all the cars on the road smelled like that.

The smog laws work. Sadly the implementation and enforcement of the laws are kind of wacky, or criminal at times at least here in California. The state does abuse the law at times to pull in revenue.
 
ggroves said:
Redneck hillbillies love their smoke tunes, DPF deletes, 4 inch exhausts, and anything else that makes their oversized POS trucks belch out more black smoke. I really wish the EPA would go after the Malones, EFILives, etc. of the world and bury them with enough legal costs to shut them down.
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I live out in the lands of these idiot trucks. They really are the stupidest trucks ever put together. I put them in the same category as the low rider with it's circus hydraulics and tiny little wheels, or the urban whips with ridiculous stereos and 28" wheels on the Regal with the 60' turning radius and the ride of Conestoga wagon, or the tuner cars with goofy ass wings, air dams, holes poked in the fenders and fart can on the back, or the hot rodders with their enormous rear wheels jammed under the fenders, skinny ones up front, huge blower sticking out of the hood and cam that makes the car impossible to live with.

All these people are slaves to fashion. Take good vehicles, add a load of money and turn them into terrible vehicles. Why? Fashion. It's all about fashion and one upping the other guy. It's a hobby and it keeps some of them out of the bars and off the streets and at the very least it provides lots of employment and greatly helps the economy. I would hazard to guess far more than GA does.
 
ggroves said:
First, it's Volkswagen.

Most car manufacturers build concept cars, or have factory racing teams, or invest in other industries. The purpose being investment in engineering, with the belief that some of that will apply back to bread and butter cars most of us poor folk drive. The DSG transmission is a great example of this. It's not exactly welfare. It's more R and D.
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True, but most don't build specialty cars that they sell for a huge loss. And most of the technologies developed for the Veyron are ver, very specific.

You apparently like subsidizing insanely rich people. Good for you. Free country and all that. I choose not to do so.
 
Dav8or said:
I live out in the lands of these idiot trucks. They really are the stupidest trucks ever put together. I put them in the same category as the low rider with it's circus hydraulics and tiny little wheels,,,


I would hazard to guess far more than GA does.
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Me too. And it gets old real fast. Sadly, those truck are actually worse in most cases than your other examples which rarely spew as much particulate or NOx(the tough one to fix).

As for GA, lets not forget good friends that we are the last bastion of leaded gas burners in the nation, and we could be shut down just as quick as VW. :yikes:
 
Dav8or said:
Clearly not a lot of native Southern Californians in this thread. A lot of hate for smog laws here, but if you grew up in Southern California, lived in, or frequently went to LA and travel there now, you see the results of the smog laws. You can see the San Gabriel mountains nearly all the time.

A friend of mine remarked that the smell of exhaust from vintage cars now makes him feel sick. When you drive behind a vintage car and you can easily smell that old vintage smog, it is hard to remember back when all the cars on the road smelled like that.

The smog laws work. Sadly the implementation and enforcement of the laws are kind of wacky, or criminal at times at least here in California. The state does abuse the law at times to pull in revenue.
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My issue with much of EPA regulation is the somewhat arbitrary nature of it. You can force diesel engine makers to meet NOx standards in ppm, but it, in turn, forces them to be less fuel-effecient thereby burning more fuel and pumping more NOx into the environment. All because they have to hit a specific number . . . it's just often a forest for the trees situation.

I can cite a more personal example with the EPA for a facility my company purchased a few years back. We bought the company, found out they were using MEK and other solvents in their process, and had been doing so for the better part of the last few decades. It was a small, family-owned business so there was no EPA reporting or anything of that nature. So, being the good company we are, we self-report the situation and provide a cleanup plan. The EPA levies hefty fines and requires all sorts of public notice/commentary periods which we have to publish in the local newspapers and such. Nothing about the cleanup has been changed due to us contacting the EPA, just the levying of fines and bureaucracy along with lost time. That is my problem with the EPA in many instances: they often function only in a way to generate income for themselves.

The EPA serves an important role, and should exist simply because people and corporations don't always align their practices with the best interests of the environment. I just think they are far too overreaching and less helpful than they could be, just like most other government institutions.
 
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docmirror said:
Sorry, my mistake. I misread and misreported the info from a report found in Financial Times. It sounds like all the 2015 models are included in the effort include the urea based cars.

I'm wondering, do you plan to take your car in when there is a software fix/flash avail?
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Hell no. No emissions testing here :)

The whole fiasco is "meh, couldn't care less" to me. Sucks for VW and I have no doubt the EPA and other 'crats will blow this way out of proportion $$$$$
 
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steingar said:
Yes, if you purchase a Volkswagon you are paying welfare for insanely rich people.
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Again. Was there a point? We're discussing an "issue" with the control board on TDI equipped VWs.

Would you also like to discuss the price of rice in China?

Furthermore, your scenario doesn't match any definition of Welfare I've ever seen.

Even if it did, it's insanely stupid.

If you attend Ohio State, you're paying welfare for professors.

If you buy clothes, you're paying welfare for insanely rich clothing company owners.

If you eat food you're paying welfare for insanely rich food suppliers.

If you buy anything you're paying welfare for someone else.. unless they're taking a loss on it. In which case, they're probably hoping that loss will lead to more profits.
 
SoonerAviator said:
My issue with much of EPA regulation is the somewhat arbitrary nature of it. You can force diesel engine makers to meet NOx standards in ppm, but it, in turn, forces them to be less fuel-effecient thereby burning more fuel and pumping more NOx into the environment. All because they have to hit a specific number . . . it's just often a forest for the trees situation.

I can cite a more personal example with the EPA for a facility my company purchased a few years back. We bought the company, found out they were using MEK and other solvents in their process, and had been doing so for the better part of the last few decades. It was a small, family-owned business so there was no EPA reporting or anything of that nature. So, being the good company we are, we self-report the situation and provide a cleanup plan. The EPA levies hefty fines and requires all sorts of public notice/commentary periods which we have to publish in the local newspapers and such. Nothing about the cleanup has been changed due to us contacting the EPA, just the levying of fines and bureaucracy along with lost time. That is my problem with the EPA in many instances: they often function only in a way to generate income for themselves.

The EPA serves an important role, and should exist simply because people and corporations don't always align their practices with the best interests of the environment. I just think they are far too overreaching and less helpful than they could be, just like most other government institutions.
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Similar case to a former family friend - since passed away.

Years ago, he and his brother joined the Navy in WWII. Here in the middle of the US (s/w of Kansas City) was a Naval Air Station. Seems odd to have a NAS in the midwest, but they could train and send pilots to either coast that way. He and his brother moved here from the Dakotas (I think), liked it, and started buying acreage whenever they had a few bucks. After the war, they moved back and built on the land they owned. For a business, they either bought or started up a truck stop. That truck stop survived for about 30-40 years until it was bought out for highway reconstruction and a new strip mall. (This all happened since I've lived here, so I've watched it all occur.) Years of trucks parked on gravel lots at his stop meant years of oil and fuel in the top layer of soil. When he was bought out, the state/county/city, or whoever owned it suddenly 'discovered' the contamination and the EPA got involved. He, somehow, as the former owner, was declared to be responsible for the damage and was then fined or forced to pay for enough of the clean-up that it pretty much wiped him out to the point he had to sell off what land he still had. That property and cash from the truck stop sale was what he had planned on using for his wife's cancer bills. If you ever wanted to see a guy who's spirit was totally broken, that was the guy.
 
steingar said:
True, but most don't build specialty cars that they sell for a huge loss. And most of the technologies developed for the Veyron are ver, very specific.

You apparently like subsidizing insanely rich people. Good for you. Free country and all that. I choose not to do so.
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Personally, I just try to choose well-made cars and to not infuse too much politics into decisions about machines.

But hey, as we say in the Italian neighborhoods, saus-eeege his own.

Rich
 
Didn't the VWs actually pass the tests?

This will be very interesting to watch.
 
Matthew said:
Didn't the VWs actually pass the tests?

This will be very interesting to watch.
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Failed under real world driving conditions. Google is your friend.
 
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