Entering the pattern?

Ron Levy said:
In such places, even the wind socks aren't that accurate, but if there is one, you'll see it once you're in the pattern and can change your plan if necessary. But my point here is that you don't need ASOS/AWOS to tell you which runway traffic pattern to enter, and you can do that safely even without seeing the sock until you're in the pattern. Even without preflight winds, flags, trees, etc, if you have a radio and there's anyone at the UNICOM or in the pattern, you can get the wind from them from a lot farther out than you can see the sock. Or overfly the airport safely above pattern altitude. Or any of a dozen other options -- use your imagination and don't be a slave to one source of wind data.
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At our field there is a switch from morning east wind to afternoon west wind most days, probably 200 days a year or more.

It is not predictable when or if this switch will occur. If you want to land that time of day you can easily be wrong on which runway. Even when you 360 in the pattern to change runways you will likely end up wrong.

I realize your point is correct but there are places that are exceptions.
 
timwinters said:
But some are a tad bit small to sit on! :goofy:

toilet_pipe_by_pacifierboy-d48wl3m.jpg
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Need to pack that with some Labrador.:lol:;)
 
Ron Levy said:
In such places, even the wind socks aren't that accurate, but if there is one, you'll see it once you're in the pattern and can change your plan if necessary. But my point here is that you don't need ASOS/AWOS to tell you which runway traffic pattern to enter, and you can do that safely even without seeing the sock until you're in the pattern. Even without preflight winds, flags, trees, etc, if you have a radio and there's anyone at the UNICOM or in the pattern, you can get the wind from them from a lot farther out than you can see the sock. Or overfly the airport safely above pattern altitude. Or any of a dozen other options -- use your imagination and don't be a slave to one source of wind data.
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ANY TRAFFIC IN THE AREA PLEASE ADVISE

I though PoA was responsible for abolishing that?:D
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't remember suggesting the use of that radio call in the post you quoted or anywhere else, for that matter.
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But you have changed the premise of the debate three or four times now in an attempt to save face.
 
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Jaybird180 said:
ANY TRAFFIC IN THE AREA PLEASE ADVISE
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I never use this phrase but what I have started doing for the benefit of others is when I am in the pattern I just hold my mic down and repeat "I'm in the pattern" "I'm in the pattern"

I think it makes it easy on everyone.
 
Have not read the entire thread, since it is a duplicate topic covered many times before.

I virtually always (95%+ of the time) overfly the center of the field at least 500' above TPA, then fly clear of the pattern, descend clear of the pattern and enter 45° to the downwind leg. Been doing it that way for nearly 40 years and it pleases me.

I like:

To be able to look down at the airport to verify runways and look for wildlife and debris and taxiing aircraft from above.

To be able to see the windsock more clearly from above.

To be able to spot traffic more easily from above.

And to fly the rectangular pattern that works best for me.

I am always alert for pilots coming straight in, which is their legal right, and might be safer for jets or cabin class twins. Or pilots flying any sort of non-standard pattern.

But That's Just Me! (tm)
 
I am still hoping that flying over the field 500 feet below TPA and doing a climbing teardrop up to pattern altitude catches on.
 
timwinters said:
But you have changed the premise of the debate three or four times now in an attempt to save face.
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While our friend Ron has been known to wander into a twisty tiny maze of tiny twisted FAA opinion letters, I don't see that as being the case here.

He gave a pretty straightforward answer to the OP's question that is at least as sound as anything else suggested in this thread.

I'd make a straight-in If there was a reason why I had to fly the whole pattern, I'd enter upwind at TPA (no jinking/zigging -- there's no reason for a "45-to-upwind" entry), then turn crosswind, downwind, base, and final.
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There seems to be some kind of debate as to what to do if you are landing straight in on a checkride at an uncontrolled airport for which there no way to know the wind direction, but that's not a situation I've ever encountered, nor is that what the OP asked.
 
JimNtexas said:
There seems to be some kind of debate as to what to do if you are landing straight in on a checkride at an uncontrolled airport for which there no way to know the wind direction, but that's not a situation I've ever encountered, nor is that what the OP asked.
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Tim has worked very hard to construct a scenario in which there is no way to know wind direction short of looking at the wind sock, but I would point out that at the airports with really squirrely wind and only one wind sock, the wind direction at the sock is often very different than the wind direction at the touchdown zone, so even the wind sock is only a guess. An example of that is Georgetown DE (KGED) where the wind at the wind sock and ASOS device is due to buildings and trees very different from the wind at the approach ends of runways 4, 22, and 28. Runway 28 has its own sock near the touchdown zone, but thanks to trees, you can't see it until you turn final anyway. You may find that on short final, it's a better idea to go around and switch runways, but that won't help you deciding which runway traffic pattern to enter.

At the end of the day, runway selection as you approach an airport is an educated guess based on all available information, and my point has always been that there's a lot of information available besides the airport wind sock, so not being able to see the wind sock does not mean one is unable to make a reasonable choice.
 
I can verify that, despite the best efforts of POA, ATITAPA is alive and well in central NC.

Jaybird180 said:
ANY TRAFFIC IN THE AREA PLEASE ADVISE

I though PoA was responsible for abolishing that?:D
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Ron Levy said:
Tim has worked very hard to construct a scenario in which there is no way to know wind direction short of looking at the wind sock, but I would point out that at the airports with really squirrely wind and only one wind sock, the wind direction at the sock is often very different than the wind direction at the touchdown zone...
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I see this the same way as Ron.

I've run into ambiguous wind situations a number of times. Usually it's because the wind is basically light and variable.

The airplane will tell you if you haven't chosen the best runway to use, as other traffic in the pattern often will if their perception is different from yours.

In the end runway selection is each PIC's call at an uncontrolled airport. That's why they call it 'uncontrolled'.
 
JimNtexas said:
While our friend Ron has been known to wander into a twisty tiny maze of tiny twisted FAA opinion letters, I don't see that as being the case here.
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Hmmm...let's review shall we?

I've asserted one thing: That you don't know for sure what the winds are at your destination unless you observe the windsock thus straight-in approaches should be used with caution. In post #69 I said "Regarding how I'd fly the pattern. I'd make a direct entry into an upwind and then fly crosswind to downwind. That provides ample opportunity to look at the windsock and to also ensure there's no other traffic. Also, if the windsock tell you that you should use 27 instead of 09 then you're already on downwind,"

Ron first argued in post 80 that you can fly a straight in approach because "..there's always your preflight briefing winds, smoke, trees, flags, etc, to tell you which way the wind is blowing."

And then, in post 96 he says "you'll figure it out on downwind anyway, and then enter the pattern for the other runway more favored by the wind."

WHAT? How do you do that when flying a straight in?

I responded to that statement in post 97 with "well, now...if you go back and review...you'll discover that's exactly what I'm saying. That's why students should avoid straight-in approaches if there's not data on the field. Again, KFAM has an AWOS and is only 11 NM away from my home airport (H88) and there is often a significant difference between the two in both wind speed and direction...the Ozark "Mountains" (actually hills) create some funny wind eddies donchaknow."

Then in 98 Ron states "seeing that sock prior to pattern entry should not be 100% essential to the safe conduct of your flight."

To which I reiterated in 99 "On a windy day around here it definitely is. And these are just hills. I can't imagine how localized wind speed and direction is in "real" mountains...I'm confident that it's very localized though. One of the mountain boys might chime in on that topic.

i.e. I'm not buying your "you can always get it during a thorough preflight briefing" argument. That's just not the case at my home airport. I've seen the windsock standing straight out in almost the exact opposite direction as KFAM was when I passed over it coming home and I'm confident that there are hundreds of other airports just like mine (that have locally determined wind speeds and directions)."

And a couple of others chimed in on similar problems at other airports.

As an aside, I can take you to dozens of other fields in this area (in the hills of S MO & N AR) that are the same...Van Buren on top of a bluff...or Pettit Jean on top of a bluff...Turkey Mountain on top of a bluff...etc. etc. etc. And then there are the ones that are in the valleys near tall hills. Those can be more problematic yet. You better get a look at the sock at Bismarck, Mo. 2000' long with a tall hill immediately east. The wind is often blowing in the exact opposite direction as other area fields. And with only 2,000' to work with...

Then Ron comes up with the brilliant observation in post 117 "There is nowhere in the United States where surface winds are not forecast, and you can get them via DUATS, ADDS, or FSS. You can start here."

I really wanted to respond with "no sh*t?" as he was stating the obvious and that doesn't change the fact that two airports 10 miles apart can have windsocks standing straight out in opposite directions regardless of what the surface wind forecast is for the "general area".

then in 120 Ron states "In such places, even the wind socks aren't that accurate, but if there is one, you'll see it once you're in the pattern and can change your plan if necessary. But my point here is that you don't need ASOS/AWOS to tell you which runway traffic pattern to enter, and you can do that safely even without seeing the sock until you're in the pattern. "

Isn't this EXACTLY what I've been saying all along? I NEVER said ANYTHING about AWOS/ASOS...quite the opposite.

That's when I finally said in post 127 "But you have changed the premise of the debate three or four times now in an attempt to save face."

And he has done just that...as outlined above. But, he's never wrong donchaknow! Rather, he just morphs the discussion.
 
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6 Pages MikeinBama and this is just the tip of the iceburg :)
I predict we get at least another 4-5 pages
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I never use this phrase but what I have started doing for the benefit of others is when I am in the pattern I just hold my mic down and repeat "I'm in the pattern" "I'm in the pattern"

I think it makes it easy on everyone.
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One of the more popular young YouTube pilots said the following: "any traffic in the area please be considerate and advise". That one really got my goat. And I'm pretty protective of my goat.
 
asechrest said:
One of the more popular young YouTube pilots said the following: "any traffic in the area please be considerate and advise". That one really got my goat. And I'm pretty protective of my goat.
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Are you talking about MrAviation101? I watched a few of his videos. I always get a good laugh when he says that.
 
I've landed with each of three windsocks indicating a different direction. For a moment, was flustered, than said screw it. Did what's needed to keep it on the centerline and landed, no problem.
 
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