Engine Reliability

[Notatestpilot]

Has there been any decrease in Lycoming’s factory built engine’s reliability?
I was reading another blog, the author seems to be saying the airframe manufacturer has loss reliability. However, it mentioned Lycoming, but it wasn’t a clear cut finger pointing…

I know that tribal knowledge is a key ingredient to transferring skills between generations of factory workers. Did something change at the Lycoming factory?

 

[Jeff767]

I suspect if anything the engines are better. Keep in mind a high percentage of engine failures are related to properly delivering fuel, air and spark to the engine. There is also a increase in vapor lock issues with increased use of auto fuel.

 

[mondtster]

Define the term reliability. Are you asking if the current crop of engines will be more or less likely to get you to an airport or are you thinking more about if the engine will reach TBO without major service or a premature overhaul?

I’m not too worried about an engine of any age being more or less able to run well enough to get me to an airport. But, the engines and components that were manufactured in the 1980s and earlier have far fewer major ADs against them and seem to have been made of better material.

In most other industries, castings and materials have improved significantly and steadily since the 1980s. It’s a shame that some aspects of aircraft engines have seemed to go in the opposite direction.

 

[Stewartb]

The only thing that’s changed is the internet. You’ll read 15 2nd hand reports of any issue that nobody knew or cared about 30 years ago.

 

[Racerx]

I thought Lycoming outsourced cylinders to India and had issues and was bringing everything back in house

 

[Jdm]

Haven’t delt with a new Lycoming in a while. The last set of new Lyc cyl kits I installed was over 5 years ago. They’ve held up very well.
I have heard great things about recent Continental improvements. It’s about time! Apparently, according to a recent ABS maintenance academy class with the TCM rep, they have improved the fuel metering system. It’s now supposed to be more inline with that of Gami.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I have heard great things about recent Continental improvements. It’s about time! Apparently, according to a recent ABS maintenance academy class with the TCM rep, they have improved the fuel metering system. It’s now supposed to be more inline with that of Gami.

Healthy competition will do that. It exposes the weaknesses of the original design, and eventually forces the OEM to smarten up. There were enough of us buying Tempest and Unison plugs that Champion had to admit, reluctantly, that they had a resistor problem and fix it. Actually, they didn't admit much at all; they just quietly changed the design. They had made way too many claims about their plugs not having issues.

Lycoming went to roller lifters to reduce the cam wear. I think there was a bit of forcing there, by an outfit that was making PMA'd aftermarket cams with oil galleries through them, and oil holes in the heel of each cam, delivering oil to the lobe just as it was contacting the lifter.

 

[Clip4]

I suspect if anything the engines are better. Keep in mind a high percentage of engine failures are related to properly delivering fuel, air and spark to the engine. There is also a increase in vapor lock issues with increased use of auto fuel.

I suppose it depends on how you measure reliability. Are more or less engines failing in flight? The numbers really haven’t changed over time. Do properly operated and maintained engines today experience longer times before top overhaul or major overhaul? A few changes like semi synthetic oil and roller stuff has helped a little, but the values haven’t changed much.

 

[Stewartb]

Semi-syn oil improves TBO? Do you have any credible data to back that up?

 

[Clip4]

Semi-syn oil improves TBO? Do you have any credible data to back that up?

Semi synthetics generally provide better corrosion and wear protection. The semi synthetic oil is a more thermally stable oil that deteriorates slower and reduces engine wear. Unless you believe oil that deteriorates faster prolongs engine wear.

 

[NordicDave]

Semi-syn oil improves TBO? Do you have any credible data to back that up?

.. The semi synthetic oil is a more thermally stable oil that deteriorates slower and reduces engine wear.

Also especially true for full synthetic.

This is true for cars with unleaded fuel and demonstrated inappropriate for aircraft engines with leaded Av Gas.

 

[Notatestpilot]

I thought Lycoming outsourced cylinders to India and had issues and was bringing everything back in house

Usually, out sourced product will lose that tribal knowledge transfer. I have seen it in so many products where that human touch is involved.
If true, glad they are bringing it back from India or wherever.

 

[Bell206]

Usually, out sourced product will lose that tribal knowledge transfer.

Agree. However, the same knowledge can also be lost without the outsourcing. Have seen where a same/similar problem pops up with same aircraft on a 15-20 year cycle that is traced back to a change in shop personal. For example, Allison/Rolls Royce 250 series had turbine wheel failures due to a change in the final hand finishing which the new boss thought he had a better way.

 

[Stewartb]

3 years ago when I bought a factory new Lycoming they had suspended outsourcing of cylinders because they couldn't rely of delivery schedules. When they brought production back in-house the problems and delays got worse. Getting workers trained was a problem. I don't think anyone had quality complaints during that time, just longer than expected delivery times. Move forward to present time and we're all so used to crazy long lead times we don't think anything about it.

 

[Ted]

If you watch the manufacturers closely enough for long enough, you'll see that they all have ups and downs with respect to quality. Unfortunately there's not usually much you can do to predict where that is going to go, the best that you can do is make the best choice with the data that you're given.

Lycoming did have a big outsourcing push. The most famous result of this was Service Bulletin 552, aka the crankshaft AD. Crankshafts outsourced to Mexico, air bubbles in the metal were too big, crankshafts broke. I wasn't aware of cylinder issues with Lycomings, but it's been 10 years since I've owned a Lycoming-powered plane and so I was more focused on Continental cylinders (and eventually TPE-331 parts).

Sometimes reliability issues come from suppliers. Lycoming and Continental both were having lifter issues for a while (no idea if this has been resolved or not, but I would hope so) due to a common supplier between them. Lose a supplier? New one may have some teething pains. Insourcing? Yeah, teething pains again - because all the people who last made the stuff before outsourcing are retired and/or dead.

With all of the supply chain issues over the past couple of years, it wouldn't surprise me at all if some engine companies were having issues. Quality is an issue all over. At least you don't have to worry about chip shortages impacting Lycoming or Continental engines, at least not directly! If a chip shortage impacts them, it'll be because of other equipment they use in production.

 

[mondtster]

I wasn't aware of cylinder issues with Lycomings, but it's been 10 years since I've owned a Lycoming-powered plane and so I was more focused on Continental cylinders (and eventually TPE-331 parts).

As far as I know, there haven't been any issues (or at least no notable ones) with Lycoming cylinders in the field. For the last 5-10 years there have been some supplier issues from what I have been told however, which has affected the lead time on cylinders (especially narrow deck ones). On at least three different occasions when I have been waiting for OE Lycoming cylinders for an engine overhaul the stories have always started out as "you'll have a 4 week wait time" and after 4 weeks you'll be told the same thing again. After 2 or 3 delays I got the "our supplier made a bad batch of cylinders" story, which I at least partially believe, followed up with a lack of a real delivery date.

The old parts don't seem to have near the number of ADs against them that the stuff from the '90s and 2000s do but it seems like Lycoming and Continental may both be on the upswing at the moment for producing quality goods/engines. Unfortunately, you never really know what you're getting until it has been in use for a while and by that point it is probably too late to do anything about it.

 

[Dan Thomas]

The old parts don't seem to have near the number of ADs against them that the stuff from the '90s and 2000s do but it seems like Lycoming and Continental may both be on the upswing at the moment for producing quality goods/engines. Unfortunately, you never really know what you're getting until it has been in use for a while and by that point it is probably too late to do anything about it.

I think that some of the problems, at least, are the sort that would have been ignored 30 or 40 years ago. People are much quicker to sue now, and so the manufacturers are more inclined to push the FAA for ADs to force the owners to deal with an issue. Service bulletins are largely ignored. An AD puts the risk on the owner.

Lycoming cylinder heads used to be, a long time ago, famous for cracking between a sparkplug hole and the exhaust valve seat. I never saw an AD addressing that.

 

[Ted]

I figure it’s a combination. 90s and 2000s were where we saw a lot of outsourcing starting and supplier changes, and those were bad years. But I also agree that as a society we got way more litigious, the FAA got more cautious and restrictive, and I’m betting a lot of the ADs we see today wouldn’t have happened 40 years ago.

Social media can’t have helped… “Watch this livestream of my engine chucking a cylinder!!! #lycoming #continental #gonnadie #faa”

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Even if outsourcing were not an issue, simply a change in domestic factory location can be. The root cause is bean counting.

We had a small plant in the northern US that was shut down to consolidate ops into a bigger plant down south. It was a consumer cleaning product with a complex of filling/bottling lines. They offered many of the employees an opportunity to keep their jobs by relocating. All but 1, a young guy, refused.

The plant equipment was old. The majority of operators and maintenance techs had 25-40 years experience. The operators could tell when the equipment was sounding funny, and they would shut it down immediately. The maintenance techs would diagnose it and make slight adjustments or replace parts, and it would be up and running quickly.

Once the equipment arrived at the new plant, it was reassembled. It never ran the same again and nobody was able to figure out how to keep it running as smoothly and as efficiently as before, because it was essentially junk, partly because it was moved and partly because the experts were gone.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

The root cause is bean counting.

I always take this personally.

There are many other factors that move factories. Us bean counters are just the messenger that always gets shot.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

I always take this personally.

There are many other factors that move factories. Us bean counters are just the messenger that always gets shot.

That was unfair of me.

I’ll just say it was moved for improved financial performance, but some factors were not considered.

I didn’t realize math people had feelings (real feelings at least).

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

That was unfair of me.

I’ll just say it was moved for improved financial performance, but some factors were not considered.

I didn’t realize math people had feelings (real feelings at least).

Ask me how I feel about my company's latest announcement. I have lots of feelings. We should commiserate at South Street Smokehouse about it.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Even if outsourcing were not an issue, simply a change in domestic factory location can be. The root cause is bean counting.

We had a small plant in the northern US that was shut down to consolidate ops into a bigger plant down south. It was a consumer cleaning product with a complex of filling/bottling lines. They offered many of the employees an opportunity to keep their jobs by relocating. All but 1, a young guy, refused.

The plant equipment was old. The majority of operators and maintenance techs had 25-40 years experience. The operators could tell when the equipment was sounding funny, and they would shut it down immediately. The maintenance techs would diagnose it and make slight adjustments or replace parts, and it would be up and running quickly.

Once the equipment arrived at the new plant, it was reassembled. It never ran the same again and nobody was able to figure out how to keep it running as smoothly and as efficiently as before, because it was essentially junk, partly because it was moved and partly because the experts were gone.

Been there, seen that. I was hired in 1980 to start a shop to rebuild heavy truck and equipment brake stuff. Valves, compressors, hydraulic boosters and the like. I was there 12 years, and when I left it had 18 employees. Another company bought it and moved it to a different jurisdiction to "reduce costs," and took only two of the employees. Left behind all the "tribal knowledge," as we used to call it. That was the end of it. Some cost reduction that was. 100%.

CFOs and CEOs with MBAs think they know everything about business, but they have no experience in the real world down on the shop floor. They think the techs are just knuckledraggers that were never smart enough to go to college. They think the value is in the machinery and inventory. They end up learning about the value and wisdom of experienced employees the hard way: by killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

 

[Racerx]

Been there, seen that. I was hired in 1980 to start a shop to rebuild heavy truck and equipment brake stuff. Valves, compressors, hydraulic boosters and the like. I was there 12 years, and when I left it had 18 employees. Another company bought it and moved it to a different jurisdiction to "reduce costs," and took only two of the employees. Left behind all the "tribal knowledge," as we used to call it. That was the end of it. Some cost reduction that was. 100%.

CFOs and CEOs with MBAs think they know everything about business, but they have no experience in the real world down on the shop floor. They think the techs are just knuckledraggers that were never smart enough to go to college. They think the value is in the machinery and inventory. They end up learning about the value and wisdom of experienced employees the hard way: by killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

The fact it still happens as frequently as it does, I think they're still learning that lesson. The little on the job nuances are what makes things productive and profitable.

 

[Racerx]

Ask me how I feel about my company's latest announcement. I have lots of feelings. We should commiserate at South Street Smokehouse about it.

 

[Daleandee]

 

[mondtster]

CFOs and CEOs with MBAs think they know everything about business, but they have no experience in the real world down on the shop floor. They think the techs are just knuckledraggers that were never smart enough to go to college. They think the value is in the machinery and inventory. They end up learning about the value and wisdom of experienced employees the hard way: by killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

Quite honestly, I think most of them never learn. If they did, we wouldn't see the same stupid mistakes repeated over and over again in various companies.

The company I work for (an engine OEM) had a large forced retirement event a couple of years ago. The people at the top seemed to think the senior engineers and staff were too expensive and that they could get by with hiring people straight out of college with no practical experience to replace them, which would save money. The company flushed decades worth of knowledge down the drain with that move and as one would expect, the new guys are struggling. It will probably take at least 15 years to regain the knowledge that was lost... just in time to start the cycle again.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

This thread reminds me of 2008 when I was the "bean counter" running all the layoff numbers at a very prominent plant in the town in which @455 Bravo Uniform resides. I sat there at the factory one night at 8pm running scenario after scenario. Not sure what triggered it but I sat back in my chair and stared at my excel file and realized how many kitchen tables I was affecting. I'm usually a very conservative guy and from that moment on for that situation I resolved to not be so conservative (meaning not pick a bigger layoff number) because I didn't want to affect so many families due to me being conservative. It took on a whole different perspective.

I've probably topped out where I'm at on the ladder because I'm not MBA enough. I'm coming to grips with that. The team that works for me loves me and that's really all I need.

And an airplane. I need an airplane (that works )

 

[bflynn]

Too many managers develop an artificially narrow view of financial,success, which is where the negative image of bean counting comes from. If you cheapen your product to keep the price down, you invariably lose customers over it.

For example, I buy practically no ice cream in the 1.5 qt size because I believe I’m being cheated - ice cream should be sold in half gallons. If you have to raise your price a little to do it, so be it. I also don’t like buying cheap ice cream and a lower price makes me think the product is of lesser quality.

which overall, has been very good for my weight. Am very selective these days about rarely buying quality ice cream.

I also need an airplane. That works. Once again I listened to my wife and missed the market.

 

[Mxfarm]

CFOs and CEOs with MBAs think they know everything about business, but they have no experience in the real world down on the shop floor. They think the techs are just knuckledraggers that were never smart enough to go to college. They think the value is in the machinery and inventory. They end up learning about the value and wisdom of experienced employees the hard way: by killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

Owner brought a process engineer in to help us streamline. At that time I was on the plant floor working quite a bit daily. So he’s watching me weld one of the machine frames together which had .5mm tolerances. Comes over, stops me and has a new plan. Hand him the lead and say ‘show me’- ‘uhm, I can’t weld’ he replies. End of the conversation, and his role.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Owner brought a process engineer in to help us streamline. At that time I was on the plant floor working quite a bit daily. So he’s watching me weld one of the machine frames together which had .5mm tolerances. Comes over, stops me and has a new plan. Hand him the lead and say ‘show me’- ‘uhm, I can’t weld’ he replies. End of the conversation, and his role.

Yup. The company will spend money on guys like that, but they won't ask for (or listen to) suggestions from the workers on the floor, the people actually doing the work and who often already have good ideas for improvements. The CEO ignores them because they don't have engineering degrees.