Engine/Prop O/H

Ultrabuzzard

Ultrabuzzard

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Ultrabuzzard
Can anyone here tell me what the typical cost would be for overhauling a Lycoming 180HP and a fixed pitch prop at TBO?
 
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Are you sure you want the engine zero-timed? I think only the manufacturer can do that, which limits your overhaul options.

Maybe you want a "new limits" overhaul?

I'm not positive, but I don't think you can zero time a prop.


Trapper John
 
Thanks. Re-worded the question.



Trapper John said:
Are you sure you want the engine zero-timed? I think only the manufacturer can do that, which limits your overhaul options.

Maybe you want a "new limits" overhaul?

I'm not positive, but I don't think you can zero time a prop.


Trapper John
Click to expand...
 
Many variables and related cost assumptions can cause signifcant price swings, to the point that it's difficult to nail down. Is the case good? Is the crank good? cam good? can cylinders be reworked to desired tolerances? first run overhaul? Check the ads to determine current exchange price, use that plus an inflator as a ROT.
 
Ultrabuzzard said:
Can anyone here tell me what the typical cost would be for overhauling a Lycoming 180HP and a fixed pitch prop at TBO?
Click to expand...

This was in 2002:

My 150hp O-320 was $14,400 from Penn Yan, with new Lycoming
cylinders, and including about $1000 for the conversion to 160hp.

New England Prop "overhauled" and re-pitched my prop for
about $350.

A couple of years prior, a friend did his 180hp Lycoming for
about $12,000 from Mattituk. He didn't do anything with the prop
 
I'm assuming you're asking on behalf of your new club and are wanting to know what to collect for an engine reserve. If that's the case, I would suggest you price out a factory remanufactured engine and estimated labor (about as high as you can estimate). I'd suggest this for two reasons.

1) club members shouldn't have to wait around for a local mechanic to rebuild the engine on his schedule. I've seen rebuilds go bad and take months. You want to get it done as quickly as possible so that the airplane can get back on the line

2) if you can get it done as quickly for less, you have a buffer fund for other maintenance which is always a good thing to have
 
Kind of..... I'm trying to determine a fair and equitable amount for o/h reserves for member owned club-leased planes for use in negotiation of their dry rate.




FlyNE said:
I'm assuming you're asking on behalf of your new club and are wanting to know what to collect for an engine reserve. If that's the case, I would suggest you price out a factory remanufactured engine and estimated labor (about as high as you can estimate). I'd suggest this for two reasons.

1) club members shouldn't have to wait around for a local mechanic to rebuild the engine on his schedule. I've seen rebuilds go bad and take months. You want to get it done as quickly as possible so that the airplane can get back on the line

2) if you can get it done as quickly for less, you have a buffer fund for other maintenance which is always a good thing to have
Click to expand...
 
Ultrabuzzard said:
Kind of..... I'm trying to determine a fair and equitable amount for o/h reserves for member owned club-leased planes for use in negotiation of their dry rate.
Click to expand...

Not trying to be smart, but why would anyone want to do a leaseback to a flying club?


Trapper John
 
The factory overhaul is going to be a good estimate for what the owner of the plane is going to want. Then figure out what the cheapest overhaul is, and that's what you want.

For a lot of planes, it seems that bit about 2x the fuel cost is about right for the total cost of ownership, so that would probably be a fair test. That doesn't work if you're doing upgrades, though. Subtracting out my upgrades, my plane has been about the same to run per hour as my fuel (includes insurance and hangar). The upgrades have been what have tipped the scales.
 
Many clubs operate that way. Pilot owner/members lease their planes to the club to help defray the costs of ownership, and keep their planes flying.

Trapper John said:
Not trying to be smart, but why would anyone want to do a leaseback to a flying club?


Trapper John
Click to expand...
 
Ultrabuzzard said:
Many clubs operate that way. Pilot owner/members lease their planes to the club to help defray the costs of ownership, and keep their planes flying.
Click to expand...

Since the insurance rates have changed, the leaseback option is much less desirable. I found on my own aircraft that I would either make scratch or wind up even while my airplane slowly degraded from all the impersonal pilots and their non-owner CFIs slamming my aircraft into the runway to simulate emergencies.
 
How many club planes make it to TBO? I was in a large club right after college that owned a 152 and a 172.... neither made it to TBO. One of the problems may have been that the club lease rates were wet and based on hobbs time.
 
swingwing said:
How many club planes make it to TBO? I was in a large club right after college that owned a 152 and a 172.... neither made it to TBO. One of the problems may have been that the club lease rates were wet and based on hobbs time.
Click to expand...


What happened to them?
 
Probably abused by ham-fisted pilots. No way would I allow an aircraft of mine to be so treated.
 
The engines get most of the ink in these discussions, but it's a battle of attrition in many more areas. During an appraisal inspection these areas of wear ($) are easily visible. Many are little (but not necessarily inexpensive) things that wear out, break or just look bad as a result of increased use. They include but are not limited to:
  • the bead on the door side(s) of the seat cushion and seatback
  • door and window locks, hinges and hardware
  • wheel pants and fairings--cracks, mounts, paint, condition
  • struts and plastic fairings
  • instrument panel and controls
  • carpets and seat coverings (worn to a frazzle)
  • headrests and mountings
  • headliner (pen and pencil marks)
  • seatbelts and harnesses
  • sunvisors
  • interior plastic and metal surfaces
  • map and other storage compartments
  • armrests and cabin appointments
  • fresh air and heat vents and controls
  • leading edge and cowling (oil door) paint erosion
  • control lock and yoke surfaces
  • wheels and brakes
  • shimmy dampers and landing gear hardware
  • alternators and accessories
  • prop surface and paint--dings and erosion
  • nav and landing/taxi light lenses, covers, bulbs
  • Engine & prop controls
  • avionics surfaces (paint worn off) and switches (frequent use)
  • sheet metal cracks and dings
  • fuel tank filler areas--dings, dents, scratches gouges and paint
Much of the wear on some of these items is the result of the frequent inspections they must endure. Anyone who thinks that airframe hours aren't important insofar as condition is concerned hasn't looked closely at enough high-time airplanes.
 
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FlyNE said:
I'm assuming you're asking on behalf of your new club and are wanting to know what to collect for an engine reserve. If that's the case, I would suggest you price out a factory remanufactured engine and estimated labor (about as high as you can estimate). I'd suggest this for two reasons.

1) club members shouldn't have to wait around for a local mechanic to rebuild the engine on his schedule. I've seen rebuilds go bad and take months. You want to get it done as quickly as possible so that the airplane can get back on the line

2) if you can get it done as quickly for less, you have a buffer fund for other maintenance which is always a good thing to have
Click to expand...

We went to a specialty shop, all he does is engines, not even on airport.
Did the R&R ourselves with supervision. The O-540 was in the shop for 2 weeks and included the STC to 250HP from 235. Overhaul included Mag and Carb rebuild, $20K

Plus Prop and new hoses.
 
wabower said:
The engines get most of the ink in these discussions, but it's a battle of attrition in many more areas. During an appraisal inspection these areas of wear ($) are easily visible. Many are little (but not necessarily inexpensive) things that wear out, break or just look bad as a result of increased use. They include but are not limited to:
  • the bead on the door side(s) of the seat cushion and seatback
  • door and window locks, hinges and hardware
  • wheel pants and fairings--cracks, mounts, paint, condition
  • struts and plastic fairings
  • instrument panel and controls
  • carpets and seat coverings (worn to a frazzle)
  • headrests and mountings
  • headliner (pen and pencil marks)
  • seatbelts and harnesses
  • sunvisors
  • interior plastic and metal surfaces
  • map and other storage compartments
  • armrests and cabin appointments
  • fresh air and heat vents and controls
  • leading edge and cowling (oil door) paint erosion
  • control lock and yoke surfaces
  • wheels and brakes
  • shimmy dampers and landing gear hardware
  • alternators and accessories
  • prop surface and paint--dings and erosion
  • nav and landing/taxi light lenses, covers, bulbs
  • Engine & prop controls
  • avionics surfaces (paint worn off) and switches (frequent use)
  • sheet metal cracks and dings
  • fuel tank filler areas--dings, dents, scratches gouges and paint
Much of the wear on some of these items is the result of the frequent inspections they must endure. Anyone who thinks that airframe hours aren't important insofar as condition is concerned hasn't looked closely at enough high-time airplanes.
Click to expand...

That's a good list; would like to see it as a "sticky" post for pre-purchase inspection review.
 
Tax, tags, and freight, including all accessories, not to mention a good engine compartment clean-up? Budget $20K. You may well come in under that, but you probably won't go over, and that's a good plan for a club -- you can always put any surplus aside for the next one.
 
swingwing said:
How many club planes make it to TBO? I was in a large club right after college that owned a 152 and a 172.... neither made it to TBO. One of the problems may have been that the club lease rates were wet and based on hobbs time.
Click to expand...

Our 182 made it 951 hours OVER TBO. :yes: FWIW, we charge a wet rate based on tach time, which works really well and IMHO contributes to safety as well (nobody's in a hurry to take off).

As for the cost, I'd suggest budgeting 50% over what AOPA Vref says. Our overhaul was right at what Vref said, but the R&R and such added a lot.

Also, props to Poplar Grove Airmotive. Their sticker was on the last (TBO+951) engine, you can be darn sure that's where we sent it back to! And after they overhauled it... Wow, it just hums. And their test-cell run to start the break-in seems to have done a great job seating the rings, we've only burned 1/2 quart of oil in the first 20 hours. We'll be back!

As for our other engines, one had a cam lobe problem ~1200 hours, we got that fixed - And it promptly suffered a prop strike. Then, just recently, we had to replace all the cylinders on it - All four (Superior Millenium) cylinders cracked in a similar fashion, mechanics said it was not due to anything pilots did but that those cylinders were *very* similar to some that had an AD (which didn't apply in our case, but maybe should have!). Needless to say, next overhaul we'll be getting factory Lycoming cylinders. In the meantime, we purchased four PGA-overhauled factory jugs and after all this work expect what's left to go past TBO.

Finally, our other Archer is running strong and should continue to, we've never had any major problems with it, and it's for sale to a good home. :yes:

There's no reason a club plane shouldn't make TBO or better, but charging wet hobbs rates certainly can't help since it'll encourage pilots to fly at "full rental power". Charge dry or better yet, by tach! :yes:
 
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