Engine overhaul shop feedback

jdfrey1

jdfrey1

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Grand Rapids, MI
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Jeff Frey
I've started to see some fine ferrous metal in my filter the last few oil changes and I'm very close to TBO on my O360-A4M engine in my Archer so I'm starting to plan for an overhaul. After research, forum feedback and discussions with my mechanic it sounds like this is most likely cam and/or lifter spalling. My cylinders are only 600 hours old and all have great compressions but they are ECi that I will replace with new Lycoming cylinders. My plan is to bite the bullet and get this done at annual which isn't until October.

I'm looking at a few shops and have called around a bit and I've laid out some of the options below. I've heard that a good local shop is the best but was wondering if there is any specific feedback on any of these options.

G&N Aircraft: These guys would be considered local to me as I'm in Illinois and they are just over the state line in Indiana. I was quoted $19495 which includes new Lycoming cylinders, cam & lifters, mags, ignition harness, plugs and a Lamar starter. They offer free pickup & delivery and will do either an exchange or overhaul my engine for the same price. Warantee is 1 year 100% parts & labor then prorated 40 hours/mo to TBO.

Penn Yan: Quoted price was $19593 and includes all shipping costs. Includes new Lycoming cylinders, cam & lifters, Slick Mags, ignition harness, plugs and SkyTec lightweight starter. Overhaul and exchange are the same price. Warantee is 2 years or 500 hours parts & labor then prorated 40 hours/mo to TBO.

Mattituck: Quoted price was $18654 and shipping would be around $600 for the round trip. Includes new Lycoming cylinders, cam & lifters, mags, ignition harness, plugs and SkyTec lightweight starter. Overhaul and exchange are the same price. Warantee is 3 years or 300 hours. (Total - $19254)

Zephyr: This shop was highly recommended all over the forums so I thought I'd check them out. They quoted $17900 for the base rebuild and $1600 for new Lycoming cylinders and $700 for a new cam. They pay frieght one way and estimated it around $250. Warantee is 2 years or 500 hours. One negative is that they don't do an exchange so this would take the plane down for a longer amount of time. (Total - $20450)

So all the prices are in the same ballpark, there are varying warantees and included parts. What other questions should I be asking? Does anyone have any feedback on these shops or any other shops I should be considering.
 
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I'd recommend that you call up Lycoming and see what their price is for a factory rebuild or factory overhaul. If I were going to change an engine on my Aztec, I'd go factory.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'd recommend that you call up Lycoming and see what their price is for a factory rebuild or factory overhaul. If I were going to change an engine on my Aztec, I'd go factory.
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-1

I've never seen a factory overhaul that was any better than a overhaul shop. I'd rather see the shop in person than ship it off and rely on opinions and myths.
 
tyndall said:
-1

I've never seen a factory overhaul that was any better than a overhaul shop. I'd rather see the shop in person than ship it off and rely on opinions and myths.
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Till the overhaul shop goes tits up... Then your wonderful warranty is worthless..:yesnod::yesnod::sad::mad:
 
Warranty means they expect to screw up. Heh heh. Kidding, kinda.

Warranties are great when you need them but you really don't want the hassle.

(Says the man with over $13,500 in Warranty repairs on a VW Jetta Wagon before it decided to be a reliable car that wasn't a hangar queen.)
 
tyndall said:
-1

I've never seen a factory overhaul that was any better than a overhaul shop. I'd rather see the shop in person than ship it off and rely on opinions and myths.
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Lycoming has usually been pretty good about giving factory tours, especially if you call them up and say you're interested in having your engine overhauled. Plus you'll get roller tappets on your engine (even if you give them a flat tappet case). There are a number of other design features that have been outdated but are still legal. The standard overhaul shops will typically give you back those outdated features (and sometimes may give you outdated features even if you give them an engine with the newer stuff). You won't get that from the factory.

I hold no bias here - that's what I'd do for my own airplane, and I'd be paying full cost. I'd be getting back a way better engine than I'd be giving them.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'd recommend that you call up Lycoming and see what their price is for a factory rebuild or factory overhaul. If I were going to change an engine on my Aztec, I'd go factory.
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Good point. I'll get in touch with them and add them to the evaluation.
 
We had an 0-320 done at Penn-Yann. Don't know that I'd go back after some problems that cropped up after about 300 hours revealed some underlying QC troubles.
If you want other lesser known but quality OH shops to consider, I hear very good things about Custom Airmotive in OK. I also a Comanche guy who had the 0-540 in his bird done at Bolduc. In your backyard, and I understand they have a pretty good warrantee.
 
I personally appreciate how Charlie Zephyr has always been lurking around the forums over the years and contributes when he can. That is something I've never seen the factory reps doing.
 
jdfrey1 said:
II'm starting to plan for an overhaul.
I'm looking at a few shops and have called around a bit and I've laid out some of the options below. I've heard that a good local shop is the best but was wondering if there is any specific feedback on any of these options.

Does anyone have any feedback on these shops or any other shops I should be considering.
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Why not give the job to the local A&P mechanic? It isn't like it's brain surgery.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
We had an 0-320 done at Penn-Yann. Don't know that I'd go back after some problems that cropped up after about 300 hours revealed some underlying QC troubles.
If you want other lesser known but quality OH shops to consider, I hear very good things about Custom Airmotive in OK. I also a Comanche guy who had the 0-540 in his bird done at Bolduc. In your backyard, and I understand they have a pretty good warrantee.
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Chip:

What were the issues that cropped up for you?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Lycoming has usually been pretty good about giving factory tours, especially if you call them up and say you're interested in having your engine overhauled. Plus you'll get roller tappets on your engine (even if you give them a flat tappet case). There are a number of other design features that have been outdated but are still legal. The standard overhaul shops will typically give you back those outdated features (and sometimes may give you outdated features even if you give them an engine with the newer stuff). You won't get that from the factory.

I hold no bias here - that's what I'd do for my own airplane, and I'd be paying full cost. I'd be getting back a way better engine than I'd be giving them.
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Listen to Ted.... you want Roller stuff... I bet any other shops won't provide that, or if they do it will cost a pretty penny...
 
LearDriver said:
Can a local A&P produce an engine that is comparable to a RAM or Victor engine?
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and better. None of those guys have a patent on quality workmanship and will sell any custom parts they have. Apparently there is now a retrofit for cases to take roller tappets and cam, not familiar but saw it in another thread. I too was of the impression rollers were available only from Lyc, but that appears to now be untrue. Plus you can always buy a new case cam and tappets from Lycoming if you want.

What you are buying from these shops that you don't typically get from the local A&P is a written warranty and there is definitely a cash value that can be attributed to that so I'm not saying it's unfair. These shops thrive doing quality work because there is sadly a lack of qualified or willing number of local A&Ps out there. For people who live in an area that is lacking good honest mechanics, then yeah these shops provide excellent service and value. If you are on a field with a good reputable shop or mechanic, they may very well warranty their work regardless of a written warranty since you're his regular customer. There are specialty shops where you send out all the hard parts for inspection, machine work, and treatments, there is nothing that the boutique shops or even the factory have available to them that is not available for your A&P to purchase direct. The only necessary difference is who is assembling the parts, you can buy all the components and STCs for a RAM engine from RAM if you want, however to convert may be cheaper to go through them. For subsequent rebuilds though that may not be true.

The other major component of course that you noticed that some shops give you is time, although a good engine shop with all in house machines and processes can turn you around inside 4 days if it came down to it.
 
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LearDriver said:
Can a local A&P produce an engine that is comparable to a RAM or Victor engine?
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Yes.. its simply a matter of disassembly, inspecting, ordering parts, sending the repairables to the proper shops and reassembly, by the book
 
DutchessFlier said:
Chip:

What were the issues that cropped up for you?
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We made the mistake of opting for reworked cyls instead of new at OH, but when one Penn Yan installed started cracking around the valve seats at 300 hours, we looked closely at the the rest and found weld repairs that were just butt ugly. Mix of new and old type cyls as evidenced by the stud bosses. We just pulled them all and replaced with new. Also, a couple of the pushrods were shorter than spec. Stuff like that that I wouldn't care to pay for again, and wouldn't expect from a high quality shop.
YMMV.
 
N801BH said:
Listen to Ted.... you want Roller stuff... I bet any other shops won't provide that, or if they do it will cost a pretty penny...
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Totally false in both respects. You are going to pay for the parts no matter where you buy them from. replacement parts are simply that, and can e bought from several places.

Superior has a full line of parts for all Lycoming and Continental engines, and shops to service them.

No body grinds their own cranks in the shops any more, they send them out (mostly to Aircraft services in Tulsa) and the case lap and line bore goes to Chuck Ney also in Tulsa, because he has the STC to do the Ney Nozzle mod, for better oiling of cylinders and cam.

you will pay for the service of all the repairables, but the local A&P can cut out the middle man by dealing direct.
 
OBTW roller tappets are not the end all for cam problems. they are simply a different set of problems.

electrolyses will effect rollers as much as it does any two metals in contact with each other, but the roller is in contact with the cam at a higher pressure and will remove the oil flim quicker and start corrosion faster than and have a smaller foot print which causes the resulting pit to be deeper.

ask any old racer what happens to old roller cam sets.
they have less friction when running but wear in a different manner. any debris trapped between the roller and the cam will cause a frosted surface, which results in more debris being trapped. Better filtration is a must, and we simply have not improved that issue.
 
Tom-D said:
OBTW roller tappets are not the end all for cam problems. they are simply a different set of problems.

electrolyses will effect rollers as much as it does any two metals in contact with each other, but the roller is in contact with the cam at a higher pressure and will remove the oil flim quicker and start corrosion faster than and have a smaller foot print which causes the resulting pit to be deeper.

ask any old racer what happens to old roller cam sets.
they have less friction when running but wear in a different manner. any debris trapped between the roller and the cam will cause a frosted surface, which results in more debris being trapped. Better filtration is a must, and we simply have not improved that issue.
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I used to operate a boat with the worlds oldest running Atlas Imperial Diesel in it; 1927. It had an exposed camshaft and roller tappets. They were running just fine after multiple decades in service in Alaska charter business then went around the world twice with an old man; all the while it was hand oiled every two hours of its operating life in the bilge of an old wood boat.

There is no fault of design or operating environment that causes these cams to fail. It straight up poor engine specific design, operating problems (running ROP), and crap materials is why they fail.

The reason to go with a roller is completely separate. The roller allows/produces a more efficient valve slope to increase your time at full valve lift which also allows for more efficient scavenging during split overlap.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'd recommend that you call up Lycoming and see what their price is for a factory rebuild or factory overhaul. If I were going to change an engine on my Aztec, I'd go factory.
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So, I called Lycoming today and I don't have a very good first impression. First of all, I called this morning and after about 15 rings someone finally answered the phone. I was then transferred into someone's voicemail who after 4 hours never called me back. I then called back this afternoon and again the phone rang at least 8 times. I was transferred to the same person again but this time she answered. When I told her that I was looking at my rebuild options and I got a lecture on the differences between rebuild & overhaul and that they could only do a rebuild. She told me she could only give me a list price and that I'd have to talk with a distributor. I really felt like I was putting her out.

On the other hand, every one of the shops I orginally called an listed above were very helpful and more than willing to answer all of my questions.
 
jdfrey1 said:
So, I called Lycoming today and I don't have a very good first impression. First of all, I called this morning and after about 15 rings someone finally answered the phone. I was then transferred into someone's voicemail who after 4 hours never called me back. I then called back this afternoon and again the phone rang at least 8 times. I was transferred to the same person again but this time she answered. When I told her that I was looking at my rebuild options and I got a lecture on the differences between rebuild & overhaul and that they could only do a rebuild. She told me she could only give me a list price and that I'd have to talk with a distributor. I really felt like I was putting her out.

On the other hand, every one of the shops I orginally called an listed above were very helpful and more than willing to answer all of my questions.
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Now you know which business is hungry and which one needs to fire some employees. :yesnod::yesnod::yesnod::idea:
 
N801BH said:
Now you know which business is hungry and which one needs to fire some employees. :yesnod::yesnod::yesnod::idea:
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I hope every one knows the Lycoming does not sell engines to the public. They have a dealer net work.

So calling the factory gets you nothing.

warrantees and all
 
Tom-D said:
Superior has a full line of parts for all Lycoming and Continental engines, and shops to service them.
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I would not put any Superior parts on a Lycoming. My experience with their parts on my Aztec has been universally bad.

On a Continental, their cylinders aren't bad.

jdfrey1 said:
So, I called Lycoming today and I don't have a very good first impression. First of all, I called this morning and after about 15 rings someone finally answered the phone. I was then transferred into someone's voicemail who after 4 hours never called me back. I then called back this afternoon and again the phone rang at least 8 times. I was transferred to the same person again but this time she answered. When I told her that I was looking at my rebuild options and I got a lecture on the differences between rebuild & overhaul and that they could only do a rebuild. She told me she could only give me a list price and that I'd have to talk with a distributor. I really felt like I was putting her out.

On the other hand, every one of the shops I orginally called an listed above were very helpful and more than willing to answer all of my questions.
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They do have a dealer network, and those people will likely be more helpful.

In my case, I'd go with the factory engine. I have old narrow-deck, flat-tappet cases on the Aztec. I would be getting a whole host of improvements with a factory rebuild that I wouldn't get from any of the small shops. For all I know, these engines may be from 1969. I could be wrong, but my assumption is that your engine still has a lot of the old features on it.

On the 310, the engines were factory rebuilds at Continental. They have the heavy cases and all the latest gee-whiz-bang things. So, we're looking more heavily at other shops.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I would not put any Superior parts on a Lycoming. My experience with their parts on my Aztec has been universally bad.
On the 310, the engines were factory rebuilds at Continental. They have the heavy cases and all the latest gee-whiz-bang things. So, we're looking more heavily at other shops.
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I know that superior's quality has deteriorated, I used them as an example.

try these folks, any brand you like
http://www.aeroinstock.com/
still,, engine rebuilding isn't brain surgery. they wrote a book on how to.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
They do have a dealer network, and those people will likely be more helpful.
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So you get to deal with a middleman who can relay your concerns about a failed engine instead of talking directly to the people responsible. Nothing like being AOG and your dealer says he's still waiting to hear back from Lycoming about your claim.

As far as updating to newer technology, aren't half the AD's on Lycomings because of "improvements"?
 
Tom-D said:
I hope every one knows the Lycoming does not sell engines to the public. They have a dealer net work.

So calling the factory gets you nothing.

warrantees and all
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Because the factory doesn't sell engines to individuals. She gave the answer she could because by contract your regional/district is the person you negotiate with and buy the engine from. I don't know why their operator didn't reconnect him properly to the correct distributor to talk to.
 
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tyndall said:
So you get to deal with a middleman who can relay your concerns about a failed engine instead of talking directly to the people responsible. Nothing like being AOG and your dealer says he's still waiting to hear back from Lycoming about your claim.
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It sounds like you had a bad experience, which would probably be useful to the OP to share.

I don't have any experience with Lycoming's warranty department, or anyone else's for that matter. However, there is something to be said for being backed by a large company (Textron) vs. some of these independent shops that, if they aren't doing well, may not be around to honor a warranty within a few years.

To each his own, I've stated my thoughts on the matter.

As far as updating to newer technology, aren't half the AD's on Lycomings because of "improvements"?
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Not to my knowledge. There were some issues with the roller tappets, but to my knowledge they have been resolved by now. Certainly there have been some issues with some parts throughout the years (especially when new suppliers are used). That is the risk you run with any parts, whether you get them from Lycoming, Continental, Superior, ECi, etc. And history has shown that each other manufacturer has its share of ADs.

Overall, the improvements have, in fact, been improvements.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I don't have any experience with Lycoming's warranty department, or anyone else's for that matter. However, there is something to be said for being backed by a large company (Textron) vs. some of these independent shops that, if they aren't doing well, may not be around to honor a warranty within a few years.

To each his own, I've stated my thoughts on the matter.



Not to my knowledge. There were some issues with the roller tappets, but to my knowledge they have been resolved by now. Certainly there have been some issues with some parts throughout the years (especially when new suppliers are used). That is the risk you run with any parts, whether you get them from Lycoming, Continental, Superior, ECi, etc. And history has shown that each other manufacturer has its share of ADs.

Overall, the improvements have, in fact, been improvements.
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Let's see, do you know AvShilo's Comanche story? If you are on the AOPA board search Heartbreak. Still no word from Lycoming or the NTSB and certainly no warranty on the engine (I don't even think they gave him core value lol) to the best of my knowledge, and Av is a good friend.
I would personally value a good local mechanic, one willing to sign of my work, most highly of all. Second is one that gives me a discount for me doing the grunt work wrench turning. After that the order goes good local mechanic I am a regular patron of (he has the most to lose out of all of the overhaul providers of giving you bad service), next comes the boutique shops, they charge a premium for their name so their warranty service has a great stake in their market share. The factory doesn't much care. Their main concern is OEM business. That is why they have a distributor dealer network contracted and franchised out. If I want a 3412 Cat engine I don'y call Peoria, I call Pantropic in Miami. However, if I do call Peoria I expect them to transfer to the sales department that can sell me the product.
 
From an A&P I know, he said he's had more trouble out of the Factory overhauled Lycomings as opposed to shop overhauls. He's been rebuilding em for 30 years, he'd be the one to do mine. He does outsource quite a bit but he's the one who builds them up, I'd trust him over the non A&Ps working on a line at Lycoming.
 
Henning said:
Let's see, do you know AvShilo's Comanche story? If you are on the AOPA board search Heartbreak.
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Good lord, the thread that went on for years and cost thousands of lives...
BTW, met Av at a Comanche lunch at MRB last fall. What a gorgeous airplane, inside and out a perfect 10.
 
Henning said:
Let's see, do you know AvShilo's Comanche story? If you are on the AOPA board search Heartbreak. Still no word from Lycoming or the NTSB and certainly no warranty on the engine (I don't even think they gave him core value lol) to the best of my knowledge, and Av is a good friend.
I would personally value a good local mechanic, one willing to sign of my work, most highly of all. Second is one that gives me a discount for me doing the grunt work wrench turning. After that the order goes good local mechanic I am a regular patron of (he has the most to lose out of all of the overhaul providers of giving you bad service), next comes the boutique shops, they charge a premium for their name so their warranty service has a great stake in their market share. The factory doesn't much care. Their main concern is OEM business. That is why they have a distributor dealer network contracted and franchised out. If I want a 3412 Cat engine I don'y call Peoria, I call Pantropic in Miami. However, if I do call Peoria I expect them to transfer to the sales department that can sell me the product.
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When I left Miami 30 years ago the Cat dealer was Kelly Tractor, I assume they are gone ?
 
N801BH said:
When I left Miami 30 years ago the Cat dealer was Kelly Tractor, I assume they are gone ?
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Oh no, alive and well and I guess I could order from them, but Pantropic is really the marine distributor and Kelly industrial and ag it seems.
 
On the subject of F/O, I belong to a flying club here in Michigan, the club has only bought F/O never a field O/H. Since I have been in the club the last ten years we have done two F/O one is at mid life and the other is at 700 Hrs. Our engines have been making TBO for the last 20 years with no issues. The one nice thing about F/O is you are not looking at 6-8 weeks of down time while your engine is getting rebuilt. Last engine we bought from them I got a heck of a deal from the Lycoming rep at Oshkosh, 5K discount if I bought before Sept. If you are going to Oshkosh or Sun N Fun its worth the stop at their tent if you are in the market for a new engine. No charge back on the crank either, their policy was as long as it was running when pulled from the plane there was no crank chargeback. The other company a lot of guys here in Michigan use is www.klineaviation.com I know several guys that have used Paul Kline and he is very well thought of around lower Michigan.

Mike
 
Tom-D said:
Yes.. its simply a matter of disassembly, inspecting, ordering parts, sending the repairables to the proper shops and reassembly, by the book
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I totally disagree with that. There are often special tools involved, and special test equipment too (a magnaflux machine comes to mind to check the crankshaft for example.) Precision measuring tools are required to be calibrated or re-certified periodically. Of course, you are also required to have the latest revision of the applicable technical references in front of you (the "book" you mentioned) - i.e. the manufacturer's overhaul manual and service limit specifications for example. Not something that the average garden variety A&P gets in his ATP manuals subscription.

I worked for 10 years as the lead mechanic at a shop that included both engine and propeller overhaul shops. It was also a major Lycoming parts distributor. We use to call overhauls done in the field by mechanics "shadetree overhauls" and frankly I'd doubt that you'd find that many mechanics who would be willing to do one and sign it off under his own certificate - taking on all of the responsibility and liability himself. You might just get exactly what you paid for - a cheap job.
 
150Mike said:
I totally disagree with that. There are often special tools involved, and special test equipment too (a magnaflux machine comes to mind to check the crankshaft for example.) Precision measuring tools are required to be calibrated or re-certified periodically. Of course, you are also required to have the latest revision of the applicable technical references in front of you (the "book" you mentioned) - i.e. the manufacturer's overhaul manual and service limit specifications for example. Not something that the average garden variety A&P gets in his ATP manuals subscription.

I worked for 10 years as the lead mechanic at a shop that included both engine and propeller overhaul shops. It was also a major Lycoming parts distributor. We use to call overhauls done in the field by mechanics "shadetree overhauls" and frankly I'd doubt that you'd find that many mechanics who would be willing to do one and sign it off under his own certificate - taking on all of the responsibility and liability himself. You might just get exactly what you paid for - a cheap job.
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No body does cranks or cams in shop any more.

Show me in the overhaul manual where you can't send that stuff out.

I'm thinking you are trying to rationalize high prices the major overhaul shops charge.

I can beat you on quality and price every time.
 
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