Engine failure over water?

benb172

benb172

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Benb172
I am a student pilot and did a short X-Country with my instructor last night over the Cape. We flew 2,500 about a mile off the cost but then 4,500 on the way back 2 miles off the coast. What is considered a safe altitude over water in the event of an engine failure? Thanks for the Help!
 
benb172 said:
I am a student pilot and did a short X-Country with my instructor last night over the Cape. We flew 2,500 about a mile off the cost but then 4,500 on the way back 2 miles off the coast. What is considered a safe altitude over water in the event of an engine failure? Thanks for the Help!
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Take your aircraft's glide ratio, say a 172 at 9:1 (look in the POH)
Multiply that by your altitude above the water.

Example 9X2500'=21,500' divided by 5280 (feet in a mile) = 4 miles of gliding range so you would easily be able to reach the shore. Same with the other scenario.

I would say your instructor is being safe, but this is exactly the kind of thing your instructor should be teaching you.
 
benb172 said:
I am a student pilot and did a short X-Country with my instructor last night over the Cape. We flew 2,500 about a mile off the cost but then 4,500 on the way back 2 miles off the coast. What is considered a safe altitude over water in the event of an engine failure? Thanks for the Help!
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Anything above 1' AGL. :rofl:

I just stay within gliding distance of land .... or carry a life preserver.
 
benb172 said:
I am a student pilot and did a short X-Country with my instructor last night over the Cape. We flew 2,500 about a mile off the cost but then 4,500 on the way back 2 miles off the coast. What is considered a safe altitude over water in the event of an engine failure? Thanks for the Help!
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Yep, at that distance/altitude you had an easy glide to a beach landing as long as you didn't have a severe offshore wind.
 
Yeah, that water looked pretty cold last night. Don't think swimming would have been that fun.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Take your aircraft's glide ratio, say a 172 at 9:1 (look in the POH)
Multiply that by your altitude above the water.

Example 9X2500'=21,500' divided by 5280 (feet in a mile) = 4 miles of gliding range so you would easily be able to reach the shore. Same with the other scenario.

I would say your instructor is being safe, but this is exactly the kind of thing your instructor should be teaching you.
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I would recommend subtracting at least 10% from the glide numbers to account for the possibility of sub par performance of the scared person at the controls.
 
It was a standard 172R. I believe that it had life preservers but i'm not sure about a raft.
 
You would know it it had a raft

You should know if it had vests, (I very much doubt it did)
 
benb172 said:
It was a standard 172R. I believe that it had life preservers but i'm not sure about a raft.
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Over water requirements are another excellent ground topic to discuss with your instructor. Especially since you live so near some.
 
I will make sure I ask him about that. Are life vests and rafts a requirement for over water?
 
benb172 said:
I will make sure I ask him about that. Are life vests and rafts a requirement for over water?
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For a hint about over water operations most people look to 91.509 in your FAR/AIM. You will notice it only applies to aircraft with multiple turbojet engines so there is no specific reference for a 172 size aircraft.

However, the most important part of being a pilot is applying common sense. If you are flying above cold water out of gliding range (or even close) I would say a inflatable aviation life preserver should be worn by everyone on board, a raft should be within easy reach, and a PLB should be on someones person at a minimum. Of course someone can and should modify their equipment to suit the conditions and that's a big part of flying.
 
I've flown to KPVC from the Philly area and our over water route took us from FREDO intersection D-> KPVC about 18nm. I think we flew east at 7500 over the water with life vests for all aboard. Now that was in the summer with plenty of boat traffic in the bay. In the winter I might hug the shore a bit more.
 
Also, considering your latitude,you are dealing with some pretty cold water. Hypothermia will likely get you before drowning. A life jacket in itself won't buy you much unless you are very close to shore or a boat. You would really need a survival suit.
 
benb172 said:
I will make sure I ask him about that. Are life vests and rafts a requirement for over water?
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When I fly over the gulf I always keep an eye on the boat traffic below. Landing next to one would get their attention. :lol:
 
During my seaplane training ,I asked if PFD were necessary for water operations. The answer was ,no.
 
Even in the relatively warmer waters of the gulf, ditching in the winter, and the colder months still carries the risk of hypothermia. I forget the actual numbers but it can be pretty quick. I think the glide ratios are a start but I would put in a much larger pucker factor as that assumes you are headed toward the shore when you lose engine, and also assumes that the shore near you is beach front and not something else such as rocks, cliffs or some other natural or artificial obstruction. For me unless I have to I stay overland or as close to land as possible, which given my location is difficult but not impossible. Furthermore, from some of the articles I have read on ditching and ditching instruction, as well as my experience in the air force, even assuming the plane does not flip over during the ditching, getting life jackets on after ditching is not an easy task, and so having them on you as a precaution is recommended by most experts.
 
I was told imagine a line connected from the prop to the wingtip, anything within this circle or line you can land, outside this imaginary line or circle is off limits with no engine.

This is the safest spots to land within this circle or ark.

I hope I explained that right.
 
How about if you are flying along the shoreline, cold water below (32-40F), your tanks are close to full, and all the land is covered with big trees and varying terrain. Do you choose to ditch along the shore and reduce your risk of fire or do you choose terrain and reduce your risk of hypothermia/drowning?
 
skidoo said:
How about if you are flying along the shoreline, cold water below (32-40F), your tanks are close to full, and all the land is covered with big trees and varying terrain. Do you choose to ditch along the shore and reduce your risk of fire or do you choose terrain and reduce your risk of hypothermia/drowning?
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Shore. Bring it in tight or on the beech if possible.
 
skidoo said:
How about if you are flying along the shoreline, cold water below (32-40F), your tanks are close to full, and all the land is covered with big trees and varying terrain. Do you choose to ditch along the shore and reduce your risk of fire or do you choose terrain and reduce your risk of hypothermia/drowning?
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Beach or trees. Water and flying machines don't mix well, in the case of float planes water doesn't mix well with them when they are upside down.
 
skidoo said:
How about if you are flying along the shoreline, cold water below (32-40F), your tanks are close to full, and all the land is covered with big trees and varying terrain. Do you choose to ditch along the shore and reduce your risk of fire or do you choose terrain and reduce your risk of hypothermia/drowning?
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Flat sandy beach maybe first, or possibly in 2' of water.

No freaking way I am landing in water colder than 60 d F. unless it is less than waste deep and I can walk out of it immediately. Survivability in 32 d F is less than 2 hrs.

Look for a park land directly pointing between two trees to take the fuel tanks off the fuselage.
 
douglas393 said:
You would hope, but you can never tell!:goofy:
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Land along side them. not in front, they cannot turn easily. They usually have a required look out, just hope he is not drunk. I would prefer to land aside a yacht or within a triangle of several boats/yachts.

IF the water is cold then I would try and land the plane on the container ships on top of the containers.... how we get the plane down is another matter but screw it, I aint going in cold water. I'd rather set fire to the ship wait for help to come.
 
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Skip Miller said:
I'm betting you won't make it to 2 hours, unless you have a full survival suit, Tony!

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/survival-time-cold-water-d_1567.html

-Skip
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Its been almost 40 years since my Special Forces survival training....I knew it wasn't long and Tony ain't going in water if there is any other way.:)

When we (Av Shiloh, Henning, myself and 12 others) flew down to Grand Cayman Islands in march a few years ago the waters were 78 d F and I knew I probably had a few hours there but there were so many boats that I didn't figure I would need more than 35 minutes to get pulled aboard something....At any given moment there were a (from 9500') dozen or more boats, yachts, cruise ships, cargo ships or platforms and Oh yeah Cuban was right in the middle of the route.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Hypothermia will likely get you before drowning. A life jacket in itself won't buy you much unless you are very close to shore or a boat.
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This is actually a huge misconception. Hypothermia will deprive you of motor control over your limbs and you will drown long before the hypothermia itself kills you. Good article by a retired Coast Guard rescue swimmer

http://gcaptain.com/cold_water/
 
Say this is what you have... Where are you going to put it down?
 

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1600vw said:
I was told imagine a line connected from the prop to the wingtip, anything within this circle or line you can land, outside this imaginary line or circle is off limits with no engine.

This is the safest spots to land within this circle or ark.

I hope I explained that right.
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Here is another good rule of thumb that works for a 172.

For every 1000 feet AGL you have 1 mile of glide.

At best glide, it is actually slightly better than that, but if your engine has quit, the chances of you holding your plane exactly at best glide while finding a landing spot are minimal. And turning also reduces the glide distance.
 
I often fly across the Long Island Sound when heading up to CT or further north from Long Island. I always think about the engine dying and what ifs right as I am halfway across( it's about 20nm across). I think those that have suggested looking at boat traffic below are right. I do the same thing figuring that, God forbid anything did happen the boat below would be my best bet for rescue.

That moment when I'm out of glide range of both shores is not my favorite part if any flight. I'm always relieved when I make it across to land again- quite a relief.
 
Here in FL we like to fly along the coast, about a mile out where the air is calmer than right at the beach.
I have heard that if you have to land on the beach, the wet sand is firmer and therefore better for landing than on the dry sand. Makes sense to me.
 
jspilot said:
I often fly across the Long Island Sound when heading up to CT or further north from Long Island. I always think about the engine dying and what ifs right as I am halfway across( it's about 20nm across). I think those that have suggested looking at boat traffic below are right. I do the same thing figuring that, God forbid anything did happen the boat below would be my best bet for rescue.

That moment when I'm out of glide range of both shores is not my favorite part if any flight. I'm always relieved when I make it across to land again- quite a relief.
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What are you flying? Can't you just adjust your altitude to have the glide range? I would think 7-8 thousand would do it for most pistons.
 
DogDaddy said:
Here in FL we like to fly along the coast, about a mile out where the air is calmer than right at the beach.
I have heard that if you have to land on the beach, the wet sand is firmer and therefore better for landing than on the dry sand. Makes sense to me.
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and people who fly in FL already know you never want to fly over FL (Swamp) if at all possible....

You ain't walking out (of swamp). Stay in the plane/on the plain if deep and hope someone heard the signal and sends swamp boats.
 
Alexb2000 said:
What are you flying? Can't you just adjust your altitude to have the glide range? I would think 7-8 thousand would do it for most pistons.
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I'm flying a 172. You are totally correct that climbing up would do the trick. The deal is that most of the time I'm only flying around a 65nm cross country to the destination. I'd be climbing and descending for practically the entire flight- although I'll admit I've never actually flight planned for that high.
 
jspilot said:
I'm flying a 172. You are totally correct that climbing up would do the trick. The deal is that most of the time I'm only flying around a 65nm cross country to the destination. I'd be climbing and descending for practically the entire flight- although I'll admit I've never actually flight planned for that high.
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Are you equipped to go down in cold water?
 
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