Emirates & Qatar

deonb said:
You're comparing governments that are trying everything they can to encourage visitors, vs. one that's trying everything they can to prevent it. The airline industry is but one casualty in this.

I've flown my entire U.S. family to Dubai a couple of years ago to meet my other family members from all over the world, rather than just have them coming to visit us - because of the onerous US visa regulations. And we're all English speaking, educated, white. I can't imagine what you'd have to go through if you're Indian or Chinese. I'm willing to bet pretty much every H1B, Greencard holder & Naturalized citizen, at least from non-Latin American countries, has taken a flight or two out of the U.S. to visit family because they couldn't make it work the other way around.

Most Americans have no idea what it takes for someone from a non-visa waived country to visit the U.S. I look at the new travel ban with the "90 day ban" and I got to laugh - it has NEVER taken me less than 90 days to get a visitor visa for a family member. It took me over 7 months to get my OWN visa.

The paperwork for just a plain visitor visa is already more difficult than buying a house. When was the last time you had to have 6 months of bank statements, paystubs and mortgage payments notarized, plus a letter of intent from your employer for how long they plan to employ you for (which BTW. gives them veto power over your trip), and combined with a criminal background check?

Now compare this to Dubai where most people can get a visa in 24 hours with just a passport photocopy and the ability to pay for the stay.

So yeah, the difference between Emirates and Delta is totally government's doing. But not in the way you think.
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And that is why I spent I went to the American Peptide Society meeting in Canada last week- easier for the rest of the world to attend such scientific meetings. China almost mirrors our visa applications and so I had to jump through most of those hoops to get a visa there (I didn't need the financial information, but I did need a sponsor letter). Foreign chemistry students are choosing Canada over the USA for graduate degrees because they can get a visa. I suppose it is the same for other sciences as well.
 
deonb said:
You're comparing governments that are trying everything they can to encourage visitors, vs. one that's trying everything they can to prevent it. The airline industry is but one casualty in this.

I've flown my entire U.S. family to Dubai a couple of years ago to meet my other family members from all over the world, rather than just have them coming to visit us - because of the onerous US visa regulations. And we're all English speaking, educated, white. I can't imagine what you'd have to go through if you're Indian or Chinese. I'm willing to bet pretty much every H1B, Greencard holder & Naturalized citizen, at least from non-Latin American countries, has taken a flight or two out of the U.S. to visit family because they couldn't make it work the other way around.

Most Americans have no idea what it takes for someone from a non-visa waived country to visit the U.S. I look at the new travel ban with the "90 day ban" and I got to laugh - it has NEVER taken me less than 90 days to get a visitor visa for a family member. It took me over 7 months to get my OWN visa.

The paperwork for just a plain visitor visa is already more difficult than buying a house. When was the last time you had to have 6 months of bank statements, paystubs and mortgage payments notarized, plus a letter of intent from your employer for how long they plan to employ you for (which BTW. gives them veto power over your trip), and combined with a criminal background check?

Now compare this to Dubai where most people can get a visa in 24 hours with just a passport photocopy and the ability to pay for the stay.

So yeah, the difference between Emirates and Delta is totally government's doing. But not in the way you think.
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@deonb

Sure, other countries have much more relaxed regulations on visas than the USA, but given the unrest in the world today do you think it wise for us to let all comers visit here without being vetted?

Just my two cents worth.
 
Norman said:
@deonb

Sure, other countries have much more relaxed regulations on visas than the USA, but given the unrest in the world today do you think it wise for us to let all comers visit here without being vetted?

Just my two cents worth.
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And other countries with the relaxed regulations don't seem to have the problems with the unrest either.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
And other countries with the relaxed regulations don't seem to have the problems with the unrest either.
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Perhaps, but does it then follow that we should relax our regulations?
 
spiderweb said:
Perhaps, but does it then follow that we should relax our regulations?
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Perhaps so. It is onerous enough to visit this country that an awful lot of people whom we'd actually like to come for awhile just say 他妈的 and don't bother, or go elsewhere.

I know we tend to do international dealer training in other countries now because it is just easier for them to attend there then to come over here. Likewise, we are losing a lot of scientific society meetings to other countries for the same reason.
 
Norman said:
@deonb

Sure, other countries have much more relaxed regulations on visas than the USA, but given the unrest in the world today do you think it wise for us to let all comers visit here without being vetted?

Just my two cents worth.
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Comparison of the USA with Dubai are beyond apples and oranges.

Dubai is a miniscule city-state. It is a third world "nation" with a shiny, but thin first world veneer. The latter is the Dubai that most tourist visitors and resident professional expatriates get to experience. The foundation of its economy is its status as the money laundering capital of the world. Layered on that is a services sector that the Ruling Family (which owns most of it) has scaled to the limits of Dubai, and beyond (some of you may recall the 2006 controversy over major US ports in NY, Jersey, Philly, Baltimore and Miami when Dubai's DP World acquired U.K. headquartered P&O).

Emirates is an important component in Dubai's worldwide hub strategy. Whether it's fresh flowers or human bodies the model is to connect any point on the face of the earth with any other point...through Dubai.

Qatar and Etihad (which now owns controlling interest in Emirates) have been trying to copy that model, the direct consequence of which was the breakup of the ownership consortium of Bahrain based Gulf Air (which I expect will eventually disappear). The Dubai model doesn't work if movement of people through the emirate is impaired excessively by onerous visa or other regulations.

The USA, on the other hand, is a vast, populous nation. Large numbers of its citizens apparently have no need to travel outside its borders (see picture). Although there are real economic and other costs to a restrictive border policy, the USA has the luxury of not needing to be as open with its borders as the statelet of Dubai.

IMG_0280.PNG
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Perhaps so. It is onerous enough to visit this country that an awful lot of people whom we'd actually like to come for awhile just say 他妈的 and don't bother, or go elsewhere.

I know we tend to do international dealer training in other countries now because it is just easier for them to attend there then to come over here. Likewise, we are losing a lot of scientific society meetings to other countries for the same reason.
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Why should we care about letting people in with less hassle? Let them go elsewhere, fine by me. It's time to move away from the idea that we have to be the best and first at everything.
 
Interesting discussion, and how it has shifted from the OP's point. My concern about access to America has to do with our ability to maintain our supremacy. In today's world, you have to be able to innovate and stay at the forefront of technology development. If you go to a major university, you will find a number of foreign born grad students teaching American kids, and leading research. There aren't enough American kids interested in some of those topics to meet demand, so the schools benefit from attracting the best and brightest from overseas. The state department has a special visa for doctors that agree to locate in under-served, less-urban areas. Again, many of those are the top of class graduates from overseas medical schools. If we make it so difficult to come here, then some other country will benefit from those talented individuals, instead.

There were a number of foreign born scientists and engineers on the Manhattan project that made the bomb and nuclear power possible. When given a choice, they came to America. Likewise with technical staff on the Apollo project. Andy Grove, who made Intel into what it is, fled to America.

Don't mean to lecture - but I think we've benefited from immigration more that we acknowledge, sometimes.

But back to the OP, yes - I think the ME-3 do get some advantages, but those do not amount to everything. Those companies simply want to compete, and something as simple as smiling to their customers and working hard to find solutions when a customer has a travel difficulty, is normal for them. As was said earlier, on this side we just have to settle for take it or leave it. Most people really don't enjoy air travel like before, but I think a lot of people notice that most foreign air carriers just seem to try harder.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Why should we care about letting people in with less hassle? Let them go elsewhere, fine by me. It's time to move away from the idea that we have to be the best and first at everything.
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The Western economies, including the USA, have economic systems that depend heavily on growing the size of their economies. Two factors are critical to achieve that - productivity increases and population growth. Without immigration most western countries can't keep increasing their population because national birth rates are now too low.

Think it's not important? Look to the extended deflationary economy since 1990 in Japan. Try that here and we'll have social and political problems way beyond anything we've seen so far in the aftermath of the financial crisis.
 
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KSCessnaDriver said:
Why should we care about letting people in with less hassle? Let them go elsewhere, fine by me. It's time to move away from the idea that we have to be the best and first at everything.
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We don't have enough 'muricans with the skills needed to do the things we need done? Go to the few pharma companies we have still doing R&D in the USA and you'll find them staffed by foreigners. Some of the companies in CA look as if they are based in Beijing during lunch- hardly a single round-eye in the cafeteria.

Everskyward said:
Because they'll reciprocate and make it a hassle for us. I know many don't want to travel outside the country but some do.
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Some places do reciprocate now- People's Republic of China being one that I have first hand experience.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
And that is why I spent I went to the American Peptide Society meeting in Canada last week- easier for the rest of the world to attend such scientific meetings. China almost mirrors our visa applications and so I had to jump through most of those hoops to get a visa there (I didn't need the financial information, but I did need a sponsor letter). Foreign chemistry students are choosing Canada over the USA for graduate degrees because they can get a visa. I suppose it is the same for other sciences as well.
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Oh yeah, don't even get me started on work & student visas. I've posted on that before. But even just visitor visas is a big problem - and the one that impacts the airlines.

There's no significant terrorism or safety issue for requiring visitor visas for people from Latin America, Eastern Europe, China, South Africa - heck most of Africa and India for that matter. The real concern with those countries, and rightfully so, is that people from poor countries might come over and not leave again. Dubai has a similar concern, but they have a ridiculously simple solution - they put the responsibility on a visa sponsor to get the person out of the country again.

If a Hotel in Dubai sponsors a visa and you don't leave, the Hotel get to sponsor no more visas. As a result a Hotel will insist to physically drive you to the airport on the day you're supposed to leave. If an employer sponsors a visitor and they don't leave - same deal. If you personally sponsor a family member and they don't leave, they yank your visa.

That way it costs the government much less to implement - no extreme vetting required, encourages many times more visitors, and those who are admitted have a much lower risk of overstaying.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Perhaps so. It is onerous enough to visit this country that an awful lot of people whom we'd actually like to come for awhile just say 他妈的 and don't bother, or go elsewhere.

I know we tend to do international dealer training in other countries now because it is just easier for them to attend there then to come over here. Likewise, we are losing a lot of scientific society meetings to other countries for the same reason.
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First of all, good Chinese! (How did you know I speak it?)

Second, I'm with youin the areas you're proposing, but I just think we should re-evaluate -legal- immigration. Relaxing current regulations across the board seems a little bit not-thought-out and perhaps dangerous.
 
weilke said:
Ragging on the middle eastern airlines is becoming somewhat of an obsession of yours.

United sucks not because they get fewer government subsidies. They suck because of the people they employ in customer facing positions.
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Yes. I think the legacy airlines could do with a bit of competition.
 
spiderweb said:
First of all, good Chinese! (How did you know I speak it?)

Second, I'm with youin the areas you're proposing, but I just think we should re-evaluate -legal- immigration. Relaxing current regulations across the board seems a little bit not-thought-out and perhaps dangerous.
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谢谢! I still have much to learn. I'm slowly learning it partly because I do have to travel foreign a lot more, partly due to it being easier for me to go elsewhere than for them to come here.

I also agree with an evaluation of current laws. I'm not blind that the world is a dangerous place and even have a small amount of first-hand experience of that, and I realize one size of laws won't fit everyone.
 
weilke said:
Ragging on the middle eastern airlines is becoming somewhat of an obsession of yours.

United sucks not because they get fewer government subsidies. They suck because of the people they employ in customer facing positions.
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Not only that - United sucks because their service concept in First is by far the worst of any US airline - their seating policies are worst of the major 3, their website is garbage, their lounges suck, and so on.

United is absolute dogsh*t - I hope they go bankrupt tomorrow.
 
mtuomi said:
Not only that - United sucks because their service concept in First is by far the worst of any US airline - their seating policies are worst of the major 3, their website is garbage, their lounges suck, and so on.

United is absolute dogsh*t - I hope they go bankrupt tomorrow.
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Don't hold back - tell us how you really feel. I'm concerned that the main thrust of your thoughts on United may be unclear. :D
 
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