Emergency Vehicle V.S. School Bus / Kids - Who should yield?

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
My wife and I are talking about a situation with the school bus this morning and an interesting question came up. I decided to use my pal, the internet to answer and happened across a forum discussing this question:

I ran into an interesting dilemma on my way to work this morning. There was a school bus stopped, with its lights flashing, and children walking towards it. In oncoming traffic was a cop and an ambulance doing at least 45 in a 25 mph school zone. They didn't stop at the stop sign or even slow, they just zoomed right through.

Shouldn't they have yielded to the school bus, or at least slowed, since there were young children present in the process of trying to get to the school bus?
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After reading 2 pages of the forum, they didn't have an answer to the question. So I turn to the geniuses at POA who often has MUCH better answers.

If you're interested, here's the thread:
https://community.futuremark.com/fo...-Vehicle-V-S-School-Bus-Kids-Who-should-yield
 
I understand that emergency vehicle speeds are to be no more than 10 MPH higher than posted. (I know that doesn't happen in the real world though)

An emergency vehicle does not automatically get the right of way through controlled intersections, they are just asking for others to yield so they may do their job.

Were the kids already crossing the street, as in crossing in front of the emergency vehicles? Or were they walking on the same side of the street that the door to the bus is on?
 
In oncoming traffic was it possible the drivers of the emergency vehicles were able to see the kids were clear?
 
Having been a firefighter and driven the trucks in a past life, I would say that while I do not believe the police/ambulance are required to stop, they should indeed have slowed down while approaching the stopped school bus.

Kind of like a traffic light - just because you have the lights and siren going, doesn't mean you just blow through the intersection at full speed without slowing and looking.
 
I don't know if emergency vehicles are legally required to stop, but I would expect the emergency vehicles to approach any intersection etc carefully to avoid having an accident.

Kind of like a pilot ignoring federal aviation regulations as needed to deal with an emergency.
 
Zeldman said:
An emergency vehicle does not automatically get the right of way through controlled intersections, they are just asking for others to yield so they may do their job.
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Exactly. Every fire apparatus I ever see hauling butt to an emergency is slowing down and the driver guarding the brake at every stop light. And its because you are absolutely useless to anyone if you wreck on the way to the emergency.

I can't say the same for LE. They tend to be more hit or miss. Some do slow and others seem like they have blinders on.
 
FWIW, in most countries and states, emergency vehicles during emergency do NOT have the absolute right of way.
There have been many accidents where the emergency vehicle driver assumed such and collided with another vehicle/pedestrian/child/dog/younameit.

So common sense should prevail. Which, sadly, is usually not the case.
 
Ive seen busses pull over with the lights on but the doors not open if an emergency vehicle is coming. Keeps the kids on the bus and the PD/FD/EMT can keep going. To me thats the best solution. I understand the bus driver won't always see an emergency vehicle coming but I feel a majority of the time they should.
 
The cop and the ambulance drivers are idiots. They didn't need to stop, but should have slowed down to make sure a kid wasn't in the way and to make sure they could stop if a kid stepped out. You should call the chief and voice your concern.

I have a friend whose daughter was hit by a firetruck on a sidewalk in NYC. The fire truck was going to a call and swerved to avoid a car..... onto a crowded sidewalk. The girl was in a hospital for almost a year.
 
In Michigan, an emergency vehicle can pass a stopped school bus, but it must be done responsibly. That includes stopping if necessary. BTDT when I was a firefighter.
 
Cursory search on internet produces this rather sensible answer: Emergency vehicles must stop and insure that they can safely proceed(similar to a red light). Usually by confirming that school bus doors are closed and/or kids are not on the road, or bus drivers waves them through. I suspect the actual procedures differ from state to state, but that's the gist or it.

Not much of a dilemma

edit: then again, next cursory searched produced this very thread on page 2.. so :)
 
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Considering court(s) have ruled that cops can kill people while texting and driving with no repercussions, or charges being brought upon them, I can easily see them giving them immunity for them mowing down a crosswalk full of kids.

How many points does a 2nd grader garner again?
 
EdFred said:
Considering court(s) have ruled that cops can kill people while texting and driving with no repercussions, or charges being brought upon them, I can easily see them giving them immunity for them mowing down a crosswalk full of kids.

How many points does a 2nd grader garner again?
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That used to pi$$ me off to no end in Southern California: the same cops that would write tickets for people using their cell phones while driving would be frequently seen driving while talking/texting themselves.
 
Depends on the state.

Of course, I heard it on the internet so it must be true. Bon jour.
 
sounds like soccer-mom conversation to me.


do kids STILL not know they're not supposed to play in traffic?


:eek:
 
EdFred said:
Considering court(s) have ruled that cops can kill people while texting and driving with no repercussions, or charges being brought upon them, I can easily see them giving them immunity for them mowing down a crosswalk full of kids.

How many points does a 2nd grader garner again?
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I'm guessing most won't get the Death Race 2000 reference....
 
Jaybird180 said:
My wife and I are talking about a situation with the school bus this morning and an interesting question came up. I decided to use my pal, the internet to answer and happened across a forum discussing this question:



After reading 2 pages of the forum, they didn't have an answer to the question. So I turn to the geniuses at POA who often has MUCH better answers.

If you're interested, here's the thread:
https://community.futuremark.com/fo...-Vehicle-V-S-School-Bus-Kids-Who-should-yield
Click to expand...


The emergency vehicles have right of way, and children should have been taught to pay attention to, and steer clear of sirens and lights by school age. This does not however absolve the drivers of emergency vehicles from driving prudently in the given circumstances. First rule to rescue, do not turn yourself into a victim; rule two, don't create more victims than you already have.

If the cop is looking and sees that kids and adults on scene are paying attention and acting correctly, then coming through at speed may not have been imprudent. You have to judge it by the specific circumstance, not a general rule.
 
I would say that it depends on state law.

In Texas:
Sec. 546.001. PERMISSIBLE CONDUCT. In operating an authorized emergency vehicle the operator may:
(2) proceed past a red or stop signal or stop sign, after slowing as necessary for safe operation;
(3) exceed a maximum speed limit, except as provided by an ordinance adopted under Section 545.365, as long as the operator does not endanger life or property;

Sec. 546.005. DUTY OF CARE. This chapter does not relieve the operator of an authorized emergency vehicle from:
(1) the duty to operate the vehicle with appropriate regard for the safety of all persons; or
(2) the consequences of reckless disregard for the safety of others.

I would consider the red flashing lights (on the bus) and the stop bar that extends to be a traffic control device. No different than a stoplight.

Further:
Sec. 541.302. TRAFFIC AREAS. In this subtitle:
(2) "Crosswalk" means:
(B) the portion of a roadway at an intersection that is within the connections of the lateral lines of the sidewalks on opposite sides of the highway measured from the curbs or, in the absence of curbs, from the edges of the traversable roadway.

Sec. 552.001. TRAFFIC CONTROL SIGNALS. (a) A traffic control signal displaying green, red, and yellow lights or lighted arrows applies to a pedestrian as provided by this section unless the pedestrian is otherwise directed by a special pedestrian control signal.

Sec. 552.003. PEDESTRIAN RIGHT-OF-WAY AT CROSSWALK. (a) The operator of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way to a pedestrian crossing a roadway in a crosswalk if:
(c) The operator of a vehicle approaching from the rear of a vehicle that is stopped at a crosswalk to permit a pedestrian to cross a roadway may not pass the stopped vehicle.
 
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It's a emergency vehicle, yield.

Bus driver should have shut the door and held the kids in till EMS was clear.
 
Any sensible school bus driver should close the door and hold back the kids if they're not already crossing.. or call them back.

Any sensible emergency vehicle driver should use their eyes and approach with caution until it is clear that the bus driver sees them and there are no kids about to get run over.

That's the correct answer, I don't know what the legal answer is but that's the right one.
 
The OP said this was in the morning, the bus was loading. The bus driver could have waved at kids to prevent them from crossing the street towards the bus, or flashed the headlights at the approaching emergency vehicles, but not much else.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Having been a firefighter and driven the trucks in a past life, I would say that while I do not believe the police/ambulance are required to stop, they should indeed have slowed down while approaching the stopped school bus.

Kind of like a traffic light - just because you have the lights and siren going, doesn't mean you just blow through the intersection at full speed without slowing and looking.
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The bolded part is exactly correct. The Delaware State Police had a cop with lights and sirens on that blew thru a blind intersection and slammed into my coworkers wife that had the green light and didn't see the cop until she got hit. The reconstruction team said emergency vehicles still must use EXTREME caution prior to passing vehicles and running lights and my coworkers wife was not at fault....I imagine that would include school buses.
 
The two fire departments I've been on, we (and the school buses) knew that if a school bus was loading/unloading and kids were in a "danger zone" then he would leave his flashing red lights on and we could not pass. The school bus driver would turn off his red lights if it was safe for us to pass.
 
I personally know of one fire truck driver who was ticketed for passing a stopped school bus, and another who was followed to the emergency scene and warned that he could be ticketed. Both in North Carolina, different counties, the second was a municipal fire truck driver and policeman.
 
Jaybird180 said:
My wife and I are talking about a situation with the school bus this morning and an interesting question came up. I decided to use my pal, the internet to answer and happened across a forum discussing this question:



After reading 2 pages of the forum, they didn't have an answer to the question. So I turn to the geniuses at POA who often has MUCH better answers.

If you're interested, here's the thread:
https://community.futuremark.com/fo...-Vehicle-V-S-School-Bus-Kids-Who-should-yield
Click to expand...

First, this is going to be dependent on the specific state law applicable. Different states have different laws.

In my state, the statue applicable to this situation plainly states that an emergency vehicle with the lights flashing is only free to go disregard a traffic signal after they have checked to make sure it is safe to do so, and that others that normally would have the right of way would have yielded. They don't have carte blanche to just run through. In fact, early in my career, I personally defended a mini-van driver with a green light vs. an ambulance with the lights on involved in an intersection accident and won.
 
Emergency vehicle gets the right of way. It should definitely have slowed for the intersection to make sure it was clear, but not required to stop. I don't know where the 10 mph over limit came from. No such thing. EV's are allowed to violate any traffic law, as long as they do not endanger the public needlessly, when an emergency situation exists.
 
JCranford said:
Emergency vehicle gets the right of way. It should definitely have slowed for the intersection to make sure it was clear, but not required to stop. I don't know where the 10 mph over limit came from. No such thing. EV's are allowed to violate any traffic law, as long as they do not endanger the public needlessly, when an emergency situation exists.
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Depends on the state.
 
If my house is on fire, I don't care how many snotty nosed little kids the fire truck runs over on the way to put out the fire. Priorities folks, priorities!
 
SkyDog58 said:
If my house is on fire, I don't care how many snotty nosed little kids the fire truck runs over on the way to put out the fire. Priorities folks, priorities!
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You know if the fire truck gets into an accident, it doesn't make it to your house...
 
Fearless Tower said:
You know if the fire truck gets into an accident, it doesn't make it to your house...
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Well obviously I would not advocate it wrecking into the school bus itself, that would be terrible. My house might then burn down. I'm just talking about the brats in the crosswalk.
 
SkyDog58 said:
If my house is on fire, I don't care how many snotty nosed little kids the fire truck runs over on the way to put out the fire. Priorities folks, priorities!
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If my house is on fire, I want the FD to take as long as it possibly takes to get there so I can take the insurance money and get a new place without white trash rental neighbors being next door.
 
EdFred said:
If my house is on fire, I want the FD to take as long as it possibly takes to get there so I can take the insurance money and get a new place without white trash rental neighbors being next door.
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Even if Fluffy is inside? :dunno:
 
SkyDog58 said:
Even if Fluffy is inside? :dunno:
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If I'm around I'll go in an get him myself. Of course, the bottom floor is block and plaster, so not quite the inferno it would be were it stick built fro the ground up. If I'm not around, they aren't going to know he's inside and are going to shower it with water anyway. He's either going to make it or he isn't.
 
Jaybird180 said:
My wife and I are talking about a situation with the school bus this morning and an interesting question came up. I decided to use my pal, the internet to answer and happened across a forum discussing this question:



After reading 2 pages of the forum, they didn't have an answer to the question. So I turn to the geniuses at POA who often has MUCH better answers.

If you're interested, here's the thread:
https://community.futuremark.com/fo...-Vehicle-V-S-School-Bus-Kids-Who-should-yield
Click to expand...

My answers are valid in Texas, because thats where I know the laws on the issue. In a previous life I operated emergency vehicles including Fire trucks and ambulances. I also underwent emergency vehicle operator training with every employer I worked for in that capacity, as it was a high liability endeavor.

In Texas, an authorized emergency vehicle may disregard ALL laws with regards to speed, direction of travel, traffic signals and parking signs. The controlling language in Texas is Transportation Code Chapter 546.

It reads:
Sec. 546.001. PERMISSIBLE CONDUCT. In operating an authorized emergency vehicle the operator may:
(1) park or stand, irrespective of another provision of this subtitle;
(2) proceed past a red or stop signal or stop sign, after slowing as necessary for safe operation;
(3) exceed a maximum speed limit, except as provided by an ordinance adopted under Section 545.365, as long as the operator does not endanger life or property; and
(4) disregard a regulation governing the direction of movement or turning in specified directions.
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There are no stipulations on how much over the speed limit one may go. There are no exceptions for school zones or school buses. There are no clarifications for conflicting traffic from other authorized emergency vehicles.

A later section reads:
Sec. 546.005. DUTY OF CARE. This chapter does not relieve the operator of an authorized emergency vehicle from:
(1) the duty to operate the vehicle with appropriate regard for the safety of all persons; or
(2) the consequences of reckless disregard for the safety of others.
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This has been the controlling language in my locale for over 25 years, even though its been recodified/reindexed, the verbiage is consistent. Just as some folks here know the FAR's and AIM chapter and verse, when it was my job to drive hot, I knew what the law was at the time.

So in short, in Texas, what the original poster described in their transplanted forum post would have been legal, unless an observing police officer chose to intervene and cite the responding emergency vehicles, or if a mishap occurred and on subsequent investigation the operation was considered reckless.

In spite of all this, over the years, I worked with other medics who would not drive over the limit in a school zone, and would actually shut their siren off (which at the time WAS against the law when running emergency traffic in Texas for non police vehicles) until clear of the school zone. Drove me nuts.
 
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