Emergency Landings in Congested Areas

[VWGhiaBob]

As I've shared in other posts, I fly out of KVNY in congested So. Cal. where during many moments of flight, there's just no good place to land with an engine out.

Which brings me to my question. Are there any insightful articles or posts about what to do if there are no good landing options? I know that the real decision has to be made at the time the unthinkable happens, but I also have to think that having some insights as data points BEFORE it happens just might help the PIC make a better decision.

For example, over a residential area with nothing but narrow streets with power lines and houses, what's the approach that's least likely to injure folks on the ground and in the air? How high do you flare, or do you just go as slow as you can and still see out the aircraft, only flaring if you can do it near the ground (unlikely in a congested area)?

Basically, is there any wisdom we can acquire now so that we're prepared for the worst?

What are the thoughts here? Is there a good article to read? I have looked on the web and here and haven't found anything.

Thanks, members!

 

[wabower]

In response to a similar question many years ago, the old-timer said "Son, they's always a place to land. Some is just better than others."

As I've shared in other posts, I fly out of KVNY in congested So. Cal. where during many moments of flight, there's just no good place to land with an engine out.

Which brings me to my question. Are there any insightful articles or posts about what to do if there are no good landing options? I know that the real decision has to be made at the time the unthinkable happens, but I also have to think that having some insights as data points BEFORE it happens just might help the PIC make a better decision.

For example, over a residential area with nothing but narrow streets with power lines and houses, what's the approach that's least likely to injure folks on the ground and in the air? How high do you flare, or do you just go as slow as you can and still see out the aircraft, only flaring if you can do it near the ground (unlikely in a congested area)?

Basically, is there any wisdom we can acquire now so that we're prepared for the worst?

What are the thoughts here? Is there a good article to read? I have looked on the web and here and haven't found anything.

Thanks, members!

 

[Brad Z]

In response to a similar question many years ago, the old-timer said "Son, they's always a place to land. Some is just better than others."

Exactly. I used to fly traffic reporters over the dense suburbs of DC at 1400 for hours at a time in a 172. Since I'd be lucky to have 2 miles to glide at that altitude, I kept a mental inventory of every possible landing area. Mall lots on the weekends, office parks on the weekends, golf courses, lakes in parks, newly built toll roads, etc. like Wayne says, some are better than others, but most are survivable as long as the plane is flying right up to the landing.

 

[Skylane81E]

Case by case, back at ISZ the main taxi way was the old runway so I was spring loaded to turn back knowing I wouldn't have to make a full 180, especially off 24, the preferred runway. Too low for that there was a gulf course. Off 6 there was a pond with a four land road beyond it, I planned to aim for the road and accept the pond if I didn't make the road.

Here at HAO the runway is long enough that in what I fly the landing is strait ahead on the remaining runway or turn around.

Away from airports it can be harder. A few years ago a 210 driver was gliding into an emergency landing at a park not to far from here when suddenly the plane nosed down and crashed in a back yard killing the pilot. The unofficial information I received is that there was a large group of kids playing baseball in the park and where the plane nosed over was about the range where it is thought they came into view. Granted it may also have been a stall...

 

[tinerj]

The only thing I can offer is that I've seen photos and videos of planes that landed in congested area. One, totally no damage, was on a shopping mall parking lot. Another went down a subdivision street. Damage to wing tips, signs, and a delivery truck. One other on ball field at a suburban park.

 

[wabower]

And sometimes it just isn't your day. A retired airline captain and reputed great stick was killed just south of KADS after engine quit in his Cub. At an intersection of two main roads with many potential options and good outcomes, but none of them happened.

 

[murphey]

My policy is: the insurance company owns the airplane - I don't care what happens to it as long as I can minimize the damage to human life, mine and anyone else around.

 

[wabower]

How can you know that until it's over?

My policy is: the insurance company owns the airplane - I don't care what happens to it as long as I can minimize the damage to human life, mine and anyone else around.

 

[comanchepilot]

Bob, the key here is to fly high enough that you have choices . . . . next time you want to bomb from CMA to SNA at 3000 because you don't have to climb as far and it takes less time, look around you and consider where you'd put down 90 seconds from now. . .. especially in those rat trap rentals you keep complaining about and keep flying.

there are tons of athletic fields - and absent the LA River or some other roadway without telephone poles and 1/2 mile of clear space, you see why a city is more dangerous than mountains to fly over. . .

 

[Haegon]

I have the same concerns. I fly out of KISM and am coming up on my first solo, and the only thing that is going through my mind is an engine-out on takeoff; my largest fear. Depend on what runway you're flying out of, there are very limited options out of KISM.

 

[Ateaist]

If you do have to make an emergency landing in a congested area, I suggest you avoid South Central, Boyle Heights, East LA, Watts, Echo Park...just in case you also want to survive the first 10 minutes following the emergency landing.

 

[MAKG1]

In response to a similar question many years ago, the old-timer said "Son, they's always a place to land. Some is just better than others."

No place to land near VNY? You're not looking close enough. There is a golf course and a bunch of open space just south of the airport around Sepulveda Dam. There are two other airports very close by. In a pinch, you can land on one of the several freeways around there -- the region has more than 50 of them, though stopped traffic and overhead obstructions are problems. There are large parks and schools like CSUN. You can even land on a hillside (or better -- a hillTOP) if there aren't too many obstructions.

In an emergency landing, you can sacrifice the airplane to save yourself and your passengers.

 

[rottydaddy]

Never had to land off-aidport, even in a glider, but I think the best approach is whatever it takes to minimize forward and vertical speed, regardless of obstacles. You may need to gglide as far as you can, but at some point it pays to be slower, for the reasons stated above. You should flare as you would any short/soft landing, with an emphasis on minimizing impact force with the ground and any obstacles. The time to suss out obstacles in the landing area is on final, not when you're rounding out.

 

[wabower]

In an emergency landing, you can sacrifice the airplane to save yourself and your passengers.

By doing what?

 

[MAKG1]

By doing what?

Say, landing between two trees 20 feet apart (better be a good aim, though).

One of the skydiver pilots at KWVI crashed his aircraft into an apple orchard, totalled the aircraft, and walked away.

 

[wabower]

I want the polygraph tape from any pilot who says he did that crap on purpose.

Say, landing between two trees 20 feet apart (better be a good aim, though).

One of the skydiver pilots at KWVI crashed his aircraft into an apple orchard, totalled the aircraft, and walked away.

 

[CT4ME]

Wayne,
I think they are referring to the tendency of pilots to want to "protect the plane". No joke... it happens so much that BRS/CAPS don't get pulled because they don't want to damage the plane.
You might sacrifice the plane by landing hard/short enough to damage the gear, but walk away. Or purposely catch a wing or tip to dissipate some energy.
The point being made was to think, from the first instant, that you don't need to protect the plane (since you have insurance)... you need to protect the people.
Of course some would say this type of thinking might cause a pilot to overlook a perfectly good spot and accept a lesser location.

ps. Having a 'chute certainly helps in these circumstances... but, then, I worry about being drug into some power lines by the wind.

 

[MAKG1]

I want the polygraph tape from any pilot who says he did that crap on purpose.

In the case of WVI, his choices were landing in the mountains or in one of the gazillion apple orchards around there. While I can't know for sure, I think he did that on purpose. There are roads around, but they tend to be narrow, curvy, and lined with telephone poles.

 

[schmookeeg]

If you do have to make an emergency landing in a congested area, I suggest you avoid South Central, Boyle Heights, East LA, Watts, Echo Park...just in case you also want to survive the first 10 minutes following the emergency landing.

Are you kidding? You'd get fist-bumps and mad props, and be king for a day. I would indeed consider the plane "insurance's problem", though, because it will definitely have a short half-life. Like those stop-motion videos of decomposition in science class, parts will just disappear.

 

[Concorde]

Fly high ...

 

[wabower]

If I'm asked for a list of reasons that a chute isn't a handy gadget to have along, they will need to come back later. I can't think of any right now.

Wayne,
I think they are referring to the tendency of pilots to want to "protect the plane". No joke... it happens so much that BRS/CAPS don't get pulled because they don't want to damage the plane.
You might sacrifice the plane by landing hard/short enough to damage the gear, but walk away. Or purposely catch a wing or tip to dissipate some energy.
The point being made was to think, from the first instant, that you don't need to protect the plane (since you have insurance)... you need to protect the people.
Of course some would say this type of thinking might cause a pilot to overlook a perfectly good spot and accept a lesser location.

ps. Having a 'chute certainly helps in these circumstances... but, then, I worry about being drug into some power lines by the wind.

 

[Skylane81E]

Wayne, another thing to consider is that you can end up landing somewhere you know isn't long enough to get stopped. Given that as my "best" option however I'd rather hit something after a hard braking ground roll than flying, regardless of how short the roll is.

 

[Stevel]

I want the polygraph tape from any pilot who says he did that crap on purpose.

Talk to some CG4 pilots that landed under enemy fire in France, Belgium, and Holland. It gave the guys in the back half a chance.

(Or a whole lot of guys tell the same lies without calling BS on each other)

 

[steingar]

You fly long enough you'll wind up in situations that will really ruin your day. Congestion, mountains, water, all have their risks. So does driving in America's traffic. So does getting up in the morning. At some point you have to either learn to mitigate the risk as best you can and live with the rest or stay home. Me, I prefer to live rather than just be alive.

 

[N5922S]

And sometimes it just isn't your day. A retired airline captain and reputed great stick was killed just south of KADS after engine quit in his Cub. At an intersection of two main roads with many potential options and good outcomes, but none of them happened.

Reminds me of an incident several years back; guy and his wife in a 2-place ultralight make a perfect dead-stick landing on a highway, only to be vaporized by an 18-wheeler. As my Econ prof always said: "Some days you eat the bear and some days the bear eats you."

 

[Tommy3]

The most important thing to remember is that no matter how ****ty the landing area you're committed to is, if you fly that plane all the way to the ground you and your passengers are going to survive.

But if--in a search for a better landing area, in trying to stretch the glide, a last-minute decision, etc.--you exceed the critical angle of attack and spin it in, you and yours are, most likely, not going to make it.

Just fly it all the way in, bust up the plane as necessary (landing gear, wings, vertical stabilizer) to lose energy, protect the fuselage as long as possible, and then return to this website to receive the accolades you deserve.

 

[schmookeeg]

You fly long enough you'll wind up in situations that will really ruin your day. Congestion, mountains, water, all have their risks. So does driving in America's traffic. So does getting up in the morning. At some point you have to either learn to mitigate the risk as best you can and live with the rest or stay home. Me, I prefer to live rather than just be alive.

Based on my own observations after stating something similar, this is a very alien and uncomfortable viewpoint for the sheeple of today.

 

[clear_prop]

Wayne, another thing to consider is that you can end up landing somewhere you know isn't long enough to get stopped. Given that as my "best" option however I'd rather hit something after a hard braking ground roll than flying, regardless of how short the roll is.

Football/baseball fields are 300ft or so, and except for maybe some light poles around the edges, won't have obstacles a road will (wires/traffic).

Rolling into the outfield fence at 20kts is more likely to have a good outcome than dodging wires and minivans.

 

[Tommy3]

Based on my own observations after stating something similar, this is a very alien and uncomfortable viewpoint for the sheeple of today.

I don't think that this is fair at all. A lot of people, in their best judgment and in accordance with their personal plans of life, like to lead safer lives. It doesn't make them "sheeple" or *******, it just means that they have chosen a different path. One reason they might think it too dangerous is because they have a family and they believe that it's selfish to take on the risks of flying. Whether or not I agree with that, I'm not going to make normative judgments about their choice. I'm certainly not going to ridicule them for it.

These things are relative. I've certainly done things far more dangerous than flying in my life, but I don't think that pilots are "sheeple" for not making the other choices that I've made. The point carries through.

 

[MAKG1]

Football/baseball fields are 300ft or so, and except for maybe some light poles around the edges, won't have obstacles a road will (wires/traffic).

Rolling into the outfield fence at 20kts is more likely to have a good outcome than dodging wires and minivans.

Huh? Goalposts, backstops, stands, lights, fences, etc. are all significant obstacles. You won't have anywhere near 300 ft.

 

[Skylane81E]

Huh? Goalposts, backstops, stands, lights, fences, etc. are all significant obstacles. You won't have anywhere near 300 ft.

That is kind of the point,

I'd rather take that few hundred feet of braking and hit the stuff at the end at much less than flying speed:wink2:

 

[MAKG1]

That is kind of the point,

I'd rather take that few hundred feet of braking and hit the stuff at the end at much less than flying speed:wink2:

Considering PTS for a short landing is 200 ft and you have obstructions around the edges, I think you're going to hit the fence at flying speed.

 

[wabower]

Wheels rolling and decelerating on any flat surface trumps most other alternatives. What else do you prefer?

Rolling on a flat surface

Considering PTS for a short landing is 200 ft and you have obstructions around the edges, I think you're going to hit the fence at flying speed.

 

[MAKG1]

Wheels rolling and decelerating on any flat surface trumps most other alternatives. What else do you prefer?

Rolling on a flat surface

Can you get wheels rolling in under 300 feet of the fence on an obstructed runway? Hint: that's short for a displaced threshold.

A single athletic field isn't a terribly good choice. Unless you're flying a Cub...

 

[wabower]

Have I done it? Almost every landing at the field where I trained.

Why did I do it? In order to get stopped on the 1,700' runway without nudging the fence at the other end.

Could I do it every time? Dunno, hope I don't get the opportunity to prove it. And if so, the odds are against it in the planes I've flown in and out of VNY.

Can you get wheels rolling in under 300 feet of the fence on an obstructed runway? Hint: that's short for a displaced thresshold.

 

[MAKG1]

You trained at a 1700 foot obstructed runway with a fence at the threshold? Where?

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Sheeple?

It's interesting to me that some people reach adulthood and still call their peers names like "sheeple". Thank goodness the vast majority of us are here as adults.

Since I started this thread, and I guess I'm a member of the "sheeple" tribe:

* Yes, I have a family who loves me very much
* I worked hard to achieve success and want to enjoy it
* I have had flying in my blood since I was 10
* I want to prepare now as best I can for emergencies and I will think twice about taking up planes with issues (yes, some that others might ignore)

Although some may think me a "sheeple", there's much wisdom in the posts above for a guy like me. I truly enjoyed and appreciate the posts. This weekend when I fly around So. Cal., I have some new and useful ideas swimming around in my head that will help me if the unthinkable happens.

To those who contributed, THANK YOU!

 

[wabower]

Tilley International, Canute OK. Kept the plane there too, until JD's cows rubbed on it one time too many.

You trained at a 1700 foot obstructed runway with a fence at the threshold? Where?

 

[txflyer]

Regarding landing in a football field, I land pretty often on a private 1500' grass strip with obstacles on both ends, and there's plenty of roll-out, but I have STOL, and it's a 180. I don't know if I could do a football field. Some say a 180 can do it with the right pilot, but his execution and the density and wind conditions would have to be beyond perfect if that's true imo.

 

[MAKG1]

Tilley International, Canute OK. Kept the plane there too, until JD's cows rubbed on it one time too many.

I see what looks like an abandoned dirt strip about that length south of town. It's not even close to obstructed. It makes an enormous difference.