Electronic Logbooks

AggieMike88 said:
Additionally to what Mark said, the pay for systems have some pre-made database queries that can be quite useful. Such as compiling the 8710 form, currencies (night, passenger, IFR, etc) and others.

Sure, the same can be done with Excel, but for those who haven't built the how to competency to do that (yet), having the pre made ones make things nice and simple.
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Myflightbook also allows you to associate photos and telemetry data with your flights. May not be useful for everyone, but handy for glider pilots who use a data logger on all their flights. Also, unlike using a spreadsheet, if you use the app, you can just tap to start and stop logging.
 
tuwood said:
I'm using an iPad Pro (and pen) with foreflight and it has a signature block for my CFI on every log entry. He can also do full endorsements with notes and restrictions. Here's a page showing the options:
https://www.foreflight.com/products/logbook/
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That's one way... But keep a paper book for this purpose just the same. IIRC, there are only a very small number of ELB's authorized by the FAA for electronic CFI signatures and endorsements, and FF is not yet one of them.
 
AggieMike88 said:
That's one way... But keep a paper book for this purpose just the same. IIRC, there are only a very small number of ELB's authorized by the FAA for electronic CFI signatures and endorsements, and FF is not yet one of them.
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Yeah, for sure. I do have the manual logbook that he's signing as well. I figured I didn't want to get to the check ride and have the DPE laugh at me so I'll be using the old school book.
I'm debating on keeping both manual and electronic books in parallel after I get my PPL. It's not that much extra work and would likely be a good fallback.
 
Parallel is what I do. As you said, not difficult at all to keep up.
 
tuwood said:
I'm using an iPad Pro (and pen) with foreflight and it has a signature block for my CFI on every log entry. He can also do full endorsements with notes and restrictions. Here's a page showing the options:
https://www.foreflight.com/products/logbook/
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A lot of what foreflight logbook has, seems to mirror a lot of what myflightbook had before foreflight had a logbook.
 
tuwood said:
I'm debating on keeping both manual and electronic books in parallel after I get my PPL.
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There are a zillion opinions and methods but I now use Foreflight since they added the export feature but still use my paper log book for any CFI endorsements or sign offs. I enter all the info to the digital logs, but prefer to keep anything documented by another person on paper then scanned for backup.
 
MikeTuggle said:
How do we find out which ones "they" approved?
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@midlifeflyer might know. A former member, Capt.Ron (Ron Levy) would definitely know, but he is no longer part of this forum (but can be found on the AOPA board)

The item in question about digital signatures and endorsements is when you encounter either a DPE or FSDO Inspector who calls the digital item into question and/or a CFI who might repudiate the digital item.

Items to read on the topic are: AC 61-65E, AC 120-78, and this stackexchange.com post.

The summary is, you need something that the DPE's, FSDO, and CFI's won't dispute. And the simplest item that does that (for the time being) is ink on real paper.
 
I have the CFI or check airmen fill out a piece of paper with what he wanted to put into my log, sign it, then I would scan it and insert the image into my google docs excel logbook cell for comments on that flight.

If I needed to present my log, I printed it up and at the bottom of each page there was a spot for me to sign and date with the verbiage from the signature block on a jepp logbook.

Multiple CFIs, employers, DPE, even made it through the initial ATP logbook examination with no issues, even got a couple compliments on it ;)
 
I do think digital signatures/endorsements will be totally accepted in the near future. We're just in that transition stage where it is a new thing, and not everyone is doing it or understands the legality of it.

Sorta like music where we transitioned from mag tape cassettes to CD's to downloaded media. Downloaded MP3's now rule the roost, but it took a few years for that to happen and be the expected norm.
 
AggieMike88 said:
@midlifeflyer might know. A former member, Capt.Ron (Ron Levy) would definitely know, but he is no longer part of this forum (but can be found on the AOPA board)

The item in question about digital signatures and endorsements is when you encounter either a DPE or FSDO Inspector who calls the digital item into question and/or a CFI who might repudiate the digital item.

Items to read on the topic are: AC 61-65E, AC 120-78, and this stackexchange.com post.
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There is no such thing as as FAA-approved electronic pilot logbook. There are electronic logbook providers that self-certify, IOW, they say they are (or at least believe they are) AC 120-78 compliant. MyFlightBook and ZuluLog are two that I know of which make the claim. I think ZuluLog simply says "Full FAA compliance" (but, of course, with a disclaimer). MyFligthBook contains a full page going through the AC's guidelines and the method it uses for compliance.

And yes, the issue is verification and authentication of entries endorsed by persons other than the pilot. That is a major focus of AC 120-78.

Personally, I stopped using my paper log for my own entries almost 3 years ago. But I still use it for dual received and other endorsements.
 
midlifeflyer said:
There is no such thing as as FAA-approved electronic pilot logbook. There are electronic logbook providers that self-certify, IOW, they say they are (or at least believe they are) AC 120-78 compliant. MyFlightBook and ZuluLog are two that I know of which make the claim. I think ZuluLog simply says "Full FAA compliance" (but, of course, with a disclaimer). MyFligthBook contains a full page going through the AC's guidelines and the method it uses for compliance.

And yes, the issue is verification and authentication of entries endorsed by persons other than the pilot. That is a major focus of AC 120-78.

Personally, I stopped using my paper log for my own entries almost 3 years ago. But I still use it for dual received and other endorsements.
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Always thought when you sign the bottom of each page you're verifying everything on that page is correct and authentic?
Which can easily be done with a printed up electronic logbook for someone needs to audit it.


Besides anyone can forge a CFIs logbook endorsement, not sure why you would as a quick and simple phone call would easily get you busted, shy of it being a super old endorsement after the CFI passed away and presuming his logbooks got tossed.
 
A question for the CFI's.... Is it a common practice to note in your own book the flight details and/or endorsement that you signed in my book? So that if something ever did become a major FSDO (or worse) investigation, you have an entry that corroborates the one in mine?
 
denverpilot said:
Okay, I know this gets beat to death here regularly, but back when this thread came out...

I've done some searching, and you'd think that there'd be such a thing - but I see no good way to simply (or even complexly! GRIN) import that data into pretty much any offering out there. myflightbook talks a little bit on their main website about importing but no docs, no screenshots, no specific mention of any other electronic logbooks, etc... I know it's a one-man show over there and free, so I don't expect much... really... it's not a complaint... but leaving a one-man show behind was what I was trying to do leaving LogTen.
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Email me at myflightbook@gmail.com and I'm happy to help. If you can get your data into a spreadsheet format, it's (mostly) just a matter of renaming columns. I'm pretty practiced at the relevant transformations, so can help if you need; it usually only takes me a few minutes to get the spreadsheet into shape.

On signatures: Indeed, the FAA doesn't "certify" electronic logbooks, but I believe that MyFlightbook is compliant. (The FAQ on MyFlightbook has all the gory details here).

Thanks!
 
midlifeflyer said:
Database front ends tend to have more options in terms of cross-referencing data than their underlying spreadsheets . Yes, you can do quite a bit in that regard with Excel - I've seen some great models - but it tends to be easier to work with in a database environment. Same reason you use a word processor rather than a simple text editor. More options to make the document better.

For some, it doesn't matter. It did to me 20 or so years ago, when I built my own, so I went the database route rather than the spreadsheet route.
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Few people, not in the software business, seem to understand this point. And, few people in the software business seem to understand how make a database application do exactly what the users need it to do. I never understood why we just didn't teach expert users to manage databases, instead of trying to teach database administrators what users want. - Very frustrating in my line of work!
 
wilkersk said:
Few people, not in the software business, seem to understand this point. And, few people in the software business seem to understand how make a database application do exactly what the users need it to do. I never understood why we just didn't teach expert users to manage databases, instead of trying to teach database administrators what users want. - Very frustrating in my line of work!
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Because most of the time the added complexity of a database could easily be replaced with a filing cabinet and a cheap secretary?
The dirty little secret of IT right there... often what used to work is simpler and smarter than what people think is better today... "Oooh, it's high tech! Shiny!"
 
jaymark6655 said:
Why not just use Excel?
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If you're an Excel guru you can probably make something suitable, but why when there's a real database accessible from anywhere custom built for the job ready and waiting for free?
 
AggieMike88 said:
A question for the CFI's.... Is it a common practice to note in your own book the flight details and/or endorsement that you signed in my book? So that if something ever did become a major FSDO (or worse) investigation, you have an entry that corroborates the one in mine?
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I always do, most the CFIs I've met will put something in their own logs too.




Anymouse said:
Haven't signed the bottom of the page for decades. Never had a DPE or FSDO guy question it.
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True.

I never did it ether on my excel log till the owner at the first turbine job I had made a comment, wasn't really a big deal, he just said in the future some folks might want to see each page signed, no skin off my back so I did it, doesn't take but a few minutes to speed sign all the pages after I print it up and I'm only doing that for a new job or rating where they want to look at my logs, which ain't often.
 
James331 said:
Always thought when you sign the bottom of each page you're verifying everything on that page is correct and authentic?
Which can easily be done with a printed up electronic logbook for someone needs to audit.
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If someone, including the FAA, asks for your logbook and you provide it, whether paper or plastic, you are verifying everything you entered is correct and authentic.
 
AggieMike88 said:
A question for the CFI's.... Is it a common practice to note in your own book the flight details and/or endorsement that you signed in my book? So that if something ever did become a major FSDO (or worse) investigation, you have an entry that corroborates the one in mine?
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Yes. Not so much for the purposes of corroboration, but to show what you did. Just good business practice.
 
denverpilot said:
Because most of the time the added complexity of a database could easily be replaced with a filing cabinet and a cheap secretary?
The dirty little secret of IT right there... often what used to work is simpler and smarter than what people think is better today... "Oooh, it's high tech! Shiny!"
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Yeah? 3 terabytes of image data, inlcuding the embedded DICOM associated textual data would take a really big file cabinet. And thats just the last couple of weeks of data.

I remember the days of "file cabinets" on wheeled tracks that took up entire (big) rooms. We could only keep on hand the last 7 days work and had to store everything else off-site at huge warehouses. We had to requisition offsite data for comparisons and it took a ridiculous amount of time. And, this doesn't even touch the time and expense of processing real "film".


As far as log books go, I keep the old paper logbook up to date. I total each page and sign it. But, the e-log is a back up with pics of all endorsements. I can sort and search on any term in a couple of key strokes and set alerts to remind me about currency requirements. So, if you're happy with just the paper copy, good for you. I'll keep on doing it my way. ;-)
 
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If you guys ever stop by the yard, I'll show you examples of our original "card file" inventory system. Essentially a good example of a simple database query done all by hand.
 
wilkersk said:
Yeah? 3 terabytes of image data, inlcuding the embedded DICOM associated textual data would take a really big file cabinet. And thats just the last couple of weeks of data.

I remember the days of "file cabinets" on wheeled tracks that took up entire (big) rooms. We could only keep on hand the last 7 days work and had to store everything else off-site at huge warehouses. We had to requisition offsite data for comparisons and it took a ridiculous amount of time. And, this doesn't even touch the time and expense of processing real "film".


As far as log books go, I keep the old paper logbook up to date. I total each page and sign it. But, the e-log is a back up with pics of all endorsements. I can sort and search on any term in a couple of key strokes and set alerts to remind me about currency requirements. So, if you're happy with just the paper copy, good for you. I'll keep on doing it my way. ;-)
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"As far as log books go..." Which is what we were talking about.

Not your family color slide collection where you torture people to sit through looking at them, when they don't want to. ;)

Or commercial grade imaging systems.
 
denverpilot said:
"As far as log books go..." Which is what we were talking about.

Not your family color slide collection where you torture people to sit through looking at them, when they don't want to. ;)

Or commercial grade imaging systems.
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Touche'! I don't quite have enough hours to justify a filing cabinet though....
 
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