Electrical Gremlin at home?

[TangoWhiskey]

"Press 1 to report a power line down" hmmm nope
"Press 2 to report a power outage in your area" hmmm nope
"Press 3 to report flickering street lights" hmmm nope
"Press 7 to repeat these options" hmmm

I pressed 0 and got transferred to service.

Sending someone out today to determine if the issue is on the outside or an issue inside.

They groom people to be politicians at Oncor I think:

Me: "When are they coming?"
Them: "I can't give you a time"

Me: "Ok, so they will call me when they are done and let me know"
Them: "No sir"

Me: "But it will be today?"
Them: "Yes sir"

Me: "How will I know when they are done?"
Them: "After they close the case, you can call us and we will let you know"

Me: "They are not going to call me and let me know if there is an issue?"
Them: "Sorry for the inconvenience in my experience it is not normal for them to call"

Me: "So I just call you then?"
Them: "Yes sir"

Me: "How do I know when to call you?"
Them: "Sorry, I can't answer that"

Me: "This is all a bit vague. You can understand why I might be confused?"
Them: "Is there anything else you needed?"

Me:"Okay, I guess I will call you around 4:50 today and you may or may not have info for me then?"
Them: "Yes sir. Have a great day"

The very least THEM could have told you is whether or not your airplane reservation was being canceled due to the plane being sold.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

120 or 240 is the worst because it won't let you go like you describe. but it's the amps that will kill you. It only takes a few milli-amps to get your heart out a whack.

If you ever suspect a device might be " energized" use the back of your hand or finger nails to test it if you don't have a voltmeter.

Ya it was not fun at all. We all laughed at the time. And I still laugh. But I laugh knowing it could easily have been the end. My mother did not find it nearly as entertaining as I did at the time.

If I'm working on an energized device or a panel, my right hand does the work and my left hand is not touching anything. It's either in my pocket or holding something that is insulated.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

hmmmm
Outdoor guy says everything is fine
Indoor guy says everything is fine

He said you are sending 124 volts and might consider using 130v bulbs versus 120v
Also recommended no more than 60w Grrrr

I always go for the highest lumens. I don't like dimly lit houses.

 

[jsstevens]

3 phase is quite simple. Rather than the electric phases being split 2 ways 180° alternate as with your 240 'regular' power, it is split 3 ways at 120° with any 2 legs being active at a time. Basically anything that is not designed for three phase power will only be connected to 2 legs and have a 120° of 360° "dead zone" for 240V or will have have 120° hot, 240° neutral for 120 power. This of course is if you don't have an inverter or converter reprocess the power into 240 split phase. 3 phase electric motors are more power efficient as well as torquier than their 2 split phase or single phase counter parts.

That's the most common version. There is (or was, I don't do this for a living any more) 3 phase delta. So called because the transformer diagram was a triangle like the greek letter Delta instead of a Y like in the system you described. It has 3 phases, 2 180 degrees out, each 120v to ground and 240v between them like a split phase system and a third phase "high-leg" which was 90 degrees out of phase and ~190v to ground. You could hook any two phases to run a 220v circuit, but only phase A or B to run a 120v circuit. And that 190v thing would really give you a jolt. But it worked for 3 phase and could be piggy backed onto a split phase system so it got used where they didn't have the 3 phase Y system you described.

Just to be excruciatingly thorough. Ish.

John

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

124 seems high. But if the electrician and lineman think it's normal, I guess it's normal for you. But something is obviously wrong. These things have a much higher tolerance than 4 volts.

 

[Henning]

Just keep your important papers in a 'ditch bag' ready to go and your homeowners premiums paid up.

 

[jsstevens]

I'd go back to surges of some sort. I would assume (makes an ass out of u and me both), that the electrician would have checked for loose connections in the main panel (and any sub panels) but just in case:

This is something you can do quickly and safely. Turn on everything you can reasonably turn on in the house. Give it a couple of minutes (no more than a couple) and run your hand along the metal cover of the electrical panel on the side away from the handles of the breakers (i.e. the breaker handles are towards the center of the panel, run your hand down the outside metal, but next to the breakers. If you feel any hot spots, turn those breakers off and get the electrician back. Also check at the top and bottom (given I don't know where the main feed is).

A loose connection will cause arcing which will cause voltage spikes and dips. It will also cause heat. Lots of heat. Like burn the house down heat. But it will not kick a normal circuit breaker because it does not draw too much current. That's what checking for heat will tell you: is something loose and arcing. That could cause the symptoms you're describing and might not get checked by anybody. (Although I would have had I handled the service call. Travel from Florida would be expensive though. And my fees are much higher now that I'm an engineer.)

As a side note: Newer houses (at least where I live ad I think according to the NEC) require Arc-fault breakers for bedroom receptacle circuits, but not others. Those breakers will kick if something arcs.

Anyway, if you find heat, TURN IT OFF. And get it fixed ASAP. Arcing is why lots of those houses with aluminum wiring burned down in the early 1970s and they outlawed aluminum for small wires.

John

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

he took the panel cover off and he checked for loose connections and tightened everything up but didn't see anything to be concerned about.

 

[jsstevens]

he took the panel cover off and he checked for loose connections and tightened everything up but didn't see anything to be concerned about.

That's good. Did he check the connections in the outside (assuming you have one) disconnect or panel as well? Did the power company folks check the connections in the meter can?

John

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Outside guy measured some thing and said "this one drops from 120 to 119 which is well within range" then he said some other numbers and also used the phrase "not less than 10% which is the max" I think maybe 240 dropped to 238

I don't know what he was doing but he has a very legitimate looking bag with flashlights and stuff in it.

He did screw something back into the meter outside when he was done

The inside guy took the metal cover off and showed me 3 very thick black wires and said they are all very secure and he started touching all sorts of things with his multimeter and consistently got 124 volts on everything

Then he tightened some screws and said everything is fine.

I wire the heck out of anything but when it comes to electricity in the house, I am over my head.

 

[wsuffa]

120 or 240 is the worst because it won't let you go like you describe. but it's the amps that will kill you. It only takes a few milli-amps to get your heart out a whack.
If you ever suspect a device might be " energized" use the back of your hand or finger nails to test it if you don't have a voltmeter.also if your wife ever gets out of the shower and says she was getting shocked by the water, believe her. I've seen it happen 3 times. Voltage got on the system neutral and was going into the houses on two of them. Came from consumer equip. that wasn't properly grounded and had shorted against breaker panel.The other one was caused by phone company's grounded to house plumbing and had a problem.

Heheheh... A friend of mine in college grounded his big *** tesla coil to the shower drain pipe. He was demonstrating it to us one day and we heard his girlfriend shouting something about "are you playing with that thing again". He shut it off, looked at us, and said "oops, she's in the shower"....

 

[timwinters]

That's the most common version. There is (or was, I don't do this for a living any more) 3 phase delta. So called because the transformer diagram was a triangle like the greek letter Delta instead of a Y like in the system you described. It has 3 phases, 2 180 degrees out, each 120v to ground and 240v between them like a split phase system and a third phase "high-leg" which was 90 degrees out of phase and ~190v to ground. You could hook any two phases to run a 220v circuit, but only phase A or B to run a 120v circuit. And that 190v thing would really give you a jolt. But it worked for 3 phase and could be piggy backed onto a split phase system so it got used where they didn't have the 3 phase Y system you described.

Just to be excruciatingly thorough. Ish.

John

240, 3ph, delta has the "wild leg" because of where the neutral is tapped. I don't understand your explanation of two phases being "180 degrees out" and one being "90 degrees out". Three phase legs, whether delta or wye are 120 degrees out of phase with each other (at least that's my understanding). The wild leg is typically 208v BTW.

Here's the diagram of a delta xmr.

Here's a diagram of a wye xmr:

For small services, delta 3 phase is typically 120/240 V and wye typically 120/208 V...higher voltage systems for larger industrial/institutional buildings are many times 277/480 with a step down xmr serving a separate 120/208 power system.

120/240 three phase is not considered to be a safe system because of the wild leg and this is relatively obsolete. I still run into it occasionally though...unfortunately.

 

[wsuffa]

hmmmm
Outdoor guy says everything is fine
Indoor guy says everything is fine

He said you are sending 124 volts and might consider using 130v bulbs versus 120v
Also recommended no more than 60w Grrrr

I always go for the highest lumens. I don't like dimly lit houses.

You can always put a recording voltmeter with peak recorder on the line....

 

[jsstevens]

240, 3ph, delta has the "wild leg" because of where the neutral is tapped. I don't understand your explanation of two phases being "180 degrees out" and one being "90 degrees out". The wild leg is typically 208v BTW.

Thanks for the diagrams. It was explained to me (many years ago) as 120/240 phases 180 degrees out (as in split phase) and the high leg being just 90 degrees out of phase with each one and making up the required voltage potential to each of the other legs by being higher voltage (again, I was told 190, so 208 is probably believable). It is possible that my father was mistaken in the phase angles, but he is (or was) a pretty darn good master electrician and worked on a lot of this stuff for a long time. I helped him for several years from late elementary school (before that would have been illegal. The children!) through my early adulthood and occasionally after that as well.

My experience with delta was limited to a few jobs and I remember that in a wye system the phases were marked black, red and blue, but in a delta system they were black, red and orange (for the high-leg).

The diagrams are what I remember for the wye & delta.

Is delta used any more? I haven't seen one in 30 years, but again I don't deal with this stuff everyday and haven't for years.

Here's the diagram of a delta xmr.

Here's a diagram of a wye xmr:

For small services, delta 3 phase is typically 120/240 V and wye typically 120/208 V...higher voltage systems for larger industrial/institutional buildings are many times 277/480 with a step down xmr serving a separate 120/208 power system.

Yep. Our current building has two 600 amp three phase 480/208V services. They are wye configured as you'd expect. 208V lighting circuits and plenty of 120V power for all the computers.

John

 

[redtail]

240, 3ph, delta has the "wild leg" because of where the neutral is tapped. I don't understand your explanation of two phases being "180 degrees out" and one being "90 degrees out". Three phase legs, whether delta or wye are 120 degrees out of phase with each other (at least that's my understanding). The wild leg is typically 208v BTW.

Here's the diagram of a delta xmr.

Here's a diagram of a wye xmr:

For small services, delta 3 phase is typically 120/240 V and wye typically 120/208 V...higher voltage systems for larger industrial/institutional buildings are many times 277/480 with a step down xmr serving a separate 120/208 power system.

120/240 three phase is not considered to be a safe system because of the wild leg and this is relatively obsolete. I still run into it occasionally though...unfortunately.

True. Each phase is 120 degrees apart in time. Both wye and delta.

 

[jsstevens]

True. Each phase is 120 degrees apart in time. Both wye and delta.

Why is the high or wild leg require so much more voltage then?

John

 

[Henning]

Why is the high or wild leg require so much more voltage then?

John

To supply all three voltages from the same line ins, you can pull 450, 240 and 120.

 

[redtail]

Thanks for the diagrams. It was explained to me (many years ago) as 120/240 phases 180 degrees out (as in split phase) and the high leg being just 90 degrees out of phase with each one

The high leg is still 120 degrees out of phase with the other two. The 90 degree phase angle is with respect to neutral. As is the 180 degrees of the split phase 120/240.

 

[redtail]

I'm not sure if anyone uses high leg delta systems anymore. On my job we use wye. 13.8kv stepped down to 480Y/277 and 208Y/120.

Our ventilation fan motors are all 480V. The old fans are 2 and 4 speed (max 200hp). We are transitioning to new 6 speed motors/fans.

Tunnel lighting is 277V

 

[timwinters]

To supply all three voltages from the same line ins, you can pull 450, 240 and 120.

WTF?

 

[timwinters]

Why is the high or wild leg require so much more voltage then?

Think of it this way:

Each side of the above equilateral triangle = 240 volts

Each half of the bottom leg = 120 volts from the neutral tap to legs A & C.

From leg B to the neutral tap isn't simply half of one leg though. Oversimplifying, it's one side of the triangle A, n, B where:

A to B = 240

A to n = 120

And B to n, the voltage of the "wild leg", is unknown (x)

Using pythagoreans theorem...

x^2 + 120^2 = 240^2

Or x = 208 Volts.

 

[redtail]

Think of it this way:

Each side of the above equilateral triangle = 240 volts

Each half of the bottom leg = 120 volts from the neutral tap to legs A & C.

From leg B to the neutral tap isn't simply half of one leg though. Oversimplifying, it's one side of the triangle A, n, B where:

A to B = 240

A to n = 120

And B to n, the voltage of the "wild leg", is unknown (x)

Using pythagoreans theorem...

x^2 + 120^2 = 240^2

Or x = 208 Volts.

^^^
Or take A to n x (sqrt3). 120x1.73=207.8

You can also visualize the phase angles with respect to Neutral. Clockwise from n, Phase A is 0-degrees, Phase B (high leg) 90-degrees, Phase C 180 degrees. A & C are only 180 degrees out of phase with each other as referenced from (n)

However, phases ABC are 120 degrees apart.

In time, Phase-B doesn't rise from 0 Volts until Phase-A is at 120 degree angle, falling back to Zero from peak. Same with Phase-C

 

[jsstevens]

^^^
Or take A to n x (sqrt3). 120x1.73=207.8

You can also visualize the phase angles with respect to Neutral. Clockwise from n, Phase A is 0-degrees, Phase B (high leg) 90-degrees, Phase C 180 degrees. A & C are only 180 degrees out of phase with each other as referenced from (n)

However, phases ABC are 120 degrees apart.

This is what was explained to me all those years ago (and I improperly expressed above).

Got it. And our lighting is 277v not 208V as I typed above. Hey, I just washed my fingers and couldn't do anything with them...

John

 

[redtail]

This is what was explained to me all those years ago (and I improperly expressed above).

Got it. And our lighting is 277v not 208V as I typed above. Hey, I just washed my fingers and couldn't do anything with them...

John

Like you, I haven't wired any of these systems in 14 years. So I'm a bit rusty too. I'm on the other side now, controls and one-line diagrams. I do miss the field work though.