Electrical Failure in Delta Airspace

Brad Z said:
If you think you're having an emergency, then you're having an emergency. Total electrical failure for unknown reasons certainly could be a emergency, so I will not question your decision to land without a clearance.

Just one question though: did convienence play a part in your decision? After all, the FBO is there, your car is there, what a pain it would be to "land out" at a nearby non-towered field, etc. the only reason I bring this up is what if it was the opposite situation: what if you were at a distant airport that wasn't your home field, and you lost full electrical? Would you still land or would you head home to your home airport (or a closer non-towered field)? Reason I bring this up is that the NTSB a docket is filled with stories of pilots who detected something was wrong but elected to continue due to convienence. Be careful, it can sneak up on you...the temptation to fly even though one of the mags isn't quite right, or it's just one bad plug, etc. bottom line, if you think its an emergency, it's an emergency. Don't fly longer than you have to; land as soon as practicABLE.
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That is a really good question. To be completely honest, I don't know the answer to your question. That may sound strange, but that line of thinking was not part of my concious thought process. Now, whether or not my subconcious was telling me that was the best place to land because of all the reasons you mentioned, I don't know, but it is certainly something to think about.

Also, I like that you brought up the NTSB reports. I make a small hobby out of reading NTSB reports for the fun of it. I am always bewildered at why people do the things they do. But it is easy to sit at my computer screen and second guess a split second decision someone made when I am not the one there flying the airplane.
 
Something is wrong with airplane. Me thinking what else could go wrong. Make sure clear of traffic and land on the runway I was assigned Too. That's what i I would have done. I'm on the ground safely and explain to the tower later.
 
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azpilot said:
That is a really good question. To be completely honest, I don't know the answer to your question. That may sound strange, but that line of thinking was not part of my concious thought process. Now, whether or not my subconcious was telling me that was the best place to land because of all the reasons you mentioned, I don't know, but it is certainly something to think about.

Also, I like that you brought up the NTSB reports. I make a small hobby out of reading NTSB reports for the fun of it. I am always bewildered at why people do the things they do. But it is easy to sit at my computer screen and second guess a split second decision someone made when I am not the one there flying the airplane.
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Agreed. Every time a commercial aircraft crashes, there are usually many lessons learned that ideally make every subsequent operation safer. Sometimes I feel like in GA we shake our heads, convince ourselves it won't happen to us, and go on our way.

I've been reading accident reports for almost as long as I've been flying. The following is an accident I've been tracking that relates to this discussion.

http://ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviat...-e30f-42ab-904a-b356b6a27762&pgno=3&pgsize=50

It's a pilot flying IFR in his 182 and reports a problem to ATC. According to the preliminary reports, he initially turns around and changes his destination to a field that's 100nm away from his present location. Sadly, he only makes it another 15nm before putting it into a field (and honestly, it should have been a survivable landing). Even sadder was that he was only 10nm away from his destination when he turned around.

Why did he turn around? He likely wanted to go back to the airport that his shop was located. Of course that's speculative, but we'll see what the board says when the final report comes out.

Bottom line...listen to the voice in your head...if something doesn't seem right, it probably isn't. Sometimes logistical reasons push us to do thing contrary to that voice, and while you might get away it...on another day you might not.
 
It sounds to me that you were close to total electrical failure. To me, that is an emergency. Some will disagree with me. And thats fine. But as PIC if i feel my flight is compromised then to me its an emergency. Emergency rules come in to play. I do what i have to do to meet the emergency. In this case - land the airplane!!

You do not have to inform anyone in an emergency. That has been debated here many times. And in your case you couldnt verbalize it anyways. So land the plane and call tower that u had an emergency and move on.
 
One of my great aviation experiences was when I worked an IAC (aerobatic) contest. I was a recording assistant for a judge, who happened to be the coach of the pilot currently competing. The Pitts spun, and pulled out on a 90 at the bottom and a rudder cable snapped. The judge I was working with grabbed a handheld, might even have been mine. The two of them made a plan, then worked the plan. It was really fascinating to just sit and listen to two pros work it out. Thanks to that, I remember rule 1(a) - "no one ever collided with the sky". If you are flying, have fuel, have power, and have altitude, you also have time. No sense in rushing, so take a deep breath and work it out. In this case, over the course of about 30 minutes, the Pitts pilot figured out he could reach down with his right hand, wrap the loose end of the cable around his hand, jamb his right elbow between the seat and the side of the cockpit and pull up. This gave him right rudder trim that he could override with his left foot on the left rudder for rudder control. He practiced a few "landings " at altitude, then tried it for real. So he had the stick in his left hand, rudder control with his left foot and right hand, and when he needed power adjustments he grabbed the stick with his knees to free up his left hand for the throttle. It was a sweet landing, by the way.
 
A lesson I learned: When I first bought my Cirrus I went NORDO - about 2 or 3 days after I got it home.. I could hear but not heard. ATC told me to IDENT if I could hear, and of course I did.. Then it dawned on me that I had a portable radio... but it was in the storage compartment.... Yaeh... So now it ALWAYS sits in the cockpit with my PLB within arms reach..
 
I have the tower number in my phone for my home field as well as numbers for NorCal and Oakland Center. I'd suggest that everyone have numbers for their local ATC.
 
EminiTrader said:
It sounds to me that you were close to total electrical failure. To me, that is an emergency. Some will disagree with me. And thats fine. But as PIC if i feel my flight is compromised then to me its an emergency. Emergency rules come in to play. I do what i have to do to meet the emergency. In this case - land the airplane!!

You do not have to inform anyone in an emergency. That has been debated here many times. And in your case you couldnt verbalize it anyways. So land the plane and call tower that u had an emergency and move on.
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I agree with this. Electrical failure constitutes an emergency in my book. I look at my IFR training...in the event of com failure ATC is expecting me to do what I filed, was last assigned or expected. You were instructed to enter the pattern to land (even though it was a T&G)...unless I see another aircraft on the runway or red light gun, I am putting that sucker down.

If the electrical system is wigging out, I would be concerned what is coming next and get that puppy on the ground. I 100% agree with MAKG...there is no time with everything happening to go though a trouble shooting check list. I learned this with an engine sputter at 600' on climb out once. At that point you have ONE job...aviate.

Would you rather end the emergency or go fly some more to guess the cause of the emergency?

I will take defending my actions in an emergency situation to get on the ground over a potential regulation violation any day. I am not gonna risk an electrical fire in flight cuz I might tick off a controller.

I think you made the right decision.
 
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azpilot said:
So, what do you do?
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Perform a go around, reach behind me and pull the hand held out of the bag **IF** there is no smoke or smell of fire; otherwise I'm landing. I had smoke in the cockpit once ... I rather take FAA heat rather than actual flame:rolleyes:
 
danhagan said:
Perform a go around, reach behind me and pull the hand held out of the bag **IF** there is no smoke or smell of fire; otherwise I'm landing. I had smoke in the cockpit once ... I rather take FAA heat rather than actual flame:rolleyes:
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Again - if you are having an emergency what heat would you get from the FAA???

Call Tower: I had an emergency, I had to land. Maybe they have you do paperwork... SO what? As PIC if you feel it's an emergency IT IS...

Or am I missing something here?
 
EminiTrader said:
Again - if you are having an emergency what heat would you get from the FAA???

Call Tower: I had an emergency, I had to land. Maybe they have you do paperwork... SO what? As PIC if you feel it's an emergency IT IS...

Or am I missing something here?
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No, you're not missing anything.

ATC is allowed to ask you for a report by 14 CFR 91.3(c).

You are allowed to violate any of the rules in part 91 to the extent required to service an emergency, by 14 CFR 91.2(b). Landing clearances are 14 CFR 91.129(i), so they qualify.

Honestly, I'd be flabbergasted if any report at all was required. It's quite reasonable to land without a clearance when the radio goes TU.
 
Shawn said:
I agree with this. Electrical failure constitutes an emergency in my book. I look at my IFR training...in the event of com failure ATC is expecting me to do what I filed, was last assigned or expected. You were instructed to enter the pattern to land (even though it was a T&G)...unless I see another aircraft on the runway or red light gun, I am putting that sucker down.

If the electrical system is wigging out, I would be concerned what is coming next and get that puppy on the ground. I 100% agree with MAKG...there is no time with everything happening to go though a trouble shooting check list. I learned this with an engine sputter at 600' on climb out once. At that point you have ONE job...aviate.

Would you rather end the emergency or go fly some more to guess the cause of the emergency?

I will take defending my actions in an emergency situation to get on the ground over a potential regulation violation any day. I am not gonna risk an electrical fire in flight cuz I might tick off a controller.

I think you made the right decision.
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I agree, per my previous message.
If you have a comm failure on low base or final, you might have an impending electrical issue for all you know. Given that your (electric) flaps are probably out, you do not want to retract them without an excellent reason (like traffic on the runway). Do what ATC expects you to do at that point, look extra hard for traffic, and if none, land, get off the runway and deal with any (very unlikely) flak afterwards.
 
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