EFB/XM weather unit

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poadeleted20

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OK, ol' stick-in-the-mud is considering a transition to the 21st century by going to some sort of portable EFB and weather display device. I've considered the Garmin 396/496, but with the data in my 530 for backup, I'm thinking about going paperless (at least for IFR charts) and the 396/496 don't do charts. I'd like to keep the cost down, so the Garmin 696 is not on my list at the moment, but if that's the only way to keep the box count down, that might be the way I go.

The two alternatives I'm considering are the Bendix AV8OR ACE and a package based on the Fujitsu 1610 (with solid state HD, bluetooth GPS antenna, and Seattle Avionics Voyager 4 software). The price on the ACE with the Voyager software bundled[/URL] is attractive. OTOH, both of those require a separate WxWorx box somewhere in the cockpit either cabled or bluetoothed to the main unit, and that's a pain if I'm jumping into someone else's airplane (which is about half my flying).

There's also the AnywhereMap ATC, but that doesn't seem to do IFR enroute charts, just approach charts. And I'm pretty much indifferent to NACO vs Jepp.

Thoughts, anyone?
 
Have you checked out the Flight Cheetah? Not sure if it does charts though.
 
bstratt said:
Have you checked out the Flight Cheetah? Not sure if it does charts though.
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No, I hadn't. Looking at http://www.aviationsafety.com/flight_cheetahfl190.html, it seems to have the IFR charts, although it's not clear if the $199 annual cost includes just the IFR charts (with an extra $99 for enroute and sectional) or everything. However, at $2200 including weather device, it seems a player.
 
I'm using a tablet PC with a separate XM weather unit. No, it's not perfect, and it would be a pain to hop in someone else's plane. But it works OK for me and the ruggedized tablet operates to >18,000 feet. The newer units with solid-state (flash) drives would be a big improvement, and would allow some flexibility. I use pdf charts, Jepp Flitestar, XM weather, and some other utilities.

Were I to be doing it again - or if I were in your position - I'd probably be considering a Garmin 396/496 w/XM weather for enroute and a Kindle with charts on it (assuming you use NOS charts, and not Jepp), or a garmin 396/496 and a tablet PC running Jeppview/Flitestar. You'd need a cable to link them to get GPS data on the tablet PC. The advantage of a PC, of course, is that you can take it out of the plane and into a hotel room. Consider an EvDO data card so you can access the internet pretty much anywhere, even an FBO that doesn't have internet service.
 
Ron,

I've been using (and living with the limitations) tablet PCs for years, and I found that the best I can do is print the charts I expect to use, and have the tablet as a backup if I have to divert. But I take the tablet because it's a computer, and I can have my flight planning software, my business and reference stuff and all that with me. For portable weather I'm considering a used 396 or possibly a 496. This works out well, the few times I've needed to pull up a plate on the tablet it was doable - the NACO app you get with the digital plates works well enough.

If I didn't need a full-featured computer with me, the only options I'd consider would be a Kindle DX (for plates) and a 396/496, or the 696. The 696 really is the only "all in one" solution - everything else is a serious compromise, either with lots of complexity, or a display that won't let you read an entire plate without button pushing.

I will say that Fujitsu makes some of the best tablet PCs around, and their support is good. Panasonic Toughbooks are terrific too but they cost a lot of money.

Edit: I see Bill and I are saying similar things. He makes a good point - my employer gives me a verizon EVDO device so I can get internet pretty much any where. In the last eight years I've almost always been able to print out the plates I need for a trip beforehand (even in a hotel) and I think I had to pull up a plate on the tablet twice, both cases for a diversion due to an airplane/engine issue.
 
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wsuffa said:
I'm using a tablet PC with a separate XM weather unit. No, it's not perfect, and it would be a pain to hop in someone else's plane. But it works OK for me and the ruggedized tablet operates to >18,000 feet. The newer units with solid-state (flash) drives would be a big improvement, and would allow some flexibility. I use pdf charts, Jepp Flitestar, XM weather, and some other utilities.
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Like I said, I'm looking at the Fujitsu p1610, but when you add it all up, it costs about the same as the Flight Cheetah 190 and AV8OR ACE.
Were I to be doing it again - or if I were in your position - I'd probably be considering a Garmin 396/496 w/XM weather for enroute and a Kindle with charts on it (assuming you use NOS charts, and not Jepp),
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NACO, Jepp, same-same for me. But I really want to minimize the number of boxes involved. If I got a 396/496, I'd probably not go EFB at all rather than add another gadget to carry (one reason I feel the pull of the 696).
or a garmin 396/496 and a tablet PC running Jeppview/Flitestar. You'd need a cable to link them to get GPS data on the tablet PC. The advantage of a PC, of course, is that you can take it out of the plane and into a hotel room.
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I can do that with the 696/ACE/FC, too.
Consider an EvDO data card so you can access the internet pretty much anywhere, even an FBO that doesn't have internet service.
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A what?
 
TMetzinger said:
But I take the tablet because it's a computer, and I can have my flight planning software, my business and reference stuff and all that with me.
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If I were to go that route, I'd need to migrate everything from my current laptop to the tablet and use the tablet as my main computer -- unless there's a way to "hot sync" the two every time I come home.
 
Ron Levy said:
If I were to go that route, I'd need to migrate everything from my current laptop to the tablet and use the tablet as my main computer -- unless there's a way to "hot sync" the two every time I come home.
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A tablet (especially the convertible ones with the folding screens) really is a full-featured laptop. I use my tablet as my main computer for work. It works well.

But if you want something more dedicated, and you're going to slip the laptop in the back of the plane, then go for the kindle and the 396/496. No sense paying for a device that's a full computer if you're not gonna use it that way.
 
Ron Levy said:
OK, ol' stick-in-the-mud is considering a transition to the 21st century by going to some sort of portable EFB and weather display device. I've considered the Garmin 396/496, but with the data in my 530 for backup, I'm thinking about going paperless (at least for IFR charts) and the 396/496 don't do charts. I'd like to keep the cost down, so the Garmin 696 is not on my list at the moment, but if that's the only way to keep the box count down, that might be the way I go.

The two alternatives I'm considering are the Bendix AV8OR ACE and a package based on the Fujitsu 1610 (with solid state HD, bluetooth GPS antenna, and Seattle Avionics Voyager 4 software). The price on the ACE with the Voyager software bundled[/url] is attractive. OTOH, both of those require a separate WxWorx box somewhere in the cockpit either cabled or bluetoothed to the main unit, and that's a pain if I'm jumping into someone else's airplane (which is about half my flying).

There's also the AnywhereMap ATC, but that doesn't seem to do IFR enroute charts, just approach charts. And I'm pretty much indifferent to NACO vs Jepp.

Thoughts, anyone?
Click to expand...

I liked the VistaNav thing (prior to it becoming the AV8OR) - I spent an hour or so visiting the Mecury Computer facility in Chelmsford MA to look at their products. But I didn't buy it because I couldn't find any good place to mount the thing in my cherokee 140.
 
The flight cheetah 190 (FL190) is a great platform that offers a ton of features and the databases are cheap to maintain. However, it is challenging to read in sunlight hence the reason why I sold mine.

I had no intention to go to a 696 as I was going to add WX directly to the 530. However, a friend who works for Garmin made me an offer on the 696 that I could not pass up! :yesnod:

After using the 696 for a about a month now, I have no regrets except the $$$ for the sub fees. It is easy to use, has a vivid display and is almost as feature rich as the FL190.
 
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CT Arrow said:
...SNIP... I have no regrets except the $$$ for the sub fees. It is easy to use, has a vivid display and is almost as feature rich as the FL190.
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I have the same problem. The extra fees to keep the Garmin devices up to date. That first one free doesn't cut it since you're really updating an already out of date map.
 
Ron Levy said:
Like I said, I'm looking at the Fujitsu p1610, but when you add it all up, it costs about the same as the Flight Cheetah 190 and AV8OR ACE.
Click to expand...

Just my advice based on my experience. The larger screen display of the tablet PC is nice, but it comes at the cost of multiple boxes.

May well not be the right solution for you.
 
Ron, just thinking this through, If your doing PIC courses in others plance 50% of the time my guess is those pilots probably have to use the paper Lo Alt charts and plates so and EFB would be of limited use then unless you want it to follow along. The 3/496 would be helpful and portable for Wx no matter what plane you are in. So if you want Wx 100% of the time but only need Electronic Charts 50% of the time. Perhaps the 396 is the way to go and if you really feel you want the electronic charts you go to a Kindle with Nacomatic or pdfplates and by that time there may be some 2nd hand ones on the market.
 
I have the AnywhereMap on a Tablet PC with the electronic charts and all. The most annoying part about it is finding a good place to mount the thing. I figured it out on my Aztec (using a few clamps and some zip ties), but it's cumbersome and doesn't do as well in the Archer. Moving it from place to place is harder.

The software itself I like, but I am still working on learning it some. I'm used to the Garmin which is very intuitive, and this is less so. It came with a user's manual which I will probably actually look at. Cost wise I got a great deal on it from a friend, which is why I bought it, but I really do like the system.
 
I bought a Samsung Q1 Ultra for a bit less than $1k off ebay. What attracted me to that unit was the high brightness display which is quite readable in direct sunlight.

Doesn't the Av8or use an external receiver for XM Wx? Virtually all the EFBs I've looked at do.
 
My AnywhereMap uses Bluetooth for two items: the WxWorx receiver and the GPS antenna. I find it somewhat annoying that it needs a separate GPS antenna, but the fact that it works with Bluetooth makes it less cumbersome.
 
My $0.02.

I have been using some type of paperless cockpit/XM/EFB solution for about 15 years. During this time, I have been through quite a few iterations of hardware, starting with custom software running on a laptop, moving to laptops with touchscreen remote displays, tablet PCs, and Garmin 295,296,396. I have also used a Garmin GPS10 for Bluetooth GPS and an WxWorx Bluetooth box for XM to the tablet.

Long story short, I found the cabling, interaction, in-flight storage (copilot's seat), and lack of portability to be cumbersome. So, I eliminated a lot of this equipment, and now use an XM enabled 396 for navigation, terrain, obstacle, and weather. When IFR, for charts and plates, I use a Fujitsu ST4121 tablet PC (sunlight readable) running .pdf files containing approach plates. I also carry paper plates in the plane, as I'm paranoid about a SW or PC crash hampering a flight.

I could go to a full XM and GPS enabled EFB solution on the tablet, but I really like the yoke mounted 396 with the HSI. It is easy to include in the scan, which is a big advantage over a tablet PC that would typically be kept on the copilots seat.


Ron Levy said:
OK, ol' stick-in-the-mud is considering a transition to the 21st century by going to some sort of portable EFB and weather display device. I've considered the Garmin 396/496, but with the data in my 530 for backup, I'm thinking about going paperless (at least for IFR charts) and the 396/496 don't do charts. I'd like to keep the cost down, so the Garmin 696 is not on my list at the moment, but if that's the only way to keep the box count down, that might be the way I go.

The two alternatives I'm considering are the Bendix AV8OR ACE and a package based on the Fujitsu 1610 (with solid state HD, bluetooth GPS antenna, and Seattle Avionics Voyager 4 software). The price on the ACE with the Voyager software bundled[/url] is attractive. OTOH, both of those require a separate WxWorx box somewhere in the cockpit either cabled or bluetoothed to the main unit, and that's a pain if I'm jumping into someone else's airplane (which is about half my flying).

There's also the AnywhereMap ATC, but that doesn't seem to do IFR enroute charts, just approach charts. And I'm pretty much indifferent to NACO vs Jepp.

Thoughts, anyone?
Click to expand...
 
I cannot add much to the discussion but here is my experience. I bought the Anywhere SST (Q1). Works OK but sunshine is a problem. I wanted a screen large enough to display the entire approach plate. The Q1 does this and fits on the yoke. I still need to find a better way to mount the Q1 I think I need a ball socket so the screen can be canted. I found the 696 was too big to be used in my Mooney so I went with the Q1.
 
I have the Seattle Avionics Skypad and have really found it to be a great solution.

The hardware is a convertible laptop (turn screen around for tablet functions). Its screen is just shy of 9inch diaganol so it displays approach charts very nicely.

I bought the EFB software with a lifetime chart subscription so now I always have current Sectionals, LoEnr and approach charts. The overall package is about the right size however, my next hardware upgrade will be to a straight tablet as the keyboard adds a fair amount of weight and bulk.

The software works well and it is nice to do flight planning, wx checking etc on the same unit I fly with. I simply take it to the plane and have everything I need.

Doug
 
dougwells said:
I have the Seattle Avionics Skypad and have really found it to be a great solution.

The hardware is a convertible laptop (turn screen around for tablet functions). Its screen is just shy of 9inch diaganol so it displays approach charts very nicely.

I bought the EFB software with a lifetime chart subscription so now I always have current Sectionals, LoEnr and approach charts. The overall package is about the right size however, my next hardware upgrade will be to a straight tablet as the keyboard adds a fair amount of weight and bulk.

The software works well and it is nice to do flight planning, wx checking etc on the same unit I fly with. I simply take it to the plane and have everything I need.

Doug
Click to expand...

Doug, do you use your rig for weather as well? If so, tell us about it, how stable, screen brightness and contrast, all that.
 
The SkyPad will do XM WX but I have not signed up for the service yet (plan to next summer).... part of the compromise I made with my wife when I spent the $$$.

It really bugs me that Garmin has an exclusive with XM to incorporate their WX box into their unit. I spoke with the guys at XM while at Oshkosh this year. Great product but I was not impressed with their customer service attitude....

Doug
 
Ron, I've seen, used and evaluated a number of proposed solutions, and can't find any single answer that makes sense and doesn't come with a disclaimer about what it won't do or what all has to be added on, why the operating system doesn't work, blah.

The 496 is a great box, and once you get where you're going you can throw it in the car and use it for street nav. I still have one that I use for the Zaon, and a 696 XM as well. The 696 screen and functionality are superb although I don't subscribe to the charts because I don't need them. I bought the chart book reader thing at OSH last year, but never bothered to update it or buy a subscription either, as originally intended, as my need changed when we sold the airplane.

After using a tablet in the jets and having charts on the Avidyne in our King Air, I decided that I didn't want the charts on another panel-mounted display of any kind, other than full size. In addition, I have found that I like to be able move them around in the cockpit (on my lap, by the seat, let the other guy look, etc.) and a dedicated device is just simpler than the other methods.

Since you still don't have an autopilot and it was my first addition to the panel, our views of the best way to skin this cat may differ.
 
Wayne:

I guess what I'd really like is a GDL-69 to put weather on my 530 and an EFB on my knee to lose the navbag, but that's beyond my current budget.

Ron
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My AnywhereMap uses Bluetooth for two items: the WxWorx receiver and the GPS antenna. I find it somewhat annoying that it needs a separate GPS antenna, but the fact that it works with Bluetooth makes it less cumbersome.
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We use a tablet with Anywhere Map and Airgator NavAir both loaded. We can only run one at a time because they use the same resources, but sometimes we switch mid-flight to cross-check.

One drawback we have is that the weather receiver antenna sometimes does not get a strong enough signal, depending upon our heading. We have it mounted inside next to the rear window.
 
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dougwells said:
I spoke with the guys at XM while at Oshkosh this year. Great product but I was not impressed with their customer service attitude....

Doug
Click to expand...

I've had mixed results with their service. My experience is that if you're persistent enough with what you want, you'll eventually get it. They'd told me that I could suspend service for my aviation subscription for my 496 during the winter months when I'm not traveling to aerobatic contests. Then when I called to do it they said no. Her supervisor said no. 3 times. And finally when I told them to cancel my service for good, they suspended it and put a note in my account file that said that I could reactivate next spring with no activation fee.
 
This was just announced, looks nice; vector-based Jeppesen graphics mean nice scaling; can also read any PDF and most eBook formats.

http://www.solidfx.com/FX10.htm

The SolidFX FX10 is based on iRex Digital Reader 1000S, can be used for reading e-books, newspapers and .pdf files, in addition to Jeppesen electronic charts. The full complement of Jeppesen electronic chart coverages, including a complete worldwide coverage, is available. All Jeppesen electronic chart subscriptions are updated every two weeks and updates can be downloaded from the Internet using the Jeppesen Software Update Manager (JSUM).

Jeppesen’s vector graphic electronic charts give pilots quick and easy access to approaches, standard instrument departures, standard terminal arrival routes and airport diagrams. Textual information is available using Jeppesen’s Text Viewer software and Jeppesen enroute charts are provided in their proven paper form for effective viewing of large areas.
 
Cap'm, I also have a Flight Cheetah FL190 and love it. I have the charts, sectionals, approach plates, hightway in the sky, and wx and love it. Your icon moves along the sectional charts (IFR and VFR), but does not move along the approach plates.

I Love It!
 
I have the Voyager package installed on a Samsung Q1 Ultra.

The Samsung needs a bit more computing power to run Voyager - it functions, but it's really maxing out the units capabilities. I do not have a SSD, which you will want if you plan on flying over 10,000 feet (non solid states can become unreliable in thinner air)

I really like Voyager. I was one of the original subscribers so I actually have "lifetime" charts - love that word "lifetime" wish you could do that with everyone. Their annual subscription rate isn't bad, and the unit will function as your flight planner (on a desktop at home, or work - and your EFB as well as your cockpits EFB.

There are a few combination antennas and power supplies available so you can work off of one power port.

As far as ease of use... The Garmin is probably a bit easier to use than the software driven EFB's.

Flight Cheetah - I have always heard good things from this company, mainly it's stability. There have been complaints of crashes, and longer start up times with Voyager.

That said, I still like Voyager, their customer service is excellent, and they will help you to optimize your EFB for their product. Really good guys to work with, really good product, very reasonable pricing.

To SUM it all up.

If you are more of the techno type, or you want the power and flexibility - I'd say Voyager or Flight Cheetah (don't have any experience with AVI8OR.

If you want ease of use, and dont mind the higher subscription fees, then the 696 or the new Garmin AREA may be the way to go.

Just my 2 cents
 
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After a lot of thought, and having seen the info on the new Garmin Aera series, I'm going with the Aera 510 which provides GPS and XM service in one box with one wire only for about $1300, and sticking with paper charts. See https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=156 for more on the new Aera series, and note that current selling prices are somewhat below list.
 
Ron Levy said:
After a lot of thought, and having seen the info on the new Garmin Aera series, I'm going with the Aera 510 which provides GPS and XM service in one box with one wire only for about $1300, and sticking with paper charts. See https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=156 for more on the new Aera series, and note that current selling prices are somewhat below list.
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One thing I've wondered about is how cumbersome it would be to have everything on one display: WX, maps, and approaches. Seems to me that this would involve a lot of jumping around different screens, especially when trying to keep track of an incoming storm while flying an approach.
 
gismo said:
One thing I've wondered about is how cumbersome it would be to have everything on one display: WX, maps, and approaches. Seems to me that this would involve a lot of jumping around different screens, especially when trying to keep track of an incoming storm while flying an approach.
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Well, I get the chance to check it out at the AOPA Summit, where I'll be tomorrow afternoon and Saturday. Should be able to do a good comparison with the 696 and AV8OR, and make a final decision.

And thanks to all who replied -- this turned into a very informative thread.
 
Ron,

Glad that you had so much input and were able to make an informed decision. I have been paperless (aside from backups printed from Aviator TripPack, an awesome free program) for about 2.5 years in my Six. Similar to you, I run a 530 (actually 2 530W's) in the panel, but wanted an EFB. I bought a refurbished Q1 and put ChartCase Pro, from FlightPrep, on it. It has both a planning and in-flight side to it. It gets updated online (overnight), and has has raster charts for both VFR/IFR and all approach plates, to include STARS and DPs. I mount it on my yoke and use a bluetooth GPS antenna. Very sweet, especially at night with the backlit plates.

My question for the group watching this thread has to do with weather input. I think that I'm about to buy an ATC from Anywhere Map as a backup since the Q1's battery is getting old and wouldn't run the unit for more than 10 minutes. I may also put weather into it, and would like the option of putting it into either the ChartCase Pro or the ATC, depending on my mood. I'm going to check with Anywhere Map on Monday, but has anyone heard that Anywhere Map does something special to their WxWorxs units that makes them usable with only their products? I remembering something about this, but can't find any information addressing this.

Thanks for any and all help.

V/R,
Joe
 
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