Ebola in New York now

Opposition has prevented the appointment of a Surgeon General for a year.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nat...ear-spreads/cp6NywELYMjr2naV7RCdyL/story.html
Nothing would have prevented Obama from appointing Murthy as the Ebola Czar if that's what he thought we needed. But apparently he thought we needed a lawyer instead.

***

The current Ebola "outbreak" is not a medical problem, and medical "solutions" are not going to calm people's fears. What's going to calm people down is seeing people put into quarantine before they get sick. There's no good reason why we don't quarantine everyone coming directly for the hot zone for 21 days. Or let them stay in "enlightened" Europe for 21 days before they come back here. That's how you contain it. Not by splitting hairs about vectors and likelihood of transmission. But by drawing a box around it.

So far it's pure luck, and not protocols, that have kept the virus as contained as it's been here. It's just luck that Spencer didn't puke on anyone at the bowling alley and the nurse didn't sneeze on anyone in the plane. Blind luck.
 
And the nurse that's being held against her will in NJ has hired a civil rights attorney. Lots of publicity, and little of it good. Quarantining people who are not ill or shedding virus at a location far away from home is not good policy.
 
And the nurse that's being held against her will in NJ has hired a civil rights attorney. Lots of publicity, and little of it good. Quarantining people who are not ill or shedding virus at a location far away from home is not good policy.


Gitmo? LOL.
 
The governors don't trust the scientists who oppose a mandatory quarantine for health care professionals exposed to Ebola.

The White House doesn't trust the governors. The governors don't trust the White House. Doctors don't trust nurses. Nurses don't trust hospital administrators. Hospital administrators don't trust federal officials, and the Feds don't trust them. Nobody trusts the media. The public trusts nothing.

This rampant lack of faith in each other and in our institutions is how we got to a place where the state of New Jersey is holding a courageous 33-year-old nurse hostage. After treating Ebola patients in West Africa and twice testing negative for the virus, Kaci Hickox was ordered quarantined in a cold, spartan tent outside Newark's University Hospital.

In 40 years of studying Ebola outbreaks, no one has seen a mystery case. People are infected by direct contact with others—not casual contact on buses, trains, or in the street.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/white-house/why-we-re-holding-an-ebola-nurse-hostage-20141027
 
After treating Ebola patients in West Africa and twice testing negative for the virus, Kaci Hickox was ordered quarantined in a cold, spartan tent outside Newark's University Hospital.

We treat prisoners with more dignity than this.
 
Why should we trust returning and domestic healthcare workers when they repeatedly behave so irresponsibly? Are we to believe that the nurse from Dallas getting on a plane, Nancy Sniderman going out for Chinese, or the doc in New York going bowling were the result of carefully calculated an analysed algorithms regarding their exposure and the likelihood of contracting the virus? What about the homeless guy in Dallas who was told to meet healthcare workers in two days so they could take his temp? Or Duncan's family who eventually had to be put under armed guard because they wouldn't stay put?

I don't trust anyone to look out for anyone but themselves. Isn't that why we have a government in the first place? To force people to care about more than themselves?

Someone who knows she's been exposed to Ebola (whether symptomatic or not) has absolutely zero incentive to self-quarantine (going out isn't going to make her own situation worse), its a complete PITA, and all the empirical evidence is that they won't do it.

Faith and trust don't prevent outbreaks.
 
In 40 years, nobody has been infected with ebola from casual contact.

Distrust and superstition don't help the situation.
 
In 40 years, nobody has been infected with ebola from casual contact.

Distrust and superstition don't help the situation.
When the symptomatic doctor got on the NYC subway, how did he know he was going to have only "casual contact" with the other riders? How did he know he wasn't going to barf all over them? He didn't. The only way to know that wasn't going to happen was for him to not be on the subway. And all the evidence strongly suggests that the only way to keep him (and everyone else like him) off the subway is quarantine.

As someone who lives only blocks away from both Dallas Ebola "victims" and shops at the same grocery stores, I can assure you that "trust" in the White House's knowledge of the spread of infectious diseases doesn't make me any more comfortable about feeding my daughter an apple that Amber Vinson might have handled with her sneezed-on hand before she went to Cleveland.

The only thing that can help the situation is taking away the vectors of infection. That means eliminating contact between people who might be infected and the general public. All of the objections to this that I've heard boil down to "it's not nice." Yes, it's overkill. But that just may be what it takes to stop an epidemic.
 
Quarantining people cause they might barf on you is the same as banning little airplanes because they might crash into you.
 
In 40 years, nobody has been infected with ebola from casual contact.

Distrust and superstition don't help the situation.

I don't particularly trust that the government (or WHO, etc.) are telling the truth because they all have their own political agendae. But I also oppose the quarantine as being an excessive, unnecessary, politically-motivated, knee-jerk response that tramples upon people's civil rights.

Surely there's some response that would be sufficiently cautious without making prisoners of good-hearted people. For example, they could be asked to avoid certain higher-risk activities and places until such a time when the titer level (or whatever it is they test for) in a blood test would be sufficient to conduct an accurate test, rather than being placed under house arrest or locked up in a quarantine ward.

This obviously politically-driven piece of theater makes me even more ashamed of those two buffoons running the state and the city, respectively, than I was before.

Rich
 
This rampant lack of faith in each other and in our institutions is how we got to a place where the state of New Jersey is holding a courageous 33-year-old nurse hostage.

Awesome! Did Christie actually sign the ransom note?
 
If the want to quarantine people, fine, but they have to pay them their wage. This is denial of liberty without a fair trial.
 
Why should we trust returning and domestic healthcare workers when they repeatedly behave so irresponsibly? Are we to believe that the nurse from Dallas getting on a plane, Nancy Sniderman going out for Chinese, or the doc in New York going bowling were the result of carefully calculated an analysed algorithms regarding their exposure and the likelihood of contracting the virus? What about the homeless guy in Dallas who was told to meet healthcare workers in two days so they could take his temp? Or Duncan's family who eventually had to be put under armed guard because they wouldn't stay put?

I don't trust anyone to look out for anyone but themselves. Isn't that why we have a government in the first place? To force people to care about more than themselves?

Someone who knows she's been exposed to Ebola (whether symptomatic or not) has absolutely zero incentive to self-quarantine (going out isn't going to make her own situation worse), its a complete PITA, and all the empirical evidence is that they won't do it.

Faith and trust don't prevent outbreaks.
And some folks don't trust the government because they play politics with this sort of thing.

Let me pose a question to you: we know, factually, that gun violence involving mentally is people is a problem in the US. Some have been known to purchase guns shortly before killing people. In face, more folks die from gun violence in the US than die from Ebola. Given the immediate threat to public health and safety, would you support a 21 day quarantine for anyone proposing to purchase a gun? If not, why not?
 
If the want to quarantine people, fine, but they have to pay them their wage. This is denial of liberty without a fair trial.

I think some places have quarantined people who have tested positive for TB. Apparently it's the only way to force some people to take their meds all the way through the treatment and not end up with a drug resistant form of TB. I don't know if they have been reimbursed or not, I think the majority have been homeless, or living in homeless shelters.

Here's what CDC says is the authority:
http://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

Here's the link to CDC/Tuberculosis:
http://www.cdc.gov/tb/programs/laws/menu/isolation.htm
 
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If the want to quarantine people, fine, but they have to pay them their wage. This is denial of liberty without a fair trial.

Gotta be more than that. In addition to their wage, they also need to be guaranteed their jobs back.

I also don't understand why the quarantine only applies to folks returning from West Africa and not also apply to every medical professional that has been exposed to Ebola patients here in the US.
 
I think some places have quarantined people who have tested positive for TB. Apparently it's the only way to force some people to take their meds all the way through the treatment and not end up with a drug resistant form of TB. I don't know if they have been reimbursed or not, I think the majority have been homeless, or living in homeless shelters.

Here's what CDC says is the authority:
http://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

Yes, but that's for people that are actually ill, not folks that are a symptomatic and have tested negative (like this nurse).
 
And some folks don't trust the government because they play politics with this sort of thing.

Let me pose a question to you: we know, factually, that gun violence involving mentally is people is a problem in the US.
I don't know any such thing, but I'd be happy to review your evidence. Nevertheless, it is, in fact, illegal to run around town pointing a gun at people. Even if you don't shoot anyone. And, in most places, even if it's unloaded. It's even more illegal to randomly shoot your gun in the air, even though its very unlikely to actually injure someone.

There are many analogies and strawmen we can argue with. It's so much more fun to actually discuss the facts at hand.

The nurse--who's now out of involuntary quarantine--was exposed to Ebola. There is no question about that. She, at least initially, had a fever when she returned to this country, the first symptom of the disease. So, if you were King of New Jersey, what would you have done?
 
I don't know any such thing, but I'd be happy to review your evidence. Nevertheless, it is, in fact, illegal to run around town pointing a gun at people. Even if you don't shoot anyone. And, in most places, even if it's unloaded. It's even more illegal to randomly shoot your gun in the air, even though its very unlikely to actually injure someone.

There are many analogies and strawmen we can argue with. It's so much more fun to actually discuss the facts at hand.

The nurse--who's now out of involuntary quarantine--was exposed to Ebola. There is no question about that. She, at least initially, had a fever when she returned to this country, the first symptom of the disease. So, if you were King of New Jersey, what would you have done?

First, I would not want to be King of New Jersey (shudder). But since you've thrown up that straw man, I'll bite:

Me? I'd follow the CDC guidance that's based on science. I would not take a health care professional, put her in a tent without shower or other human comforts and tell her she could not leave. I'd especially not "diagnose" her without medical knowledge and a full examination.

If you read the FACTS, her temperature when taken on a regular thermometer was normal. In fact, her original temperature was normal even on the non-contact type until they denied her food and water, failed to giver her information, and let her stew for a couple of hours. When she got to the hospital, the examining doctor proclaimed her normal. Thank goodness that they didn't hospitalize her for high blood pressure, too.

Now, you have agreed that it is illegal to do certain acts with a gun. And I think there's no doubt that there is an epidemic of gun violence in the US. Let's take Virginia Tech as just one example: 32 dead. More injured. The law prohibits purchase of guns by those that are "mentally defective". The gunman purchased the last of his guns shortly before the massacre. He had been judged to be "mentally defective".

By the logic used by the "King of New Jersey" (your words), self-reporting does not work, and therefore it is the government's responsibility to keep us safe. Since the government has no way to know whether an individual might use the gun in a criminal manner to hurt folks, it therefore must take action (such as a month-long quarantine) to observe prospective purchasers so they don't hurt others.

I am not suggesting that we should actually do that, but it is the exact same logical construct used by Mr. Christie. Duly noted that some states have waiting periods and FOID permit processes. They are not the same as state-mandated quarantine and personal observation of someone.

What I find interesting here is that many of the same people who would vociferously oppose those kinds of restrictions are also adamant about travel bans and quarantines for a disease that there is scientific evidence about. It's not like Ebola is new.

It's also interesting to note that there is no quarantine for folks treating patients here in the US, yet the governors of 3 states have taken it upon themselves to quarantine only those returning from overseas. With other epidemics, quarantines have been imposed on those that are actually sick - here, it's an assumption that someone is sick until time proves otherwise.

(Given that the patient has been released, and is subject to reasonable monitoring requirements, it appears that widespread media coverage has caused common sense to prevail. So much of the arguments on both sides become moot.)
 
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First, I would not want to be King of New Jersey (shudder). But since you've thrown up that straw man, I'll bite:

Me? I'd follow the CDC guidance that's based on science. I would not take a health care professional, put her in a tent without shower or other human comforts and tell her she could not leave. I'd especially not "diagnose" her without medical knowledge and a full examination.

If you read the FACTS, her temperature when taken on a regular thermometer was normal. In fact, her original temperature was normal even on the non-contact type until they denied her food and water, failed to giver her information, and let her stew for a couple of hours. When she got to the hospital, the examining doctor proclaimed her normal. Thank goodness that they didn't hospitalize her for high blood pressure, too.

Now, you have agreed that it is illegal to do certain acts with a gun. And I think there's no doubt that there is an epidemic of gun violence in the US. Let's take Virginia Tech as just one example: 32 dead. More injured. The law prohibits purchase of guns by those that are "mentally defective". The gunman purchased the last of his guns shortly before the massacre. He had been judged to be "mentally defective".

By the logic used by the "King of New Jersey" (your words), self-reporting does not work, and therefore it is the government's responsibility to keep us safe. Since the government has no way to know whether an individual might use the gun in a criminal manner to hurt folks, it therefore must take action (such as a month-long quarantine) to observe prospective purchasers so they don't hurt others.

I am not suggesting that we should actually do that, but it is the exact same logical construct used by Mr. Christie. Duly noted that some states have waiting periods and FOID permit processes. They are not the same as state-mandated quarantine and personal observation of someone.

What I find interesting here is that many of the same people who would vociferously oppose those kinds of restrictions are also adamant about travel bans and quarantines for a disease that there is scientific evidence about. It's not like Ebola is new.

It's also interesting to note that there is no quarantine for folks treating patients here in the US, yet the governors of 3 states have taken it upon themselves to quarantine only those returning from overseas. With other epidemics, quarantines have been imposed on those that are actually sick - here, it's an assumption that someone is sick until time proves otherwise.

(Given that the patient has been released, and is subject to reasonable monitoring requirements, it appears that widespread media coverage has caused common sense to prevail. So much of the arguments on both sides become moot.)

More likely a good lawyer lit a fire under Christie's ass.

Rich

EDIT: Actually, considering the gluteus maximus in question, make that a bonfire.
 
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The governors don't trust the scientists who oppose a mandatory quarantine for health care professionals exposed to Ebola.



The White House doesn't trust the governors. The governors don't trust the White House. Doctors don't trust nurses. Nurses don't trust hospital administrators. Hospital administrators don't trust federal officials, and the Feds don't trust them. Nobody trusts the media. The public trusts nothing.



This rampant lack of faith in each other and in our institutions is how we got to a place where the state of New Jersey is holding a courageous 33-year-old nurse hostage. After treating Ebola patients in West Africa and twice testing negative for the virus, Kaci Hickox was ordered quarantined in a cold, spartan tent outside Newark's University Hospital.



In 40 years of studying Ebola outbreaks, no one has seen a mystery case. People are infected by direct contact with others—not casual contact on buses, trains, or in the street.



http://www.nationaljournal.com/white-house/why-we-re-holding-an-ebola-nurse-hostage-20141027


It'd be really cool if it were commonplace for politicians to be competent enough again someday to trust each other, let alone us trust them.

But seeing them not trust each other speaks volumes. They know they didn't go into those jobs because they were competent professionals, successful in the private sector, who just wanted to serve their fellow man.

As far as the medical folk not trusting one another, well... From what I've heard from my wife, that's pretty well earned by many but not all of the folks she works with daily.

Some of that is just attitude. Just remember the next time you're in a hospital that there's at least 20% of the staff working on you that hasn't got any clue why they do procedures a certain way, and they're there for a paycheck. Similar to other jobs.

My favorite to hear over morning coffee is when Karen says, "so you were all unclear about the doctor's orders, so no one called the doctor and no one has seen the patient in three days?!"

I'm not kidding. I've heard her say that exact line more than once, at more than one company.

People are just plain stupid anymore. And when confronted with their own ineptitude, they really don't care. Someone else will fix it.
 
What makes them experts in the first place is that they have devoted their lives to study communicable diseases, including Ebola. The hypothesis of airborne transmission has been considered, tested and rejected, based both on infection rates and patters in nature, as well as through well controlled laboratory experiments.
Just because they are experts does not ensure that they really understand this disease. It's possible (probable in my opinion) that they won't admit the limitations of their understanding of this virus. I think they may be filling in gaps of knowledge with medical principles derived from other viruses that don't apply to Ebola.
 
Just because they are experts does not ensure that they really understand this disease. It's possible (probable in my opinion) that they won't admit the limitations of their understanding of this virus. I think they may be filling in gaps of knowledge with medical principles derived from other viruses that don't apply to Ebola.

So far that's not proving out though. I don't think anyone has claimed there were no limitations in the understanding of Ebola, otherwise we would have a vaccine by now. However as for a basic understanding of the properties of Ebola, they have had decades studying it in the laboratory and so far, what they say is panning out as accurate.
 
No, I saying. Do you have Ebola in your Red Book? How about the plague, etc. yes, you are trained in what you see daily, it's what you don't see daily that you lack all training on!

That is not entirely true. We are required to prepare for everything the State wants us to prepare for. It is true we don't have to prepare for Ebola, or other human borne blood diseases. And it is probably also true that Ebola is not specifically mentioned in the training procedures at human hospitals, your statement was that nurses are not trained for HAZMAT. You stated they have a plethora of sharps and bio bags around but no training. THAT is what is not true (I hope). I am sure they have more extensive HAZMAT training than we do. But lack of training is no excuse. From what I have read in the paper and in reader's digest (years ago), I would have know better than to go into an Ebola victims room with less than a full coverage HAZMAT suit.
 
I wish I could find the link darnit, but I recently read an article by an infectious disease doctor who thinks we're dealing with a mutation from the original Zaire strain.

It isn't airborne, but this doctor was saying it has 'supercharged itself' in the sense that the virus is multiplying much more rapidly inside the body and shedding millions more viral load than what they were seeing before.

In other words, a drop of blood contains millions more copies of the virus than the original strain counts before .
 
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I wish I could find the link darnit, but I recently read an article by an infectious disease doctor who thinks we're dealing with a mutation from the original Zaire strain.

It isn't airborne, but this doctor was saying it has 'supercharged itself' in the sense that the virus is multiplying much more rapidly inside the body and shedding millions more viral load than what they were seeing before.

In other words, a drop of blood contains millions more copies of the virus than the original strain counts before .

That would not surprise me at all.
 
I wish I could find the link darnit, but I recently read an article by an infectious disease doctor who thinks we're dealing with a mutation from the original Zaire strain.

It isn't airborne, but this doctor was saying it has 'supercharged itself' in the sense that the virus is multiplying much more rapidly inside the body and shedding millions more viral load than what they were seeing before.

In other words, a drop of blood contains millions more copies of the virus than the original strain counts before .

'Thinks' we're dealing with a different strain?:confused: I've been reading this is a different strain from Zaire from the beginning, I've even read it Ebola Liberia.:dunno: There are several known mutation from Zaire, including the one in the US Patent.
 
Superbola if you get it and live can you sue the NFL?
 
'Thinks' we're dealing with a different strain?:confused: I've been reading this is a different strain from Zaire from the beginning, I've even read it Ebola Liberia.:dunno: There are several known mutation from Zaire, including the one in the US Patent.


I don't know anything for sure, but ...

I thought I read that this one that is causing all the infections in Africa is the original Zaire strain, but now they're thinking it is a supercharged mutation of it. That's why this outbreak is so bad and the others before were not. MAYBE. :dunno: Wish I could find that link ...

Ebola is learning.
 
There are 5 strains of Ebola, but 4 of them are transferable to human. Ebola can easily go from animal to human and back, except the 1 known strain. Another point is that bats and monkeys are known to carry ebola and are a delicacy in West Africa.

Food for thought :)
 
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