Early 80s A36 Bonanza vs. Saratoga

sba55 said:
Funny Kent, and not informative. At least I have significant time in both, unlike yourself.
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How many hours do I need to bump my head before I decide I don't fit well? :dunno:

I thought it was funny - You are clearly, IMHO of course, a Beech fanatic. ;)
 
I went through the same decision-making process. Saratoga or Bo?

I bought a Matrix. :wink2:

Speed and comfort. At a price.:(
 
flyersfan31 said:
I went through the same decision-making process. Saratoga or Bo?

I bought a Matrix. :wink2:

Speed and comfort. At a price.:(
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Speed? It's 5 knots faster than a NA Bonanza with the IO550 and quite a bit slower than a turbo'd Bo...

Then again, I've never understood the point of that plane. Heavy, for no reason.

-Felix
 
sba55 said:
Speed? It's 5 knots faster than a NA Bonanza with the IO550 and quite a bit slower than a turbo'd Bo...

Then again, I've never understood the point of that plane. Heavy, for no reason.
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An airplane that goes fast, but that you can't get comfortable in, is not very useful. Not everyone can fit well in a Bonanza.
 
jmaynard said:
An airplane that goes fast, but that you can't get comfortable in, is not very useful. Not everyone can fit well in a Bonanza.
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I doubt that. Of course, Bo != Bo. There's a lot of different models....and if you have a V model with only 4 seats, you have more space than any other 4 seater I've ever seen.
 
Is the curvature of the upper fuselage different in the 35's? I had an S, it wasn't comfortable either. But flying Bo's is a good way to keep your wardrobe up to date. You can wear out lots of trousers and rip out quite a few seat-britches doing the scuffle and scoot to the left seat.

sba55 said:
I doubt that. Of course, Bo != Bo. There's a lot of different models....and if you have a V model with only 4 seats, you have more space than any other 4 seater I've ever seen.
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flyersfan31 said:
I went through the same decision-making process. Saratoga or Bo?

I bought a Matrix. :wink2:

Speed and comfort. At a price.:(
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Yeah, I have thought about the 80s vintage Mirage / Malibu at times (cost of a new Matrix is out of the question), but the price would require finding a couple of partners who want the same thing. Known Ice and Pressurization would be really appealing, but from what I've seen, the useful load (with reasonalbe fuel onboard) of the Malibu or Mirage is substantially lower than the A36 or Saratoga. Of course the speed is way higher (particularly Eastbound at high altitudes with a nice tailwind).

Some of the used P210s are priced right, but the insurance, maintenance, etc... are way too expensive, and those cheaper P210s probably have scary maintenance costs. In general all 210s appear to have astronomical insurance from the small amount of research I did. I was surprised to learn that I can get insured cheaper in a Baron than a T210, and I only have 3 hours of total multi time in an Apache (of course I would need to complete the multi rating first).

How is the useful load on the Matrix compared to the Malibu/Mirage? I would assume it is a fair amount higher without the weight of the pressure vessel.

Thanks,
Eric
 
wabower said:
Is the curvature of the upper fuselage different in the 35's? I had an S, it wasn't comfortable either. But flying Bo's is a good way to keep your wardrobe up to date. You can wear out lots of trousers and rip out quite a few seat-britches doing the scuffle and scoot to the left seat.
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The exterior of the cabin never changed from day one AFaIK. On the inside there were some changes made over the years in several areas that affect how a large pilot would fit. And as I think I mentioned already, when the upholstery is redone the thickness of the lower seat cushions often changes leaving more or less headroom than the plane left the factory with. IOW just because you do or don't fit in one Bonanza, doesn't necessarily mean you will or won't fit in a different one, even from the same year.
 
bartscher said:
I was surprised to learn that I can get insured cheaper in a Baron than a T210, and I only have 3 hours of total multi time in an Apache (of course I would need to complete the multi rating first).
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That seems strange...


Trapper John
 
Trapper John said:
That seems strange...


Trapper John
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I agree, I thought it was really weird that 2 insurance companies at OSH last year quoted me lower rates on a Baron than a T210. Of course they wanted me to do 20-25 hours dual in the Baron including finishing the multi rating where the T210 required about 5 hours, but the rates were significantly lower on the twin for similar hull values.

Generally I've seen rates on the 210 run 70% to 100% higher than on the A36 and Saratoga (as of last Summer) which is one reason it was eliminated from consideration. I have to admit I haven't looked into 210 insurance lately so maybe it has changed.

Eric
 
sba55 said:
jmaynard said:
An airplane that goes fast, but that you can't get comfortable in, is not very useful. Not everyone can fit well in a Bonanza.
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I doubt that.
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See previous postings from us tall folks. Ironically, while the Bo has the reputation of being big and comfy and the Mooney has the reputation of being tiny, I found that I fit WAY better in the Mooney. Of course, that's probably because Al Mooney was even taller than me.
 
bartscher said:
I agree, I thought it was really weird that 2 insurance companies at OSH last year quoted me lower rates on a Baron than a T210. Of course they wanted me to do 20-25 hours dual in the Baron including finishing the multi rating where the T210 required about 5 hours, but the rates were significantly lower on the twin for similar hull values.

Generally I've seen rates on the 210 run 70% to 100% higher than on the A36 and Saratoga (as of last Summer) which is one reason it was eliminated from consideration. I have to admit I haven't looked into 210 insurance lately so maybe it has changed.
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Doubtful. I just spoke with Avemco about 3 weeks ago and they said that there's been a pretty horrific rate of landing gear collapses in 210's the past year. That's why they're expensive to insure.
 
dmccormack said:
At 6'1", I havent had nary a bump in an A36 or a straight 35 (and both were flown in some fairly bumpy air).

Of course snug lap belts and standard (not excessive) seat cushions may provide the requisite room.
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FWIW, I normally fit in Bonanzas with plenty of room above my head, even with the seat all the way forward (which is my preferred position ).

But.

I have flown in one in which my head was bumping the cabin roof badly, and my knees were so far up that I had a hard time even handling the yoke on landing, as my legs interfered with its motion. As it works out, the beautiful interior had been redone with very high density foam, and built up a fair bit as well, and the seat was simply making me sit up a lot higher than normal, or (IMHO) wise.

It was also not particularly comfortable.

YMMV, but in general, a Bonanza should be able to be reasonably roomy for most builds, but it can never measure-up to the size of a Saratoga, Six or Lance.

I found the Malibu adequately comfortable, assuming you can manage to remarkable gyrations called-for to actually get into the cockpit, assume the Matix is the same.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Doubtful. I just spoke with Avemco about 3 weeks ago and they said that there's been a pretty horrific rate of landing gear collapses in 210's the past year. That's why they're expensive to insure.
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I wonder if the rate of gear collapses is accelerating significantly due to the aging of the fleet of 210s. I've always heard of instances where 210s have gear issues, so this doesn't seem like a new thing. This could certainly make sense as the reason insurance is going up so much.

Eric
 
owners probably can't afford proper gear system maintenance since they are spending all their money on insurance :)
 
sba55 said:
I doubt that. Of course, Bo != Bo. There's a lot of different models....and if you have a V model with only 4 seats, you have more space than any other 4 seater I've ever seen.
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If you think any person built can comfortably fit in a Bonanza--then well--your mind needs some opening up.
 
Was it Bob V's A-36?

SCCutler said:
FWIW, I normally fit in Bonanzas with plenty of room above my head, even with the seat all the way forward (which is my preferred position ).

But.

I have flown in one in which my head was bumping the cabin roof badly, and my knees were so far up that I had a hard time even handling the yoke on landing, as my legs interfered with its motion. As it works out, the beautiful interior had been redone with very high density foam, and built up a fair bit as well, and the seat was simply making me sit up a lot higher than normal, or (IMHO) wise.

It was also not particularly comfortable.

YMMV, but in general, a Bonanza should be able to be reasonably roomy for most builds, but it can never measure-up to the size of a Saratoga, Six or Lance.

I found the Malibu adequately comfortable, assuming you can manage to remarkable gyrations called-for to actually get into the cockpit, assume the Matix is the same.
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wabower said:
Was it Bob V's A-36?
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Negative-

It was an F33A that was on lease-back at Classic and (embarrassingly enough) I do not know the owner's name. Beautiful plane, flew like a dream, but I dang near lost it when I was landing in a crosswind and my fool leg got in the way; had to scooch sideways a little bit, and (of course) apply the universal wind-correction word.
 
tonycondon said:
owners probably can't afford proper gear system maintenance since they are spending all their money on insurance :)
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:rofl: Post of the week!

SCCutler said:
I dang near lost it when I was landing in a crosswind and my fool leg got in the way; had to scooch sideways a little bit, and (of course) apply the universal wind-correction word.
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:rofl: Since we already have a post of the week, I guess this has to be post of the day. ;)
 
Mine was within a few bucks of the same for both airplanes. Maybe it has changed, but I'd be surprised if it's that much difference. You can ask for the hull rate component of the quote to get apples-to-apples comparison.

bartscher said:
I agree, I thought it was really weird that 2 insurance companies at OSH last year quoted me lower rates on a Baron than a T210. Of course they wanted me to do 20-25 hours dual in the Baron including finishing the multi rating where the T210 required about 5 hours, but the rates were significantly lower on the twin for similar hull values.

Generally I've seen rates on the 210 run 70% to 100% higher than on the A36 and Saratoga (as of last Summer) which is one reason it was eliminated from consideration. I have to admit I haven't looked into 210 insurance lately so maybe it has changed.

Eric
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bartscher said:
How is the useful load on the Matrix compared to the Malibu/Mirage? I would assume it is a fair amount higher without the weight of the pressure vessel.
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The lack of pressurization accounts for only a small part of the 200+ pounds more standard useful load in a Matrix vs Mirage. The bulk of it stems from things left out of the Matrix -- most of which can be added to the Matrix. Conversely, it could also be left out of the Mirage if Piper were so inclined. Things like deice (optional on Matrix), wing-mounted radar pod (optional on Matrix), third panel display. Piper says there are 278 modified or eliminated parts, but of course won't say what all of them are. As far as I know, the only thing added to the Matrix is the built-in 50 cu ft O2 tank.

As for the pressure vessel, I believe the only changes are single-pane windows instead of double, no outflow valve, no controller. But don't quote me on that. My research on the matter was almost a year ago.
 
I've got about 70 hours in a Saratoga, and only about 10 in a Deb. I know it isn't a fair comparison, but here's what I've got to say: Saratoga is an awesome travelin' machine. A bit heavy on the controls, but you're on the road--you gonna do barrel rolls? The Deb was sweet and light and fun.

And that's all I got to say about Viet-Nam
 
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