Dual Instruction Requirements

[GB403]

After researching several SoCal flight school websites and requesting information regarding PPL and Instrument Pilot requirements, I have questions about the time minimums for dual instruction. I'm assuming dual instruction means time that an flight instructor is required to be in the airplane with the student (time which the student pays the instructor's rate).

Example flight school listed:
Private Pilot (Single & Multi engine), requirements:
40 hours total flight time (minimum).

• 
  According to §61.109 Aeronautical experience "at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor". I interpret this to mean I only legally need 20 hours of instruction.

Instrument Pilot (Single & Multi Engine), requirements:
40 hours Dual instruction.

• 
  According to §61.65 Instrument rating requirements "15 hours must have been received from an authorized instructor".

• 
  If the flight school states 40 hours of dual for IFR training various the legal minimum of 15 hours, is the school trying to take advantage of unsuspecting students?

• 
  Or is 40 hours of dual realistically needed to successfully learn and master instrument training with an instructor?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Keep in mind, those are MINIMUM times. Most people take longer. As for the instrument requirements, it is best to do the 40 hours with an instructor vs. a safety pilot. That way, you don't develops bad habits that an instructor has to undo.

And no, they are not trying to take advantage of people.

 

[jordane93]

I agree with the post above.

 

[murphey]

Apples and oranges. Requirements for Private vs instrument are very different. For thr private, minimum 20 hours with instructor. For the instrument, you already know how to control the airplane, now you're leaning new material without being allowed to loom outside. Hence fewer hours required.

In reality, a miniscule number of people finish the private in the minimum required hours.

 

[GB403]

Apples and oranges. Requirements for Private vs instrument are very different. For thr private, minimum 20 hours with instructor. For the instrument, you already know how to control the airplane, now you're leaning new material without being allowed to loom outside. Hence fewer hours required.

In reality, a miniscule number of people finish the private in the minimum required hours.

murphey...thanks for the reply. However this was not question of PPL vs. Instrument requirements. This was a question about the required dual instruction time stated by the flight school compared against the Part 61 recommended dual instruction requirement. I just wanted feedback on why FS and Part 61 standards were not aligned. Part 61 is simply the minimums and FS based dual times on their averages.

 

[James331]

60hrs total time is a good number to budget on, and it's not the solo that most guys go over mins on.

141 is much more cookie cutter, and regimented one size fits all by he Feds.

61 gives you more room to customize.

A EXPERIENCED instructor in a pt61 environment is the best way to train.

Green horn CFIs and not so great CFI often do better by the paint by numbers 141 system, it's likley the school is hesitant to switch it up, easier if everyone is doing pt141, it also helps if they have higher CFI turn over, ether way not a environment I'd spend my money in.

 

[mscard88]

Pretty black and white what the requirements are IMO.

 

[luvflyin]

murphey...thanks for the reply. However this was not question of PPL vs. Instrument requirements. This was a question about the required dual instruction time stated by the flight school compared against the Part 61 recommended dual instruction requirement. I just wanted feedback on why FS and Part 61 standards were not aligned. Part 61 is simply the minimums and FS based dual times on their averages.

Try looking at it like this. If the school advertised the Part 61 minimums, implying that was all you'd need to get rated with them, then that would be deceptive. Advertising realistic numbers is the opposite of deception.

 

[James331]

Pretty black and white what the requirements are IMO.

Not really bud.

Not for someone who has never done any flight training.

To the non flying public it looks like you hit mins an you get your ticket, as a CFI it bothers me when schools ADVERTISE like this.

 

[SkyDog58]

Not really bud.

Not for someone who has never done any flight training.

To the non flying public it looks like you hit mins an you get your ticket, as a CFI it bothers me when schools ADVERTISE like this.

But wouldn't that be like saying if you come to class every day in high school or college, you will graduate and get a diploma regardless of how well you did? People should inherently realize that isn't so.

 

[Hank S]

Looks to me like they are advertising what it typically takes to finish up. Last I heard, the nationL average for PPL was about 60-62 hours, but I don't think they reported a breakdown if solo vs. dual hours.

At any rate, whether PPL or Instrument, you will fly as many hours as needed for you to perform at a level the instructor thinks is safe and that meets FAA checkride standards (see the PTS or whatever they just changes it's name to for a detailed list if requirements; there is a separate one for every certificate, published inexpensively by the FAA and should be available for free download.)

 

[James331]

But wouldn't that be like saying if you come to class every day in high school or college, you will graduate and get a diploma regardless of how well you did? People should inherently realize that isn't so.

Compared to aviation, yeah school is come to class every day and you get a diploma/degree, no idiot left behind and all.

 

[Shawn]

Private Pilot (Single & Multi engine), requirements:
40 hours total flight time (minimum).

• 
  According to §61.109 Aeronautical experience "at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor". I interpret this to mean I only legally need 20 hours of instruction.

Correct in that 40 hour minimum in order to get your PPL, at least 20 of those hours are "dual instruction" with the CFI sitting in the right seat. Reaming 20 hours can be made up from solo flights, some SIM time, etc...but it all will be instruction. Some will just not be with a CFI physically in the right seat.

What everyone is trying to say is that there is only a minuscule percentage of people that can be proficient enough with just those minimums and the average is closer to 60 hours with a majority of that time being dual even though only 20 is legally required. If you can do it in less...great...some do, but many do not.

Here is a full breakdown of PPL requirements.

Aeronautical Experience (14 CFR 61.109):

• 40 hours of flight time (35 for 141 schools) that includes:
  • 20 hours of dual instruction
  • 10 hours of solo flight training
• 3 hours of cross-country dual
• 3 hours of night dual (to get an unrestricted license) that includes:
  • 1 cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance
  • 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport
• 3 hours of instrument dual
• 3 hours of dual in preparation for the practical test within 2 calendar months
• 10 hours of solo including
  • 5 hours of cross-country time
  • 1 150 NM solo cross country flight, with full-stop landings at three points and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 NM between the takeoff and landing locations
  • 3 takeoffs and 3 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower

 

[denverpilot]

It'll take what it takes. The minimums are simply that, minimums. Most folks average a little above minimums. The most important thing to consider is how often you can fly. If you have large breaks between flights then things will be forgotten, take longer to internalize, etc. A consistent schedule will help more than anything.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

I think I understand the question you are asking. The school is right on the private. It does take 40 total hours to get the license. 20 of that has to be with an instructor, 10 of it has to be solo, and then 10 hours to do with as you/your instructor see fit(usually dual).

For the instrument, yeah only 15 hours of that needs to be with an instructor, but they are assuming you come to them with no safety pilot. Yeah I think it takes close to 40 hours. Depending on your location, you may have to travel to do approaches, travel to a VOR to practice holding, DME arcs, etc. I found I was flying longer flights for the instrument, but not accomplishing as many new tasks in that time as I was during the private. Do I think the school is trying to take you for a ride? No.

 

[jnbcfi]

murphey...thanks for the reply. However this was not question of PPL vs. Instrument requirements. This was a question about the required dual instruction time stated by the flight school compared against the Part 61 recommended dual instruction requirement. I just wanted feedback on why FS and Part 61 standards were not aligned. Part 61 is simply the minimums and FS based dual times on their averages.

If the flight school you are looking into is a Part 141 school, you need to be aware that 141 and 61 have different training requirements. You are correct in looking in Part 61 for Part 61 training operations BUT for the 141 requirements you have to look at that individual school's Training Course Outline (which has been approved by the FAA). Those minimums are what they are allowed to advertise. Generally, you will find that 141 programs require more dual and mandatory ground school. In compensation they can grant certificates and ratings in less Total Time.

 

[Rykymus]

Part 61 Instrument requires 15hrs of Dual instruction, and 40hrs of simulated or actual instrument time. (aka Under the Hood) The 15hrs of instruction is NOT the same thing as the hood time. You don't have to be under the hood to get instruction. The entire flight is instruction time, hood or not. Some will argue that last fact, so I checked with the local FSDO.

By the time I'm finished, I will likely have about 20hrs of instruction (15 of which was under the hood), 60hrs of total simulated instrument (hood) time, (40 of which was with a safety pilot who has his IR, and is a CFI but not double I) and the rest with a safety pilot that only has his PPL. In addition, I probably flew at least 50hrs worth of approaches on my own (w/ATC) in VFR and no hood. (It helps.)

 

[GB403]

I think I understand the question you are asking. The school is right on the private. It does take 40 total hours to get the license. 20 of that has to be with an instructor, 10 of it has to be solo, and then 10 hours to do with as you/your instructor see fit(usually dual).

For the instrument, yeah only 15 hours of that needs to be with an instructor, but they are assuming you come to them with no safety pilot. Yeah I think it takes close to 40 hours. Depending on your location, you may have to travel to do approaches, travel to a VOR to practice holding, DME arcs, etc. I found I was flying longer flights for the instrument, but not accomplishing as many new tasks in that time as I was during the private. Do I think the school is trying to take you for a ride? No.

ok. Thanks for the input. At this point I understand the average time for completion of PPL and IFR training. I'm on a tight budget and need to get from PPL to ATP in the most timely, realistic, cost-efficient manner. Dissecting the FAR gives me the law, however the flight practice will bring it all together.

 

[hockeyrcks9901]

ok. Thanks for the input. At this point I understand the average time for completion of PPL and IFR training. I'm on a tight budget and need to get from PPL to ATP in the most timely, realistic, cost-efficient manner. Dissecting the FAR gives me the law, however the flight practice will bring it all together.

Tight budget and flying don't go together...

It's an expensive proposition and you will spend a lot of money, most likely more than your initial estimate.

 

[DoubleD]

One key point relevant to the OP's question and not clear from the above responses is that 15 hours of dual instruction for the instrument rating must be from an "authorized instructor", i.e., a CFII. There is an additional requirement of a minimum of 40 hours of "actual or simulated instrument time". Understanding this, the flight school's requirements will make more sense. Fifteen hours of instrument instruction is not much to prepare for the rating.