drugs and flying common in GA?

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Dave Krall CFII

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Dave Krall CFII SEL SES, Cmcl HELI
Gear DOWN amphib water landings and flight safety in general commentary....
We had a gear down amphib fatal water landing out here last summer by an experienced amphib pilot not known for recklessness. I have long postulated that besides the individual pilot workload being high in amphibs that "drugs" also play a significant role in not only amphib but many of aviation accidents, especially recreational flying or "fun" flying.

One of the "drugs" most commonly involved are naturally formed endorphins from the PIC's brain. Among its POWERFUL effects is what is commonly referred to by athletes as "runner's high". Although naturally occurring, these effects can be very harmful to rational and timely decision making by pilots, and just as dangerous as any illegal drug's effects.

The mechanism of this very common scenario is the joy of flight itself being actually experienced by the pilot in command to a detrimental level. This is particularly easy to succumb to in amphibs because of their high versatility and the environments that they can fly their occupants into. Everyone has heard that drugs make you stupid, and/or make you feel "drugged". This happens to some extent every time a pilot takes flight for fun but, how much and how well the endorphic effect is managed is the critical and highly variable factor.

Since private flight training, I learned not to relax too much and enjoy a flight too much until I'm back on the ground. People ask me if I find flying relaxing and my reply is always "Hell no! I will relax when I'm on the ground!" And that's what I will do, reflecting later on the amazing flights we have just completed and enjoying them to the max at those postflight times.

Now also consider, piled on top of the detrimental endorphic effects present in all flying for fun, adding the common and well known judgmental and reaction time impairments of mild to moderate hypoxia often present and synergistically enhancing the endorphins at high DA and you have a real recipe for disaster -Synergistic Hypoxoendorphinism. It's amazing we don't have more accidents than we do.

If we were to encourage more Regs, which I do not, it would be mandatory for all pilots to not only study the Nall Report each year but, also to submit a brief analysis as to the general and specific whys and wherefores of all the different accident categories, especially those flown by that studying pilot.

It is mandatory for all my flight students to look up and study the Nall Report and make substantial comments to me on that year's report, and the summary listed of previous year's averages.
__________________
Flying, flight instruction, STOL Amphibion design and flight testing for the noblest of all reasons: Because It Is Cool
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So flying for fun is now dangerous and only a state of subdued panic is safe.:dunno: Another couple dozen lurker wannabe pilots just read the OP and are now shopping for jetskis instead of flight schools.*sigh* Maybe we need a new safety campaign 'Flying happy may result in loss of happy ending.' As for drug use, understand everyone does drugs except for the middle class, difference between the rich druggies and poor druggies is rich people can function/control their use.
 
Interesting concept Dave. Don't have an opinion on its accuracy but it sure would be interesting to have a brain scientist do some studies on pilots before during and after a flight. They do it on drivers, people having sex, people eating things like chocolate. It would be cool to see the effects on the brain at different phases of flight.
 
Sounds like we are trying to find yet another way to rationalize the fact that "S" happens.

Humans have never been good at performing complex repetitive tasks over a long period of time without error.

If we want to increase our safety look to the best aviation safety record, air carriers, and in every way possible emulate their operations and limitations.

Otherwise, enjoy your life and fly as much as you can. In the end one thing or another gets us all.
 
ClimbnSink said:
So flying for fun is now dangerous and only a state of subdued panic is safe.:dunno: Another couple dozen lurker wannabe pilots just read the OP and are now shopping for jetskis instead of flight schools.*sigh* Maybe we need a new safety campaign 'Flying happy may result in loss of happy ending.' As for drug use, understand everyone does drugs except for the middle class, difference between the rich druggies and poor druggies is rich people can function/control their use.
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Interesting magnification of possible negative conclusions you have managed to come up with there....

I'd say if anyone from wannabes to experienced pilots read it all and sincerely came up with your views in sufficient strength to convert them to Jetskiism, then good riddance from GA.

Could you amplify specifically on your last statement?
__________________
Flying, flight instruction, STOL Amphibion design and flight testing for the noblest of all reasons: Because It Is Cool
 
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Alexb2000 said:
Sounds like we are trying to find yet another way to rationalize the fact that "S" happens.
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Agreed. I really can't see wiping myself out because I was cheesing too hard over how much fun I was having.
 
dell30rb said:
Agreed. I really can't see wiping myself out because I was cheesing too hard over how much fun I was having.
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The wiping out part usually kills the buzz from too much fun! :mad2:
 
Alexb2000 said:
Sounds like we are trying to find yet another way to rationalize the fact that "S" happens.

Humans have never been good at performing complex repetitive tasks over a long period of time without error.

If we want to increase our safety look to the best aviation safety record, air carriers, and in every way possible emulate their operations and limitations.

Otherwise, enjoy your life and fly as much as you can. In the end one thing or another gets us all.
Click to expand...

Rationalize? I thought it was more of an objective explanation, as do the vast majority of its readers over the last year in other places. Mostly, it's experienced pilots that have experienced this rather common phenomenon and can readily attest to its effects, although it is present in many other activities.

Your third sentence leans towards a possible solution that is both alluded to in my article and has been attempted in flight training over many years and will continue to be used, because it actually does help with flight safety in GA to use air carrier methods.

Part of the reason for this success in improved flight safety by air carriers is their minimization of subjective decisions that are practically unlimited in GA. That's one big reason why GA is so much more demanding than commercial air services have been or will ever be, and it is a big reason why we pursue it.
__________________
Flying, flight instruction, STOL Amphibion design and flight testing for the noblest of all reasons: Because It Is Cool
 
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AdamZ said:
Interesting concept Dave. Don't have an opinion on its accuracy but it sure would be interesting to have a brain scientist do some studies on pilots before during and after a flight. They do it on drivers, people having sex, people eating things like chocolate. It would be cool to see the effects on the brain at different phases of flight.
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Thank you, Adam. You can rest assured it is correct, and will be formally proven. In the meantime the best thing for PICs to do is be aware of hypoxic hyperendorphism and guard against its ill effects.

A somewhat analogous situation is people drinking alcohol in a pressurized airliner cabin, the pressure of which is significantly lower than their normal atmospheric pressure in which they live, and experiencing amplified psychophysical effects by the synergy between minor hypoxia and alcohol consumption.
__________________
Flying, flight instruction, STOL Amphibion design and flight testing for the noblest of all reasons: Because It Is Cool
 
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Dave Krall CFII said:
Thank you, Adam. You can rest assured it is correct, and will be formally proven. In the meantime the best thing for PICs to do is be aware of hypoxic hyperendorphism and guard against its ill effects.
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Sounds like the best medicine here is to fly something totally horrible and un-fun. Lake Buccaneers come to mind, along with certain oddball piper products.

Extending the concept, IFR might be safer with one of those shotgun panels, with instruments everywhere. My focus will not be destroyed by getting into that "zen" moment of "hey, this is cool"

:rolleyes:

While my life is enjoyable and even sometimes intoxicatingly so, I hope that I will always have enough presence of mind to kick anyone square in the bonch for saying "hypoxic hyperendorphism" to me.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
One of the "drugs" most commonly involved are naturally formed endorphins from the PIC's brain. Among its POWERFUL effects is what is commonly referred to by athletes as "runner's high". Although naturally occurring, these effects can be very harmful to rational and timely decision making by pilots, and just as dangerous as any illegal drug's effects.​
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Natural endorphins can be as dangerous as illegal drugs?

So ... what drugs were you on when you invented that assertion?

You have invented a theory and without any supporting evidence proceed to assume it is plausible and common enough to develop strategies to cope with it.

Have fun with that! (Or not - might be dangerous.)
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Thank you, Adam. You can rest assured it is correct, and will be formally proven. In the meantime the best thing for PICs to do is be aware of hypoxic hyperendorphism and guard against its ill effects.
Click to expand...

Sorry, Dave. That's some serious circular reasoning.

Until it's formally proven, you don't know it's correct. The most you can say is that it's plausible. Uncontrolled "experiments" and anecdotal "evidence" are VERY often wrong.
 
dell30rb said:
Agreed. I really can't see wiping myself out because I was cheesing too hard over how much fun I was having.
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Try thinking of it as "subtly insidious"....
__________________
Flying, flight instruction, STOL Amphibion design and flight testing for the noblest of all reasons: Because It Is Cool
 
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Dave Krall CFII said:
Interesting magnification of possible negative conclusions you have managed to come up with there....

I'd say if anyone from wannabes to experienced pilots read it all and sincerely came up with your views in sufficient strength to convert them to Jetskiism, then good riddance from GA.

Could you amplify specifically on your last statement?
Click to expand...

I was trying to figure out the middle class exclusion and the ability of the rich to handle their drugs better than the poor...:dunno:
 
AdamZ said:
Interesting concept Dave. Don't have an opinion on its accuracy but it sure would be interesting to have a brain scientist do some studies on pilots before during and after a flight. They do it on drivers, people having sex, people eating things like chocolate. It would be cool to see the effects on the brain at different phases of flight.
Click to expand...

So, since I typically eat a half a pound of chocolate on a cross country along with a fair dose of caffeine, plus I often really enjoy the view at 25' AGL at 3 miles a minute, I should probably load my smokes with some heroin to balance everything out?:D
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Could you amplify specifically on your last statement?
Click to expand...

The only population not using drugs at high rates is the dorky middleclass. The bottom of society has all sorts of problems related to drugs, the top use plenty of drugs but are able to avoid many of the negative effects.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Gear DOWN amphib water landings and flight safety in general commentary....
We had a gear down amphib fatal water landing out here last summer by an experienced amphib pilot not known for recklessness. I have long postulated that besides the individual pilot workload being high in amphibs that "drugs" also play a significant role in not only amphib but many of aviation accidents, especially recreational flying or "fun" flying.

One of the "drugs" most commonly involved are naturally formed endorphins from the PIC's brain. Among its POWERFUL effects is what is commonly referred to by athletes as "runner's high". Although naturally occurring, these effects can be very harmful to rational and timely decision making by pilots, and just as dangerous as any illegal drug's effects.

The mechanism of this very common scenario is the joy of flight itself being actually experienced by the pilot in command to a detrimental level. This is particularly easy to succumb to in amphibs because of their high versatility and the environments that they can fly their occupants into. Everyone has heard that drugs make you stupid, and/or make you feel "drugged". This happens to some extent every time a pilot takes flight for fun but, how much and how well the endorphic effect is managed is the critical and highly variable factor.

Since private flight training, I learned not to relax too much and enjoy a flight too much until I'm back on the ground. People ask me if I find flying relaxing and my reply is always "Hell no! I will relax when I'm on the ground!" And that's what I will do, reflecting later on the amazing flights we have just completed and enjoying them to the max at those postflight times.

Now also consider, piled on top of the detrimental endorphic effects present in all flying for fun, adding the common and well known judgmental and reaction time impairments of mild to moderate hypoxia often present and synergistically enhancing the endorphins at high DA and you have a real recipe for disaster -Synergistic Hypoxoendorphinism. It's amazing we don't have more accidents than we do.

If we were to encourage more Regs, which I do not, it would be mandatory for all pilots to not only study the Nall Report each year but, also to submit a brief analysis as to the general and specific whys and wherefores of all the different accident categories, especially those flown by that studying pilot.

It is mandatory for all my flight students to look up and study the Nall Report and make substantial comments to me on that year's report, and the summary listed of previous year's averages.
​
Click to expand...

Not sure where the "high workload" in amphibs comes in. I can't see anything other than one extra check (UP for water DOWN for land) and a different set of environmental evaluations due to the operating medium, but then I've only flown amphib helicopters. As for the effects of endorphins it might be a factor in new pilots but after the "new" wears off flying is just another skill set to apply to a task. Once up and cruising I enjoy the view, but for landing and takeoff I'm in the task, not jazzing over how cool it is.
 
Never heard of endorphins making you dopey... my personal experience is that after an aerobic workout I might feel pretty damn good, but calm and alert. Also, the fun of flying, for me, is not even quite the same "high" I get from that kind of thing. Aerobatics or soaring come pretty close, but the common everyday "gee whiz" feeling I get from flying? Not really. It's not even the same thrill as a roller coaster ride or something like that.
If we want to look into pilot's bodies and brains for causes of accidents, I'd say fatigue is a much more common- and insidious- culprit.
 
I often wonder how much of the cognitive effects of low grade hypoxia from flying at 6,000 to 10,000 ft MSL (especially for we "flatlanders") last after the "numbers come back up" on a pulse oximeter. Anyone who has run distance events will tell you that it takes time for the pyruvate and lactate to clear from muscles. I would suspect the same is true for the brain. Even the muscle tissue issue alone could theoretically cause delays in response times. Back when I used to run long distances, I would develop what my girlfriend at the time used to call the "staggers" or "jelly legs" after extended runs. A sports medicine colleague of mine said it was not uncommon and was the result of my body clearing the byproducts of metabolism under reduced oxygen tensions.

I spent a bit looking for some evidence in the aerospace physiology literature but couldn't find much. I suspect the "status quo" approach of the FAA has something to do with the reason why there is a lack of research. If asked, I would say that a lot of the "stupid" crashes (fuel exhaustion, gear up landings, etc) are more complex than just "the pilot wasn't paying attention" or "the pilot was a freaking moron".
 
Never heard of endorphins making you dopey... my personal experience is that after an aerobic workout I might feel pretty damn good, but calm and alert.
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There's some evidence I recall seeing in the psychology literature that it causes a narrowed focus and a tendency to underplay the seriousness of situations. They are nothing more than endogenous narcotics after all. The "damn good but calm and alert" feeling may be misleading in a situation where the ability to feel a little uneasy may save your ass.
 
rottydaddy said:
Never heard of endorphins making you dopey... my personal experience is that after an aerobic workout I might feel pretty damn good, but calm and alert. Also, the fun of flying, for me, is not even quite the same "high" I get from that kind of thing. Aerobatics or soaring come pretty close, but the common everyday "gee whiz" feeling I get from flying? Not really. It's not even the same thrill as a roller coaster ride or something like that.
If we want to look into pilot's bodies and brains for causes of accidents, I'd say fatigue is a much more common- and insidious- culprit.
Click to expand...

The aerobic workouts can produce the higher levels of endorphins but with a higher O2 influx for the body, just about the opposite of a hypoxic environment with little physical activity often encountered when flying recreationally.

Endorphins are also produced in higher quantities during the initial stages of fatigue.
 
SteveinIndy said:
There's some evidence I recall seeing in the psychology literature that it causes a narrowed focus and a tendency to underplay the seriousness of situations. They are nothing more than endogenous narcotics after all. The "damn good but calm and alert" feeling may be misleading in a situation where the ability to feel a little uneasy may save your ass.
Click to expand...

Now that's what I'm talkin' about, thank you.

Now synergistically ADD even mild to moderate hypoxia to those endorphic effects.
__________________
Flying, flight instruction, STOL Amphibion design and flight testing for the noblest of all reasons: Because It Is Cool
 
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Sorry, this is occasionally referred to as Psychobabble. What you are saying is that pilots shouldn't fly because they are human. Since a lot of accidents are the result of pre-takeoff decisions, where would that fit? Endorphins in anticipation of pleasure?

At 6,600+ hours I enjoy flying. Still. And I go out and practice. A lot. I would agree that hypoxia is a probable cause in some bad decisions. But endorphins because we are too happy? BS
 
Was I just told having fun will kill me?










Well see ya everyone I'm going to go live out my days in an underground nuclear bunker where I'll be totally 100% safe. Now THAT is a life worth living.

Sometimes risks in life are worth taking... otherwise it isn't really life.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
+ ∞

Just tell that to the OP :rolleyes:
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In his defense, as a CFI it's part of his job to make them aware so they can make informed decisions. I've flown with the OP, he's not a 'stick in the mud', he wants them to be informed and prepared so they understand what's involved and can happen so they can have fun while avoid the stupid mistakes that aren't necessarily obvious. Aviation adds a lot of components that will kill you that wouldn't even bear consideration on land. Learn a little fear and respect, then figure out how to handle it so you can fun while avoiding stupid mistakes rather than overlooking them. Dave knows how to have fun in an airplane.
 
Sorry, this is occasionally referred to as Psychobabble.
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Only by those who can't come up with a more intelligent rebuttal. Not saying that is the case here but just making the point that insulting well-established physiology is a sign that the person trying to refute it probably is more showing their lack of understanding than the shortcomings of the research.

An aviation analogy would be akin to my trying to discuss the operational or planning aspects of a low-altitude bombing mission because I don't know enough about that to contribute meaningfully.

What you are saying is that pilots shouldn't fly because they are human.
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No, we are saying that people are fallible and if you understand the ways that they are fallible and the things that make them more fallible you can take steps to rectify it. In the case of low grade hypoxia, it might be as simple as using supplemental O2 at lower altitudes than required by the FARs. In the case of other things, it might be designing the warning systems on the aircraft to increase the chances of a problem being recognized or averted. In new aircraft design, understanding these issues can lead to a better layout of the cockpit, etc.

Since a lot of accidents are the result of pre-takeoff decisions, where would that fit? Endorphins in anticipation of pleasure?
Click to expand...

A lot of crashes are the result of bad decisions all the way around. A "bad" decision before takeoff (marginal fuel) combined by a mild hypoxic event causing the pilot not to pay as full attention as he might otherwise is probably to play in more crashes than we would realize given the minimalist approach the NTSB takes to GA investigations and the tendency of pilots to simply write it off as "stupid mistakes".

That is my only point with my comments. There's no ideal of perfectly safe flying but we can do better than we do now if we simply decide to pay attention and put in a little more effort.
 
In his defense, as a CFI it's part of his job to make them aware so they can make informed decisions. I've flown with the OP, he's not a 'stick in the mud', he wants them to be informed and prepared so they understand what's involved and can happen so they can have fun while avoid the stupid mistakes that aren't necessarily obvious. Aviation adds a lot of components that will kill you that wouldn't even bear consideration on land. Learn a little fear and respect, then figure out how to handle it so you can fun while avoiding stupid mistakes rather than overlooking them. Dave knows how to have fun in an airplane
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Well said, as always, Henning. That is something a lot of students or new pilots miss out on when you start discussing "safety" or pointing out the need to be critical of "standard" techniques.
 
ebetancourt said:
Sorry, this is occasionally referred to as Psychobabble. What you are saying is that pilots shouldn't fly because they are human. Since a lot of accidents are the result of pre-takeoff decisions, where would that fit? Endorphins in anticipation of pleasure?

At 6,600+ hours I enjoy flying. Still. And I go out and practice. A lot. I would agree that hypoxia is a probable cause in some bad decisions. But endorphins because we are too happy? BS
Click to expand...

My conclusion was that synergy between the TWO is worthy of serious consideration by PICs. Because they are human is not a reason to not fly, as you concluded and stated.

Your suggestion of endorphins in anticipation of pleasure affecting pre-takeoff decisions actually has a lot of merit. Good call, and thanks for your support.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
+ ∞

Just tell that to the OP :rolleyes:
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Thanks, I know about it.

How do you think I got to be in a position to observe enough flying hours to warrant wanting to write about the subjects for other's consideration? As far as PIC goes, it's over 20 years now, much of it "serious flying fun" that few pilots get to do, and some of the time, fairly scary.
 
Henning said:
So, since I typically eat a half a pound of chocolate on a cross country along with a fair dose of caffeine, plus I often really enjoy the view at 25' AGL at 3 miles a minute, I should probably load my smokes with some heroin to balance everything out?:D
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No, Henning... NO!
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
How do you think I got to be in a position to observe enough flying hours to warrant wanting to write about the subjects for other's consideration?
Click to expand...

So we're not allowed to post unless we have a million hours? :dunno:
 
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