Driver's License Medical

I note these excerpts from the above:

"The determination as to whether a pilot has a medical condition that would make him or her unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner is the sole responsibility of the pilot. The ability to certify no known medical conditions that would prohibit the safe operation of an aircraft is a matter about which a pilot should consult his or her personal physician."

[emphasis added]​

I think it's natural for the FAA medical folks who have been quoted to believe that the list of disqualifying conditions they are responsible for is necessary for safe piloting of aircraft, so of course they're going to equate the two in their own minds, and when asked, are going to express their honest opinion. I wouldn't be inclined to consider those opinions definitive unless enforcement cases are actually being pursued, and succeeding, based on them.
 
RJM62 said:
Every SI comes with a letter stating that the airman does not meet the standards for the medical that's enclosed, but that the FAA has decided to issue it anyway because they believe that the airman can safely exercise the privileges, despite not meeting the standards for the medical. Even FAA acknowledges that there's a difference between the two. An SI, by definition, is issued to someone who doesn't qualify for the medical being issued.
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With this in mind, a pilot self certifying with a known condition that would otherwise be disqualifying for a 3rd class medical would essentially be able to issue himself the equivalent of an SI each time he flies if he believes that the condition doesn't affect his ability to safely operate the aircraft.

As an example, Mr. Sport Pilot, in the early years of his life, was given medication to help him concentrate in school (read as, help his teacher deal with his high activity level.) After a couple months, his parents decide to conscientiously object to the meds and force the teachers to teach, rather than medicate their child.

Years on, Mr. Pilot has a recollection of taking the meds and what they were for. He knows that his history of taking this med would keep him from getting his 3rd class medical without a lengthy and expensive medical process to prove to the FAA that he is not deficient. As a mathematician, a sky diver, and successful businessman, (if you might think I'm talking about myself, I'm not remotely) he also knows that he is capable and not deficient in any way in spite of not taking or not taking the meds, and is of the opinion that there is no reason to believe that he couldn't safely operate an aircraft. He therefore doesn't consult his doctor and self certifies himself to be fit for flight.

I see this as fitting perfectly within the rules as written and don't see any reason to believe that a person following this mindset would be breaking the rules or misconstruing them to fit his needs. There are any number of scenarios that come up in a pilots decision to self certify as a sport pilot. The rules as written put the burden on the pilot to self certify and consult a physician if they think they have an issue that may make them unsafe to fly.
 
QuiQuog said:
With this in mind, a pilot self certifying with a known condition that would otherwise be disqualifying for a 3rd class medical would essentially be able to issue himself the equivalent of an SI each time he flies if he believes that the condition doesn't affect his ability to safely operate the aircraft.

As an example, Mr. Sport Pilot, in the early years of his life, was given medication to help him concentrate in school (read as, help his teacher deal with his high activity level.) After a couple months, his parents decide to conscientiously object to the meds and force the teachers to teach, rather than medicate their child.

Years on, Mr. Pilot has a recollection of taking the meds and what they were for. He knows that his history of taking this med would keep him from getting his 3rd class medical without a lengthy and expensive medical process to prove to the FAA that he is not deficient. As a mathematician, a sky diver, and successful businessman, (if you might think I'm talking about myself, I'm not remotely) he also knows that he is capable and not deficient in any way in spite of not taking or not taking the meds, and is of the opinion that there is no reason to believe that he couldn't safely operate an aircraft. He therefore doesn't consult his doctor and self certifies himself to be fit for flight.

I see this as fitting perfectly within the rules as written and don't see any reason to believe that a person following this mindset would be breaking the rules or misconstruing them to fit his needs. There are any number of scenarios that come up in a pilots decision to self certify as a sport pilot. The rules as written put the burden on the pilot to self certify and consult a physician if they think they have an issue that may make them unsafe to fly.
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Of course it fits. An airman who's been issued an SI can't possibly self-certify to not having a DQing condition because the fact that they are disqualified for health reasons from holding a medical has already been established as a matter of record. So what exactly are they self-certifying to? Merely their ability to safely exercise their privileges at a particular moment in time.

As for your ADHD example, a lot of the rigmarole could be done away with simply by changing almost all of the "have you ever" questions on the 8500-8 to "have you in the past 10 years," at least for third-class applicants.

Personally, though, if I were writing the rules, all non-commercial operations would require, in addition to the driver's license, merely that the airman get an ordinary physical once a year and obtain a receipt that the examination had been performed. That would be it. No statement of fitness would be required: just a receipt that the examination had been performed. The combination of that receipt and the driver's license would be the medical. (For night privileges, passing an eye exam and a color vision test could also be required.)

My reasoning is that for reasons of both liability and concern for their patients, few ordinary physicians would ever certify to someone's fitness to fly. Neither would it be fair to expect them to do so. AME's don't even do that. They merely certify that the airman doesn't appear to have one of the disqualifying conditions as defined in the regulations, not that the airman is fit to fly. This is by design for liability reasons.

If the applicant does suffer from a DQing condition, the AME can't issue a certificate in-office no matter how strongly they believe that the applicant is able to safely exercise the privileges, except in a very limited set of cases where the FAS has authorized AMEs to do so (well-controlled diabetes controlled only with metformin, as one example). In all other cases, the airman must seek an SI; and SI's are issued "at the discretion of the Federal Air Surgeon," not the AME.

But a private, non-AME physician can perform an ordinary physical on someone and give them a receipt, so just leave it at that. It would force airmen who don't have medicals to at least visit a doctor once a year. Hopefully that visit would help them find out if they have a condition, allow them to get treatment for it if they do, and enable them to use that information to help them make informed decisions about flying.

It's my personal belief that the DL by itself is inadequate because possessing a DL proves only that the holder is neither too blind nor too senile to find their way to the DMV once every eight years or so. I don't think that's sufficient. But add on a requirement for an annual doctor visit, and I'd feel much better about it.

Rich
 
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I found this paragraph of the preamble interesting, especially considering my thread title.

The FAA believes that these minimum standards constitute only one aspect of the overall determination as to fitness to fly light-sport aircraft. The possession of a current and valid U.S. driver’s license is not in and of itself sufficient to establish the fitness of the pilot. Therefore, it must be clear that a U.S. driver’s license is not, for the purposes of this action, an FAA airman medical certificate. The FAA cautions that reference to a sport pilot “driver’s license medical” should be avoided because a current and valid U.S. driver’s license does not become a sport pilot certificate holder’s airman medical certificate.
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timwinters said:
Only trying to clarify since the opinion of my AME was the same as that of both FAA guys I spoke with today. He brought it up in conversation, I was curious as to whether his interpretation held water.

Apparently it does.
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I think it's reasonable to believe that AMEs and FAA reps are the last to interpret this rule in any way but in favor of the FAA standards, which we all know are at their worst, ridiculous and at their least way out of date.

If you have a condition that the FAA deemed 30 years ago as not safe, but because of treatment advances, your personal Doctor is confident that you have that condition under control, you should be able to fly Sport Pilot. "FAA" safe and literally safe are two totally different things.
 
timwinters said:
I found this paragraph of the preamble interesting, especially considering my thread title.
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I also found this paragraph, response interesting too !

"Commenters’ general remarks and questions about proposed medical provisions

Some commenters who expressed support for the proposal in principle and for the option of a U.S. driver’s license over an airman medical certificate raised the following issues:

Question: What “known medical conditions” would prevent a person from exercising sport pilot privileges?

Response: The FAA has not established a list of disqualifying medical conditions under §61.53. That could prevent a person from relying on a driver’s license as the sole evidence of medical qualification. If a person chooses to exercise sport pilot privileges using an airman medical certificate, the FAA’s disqualifying medical conditions set forth under part 67 apply. The ability to certify no known medical conditions becomes a matter between the pilot and his or her AME. If an individual’s most recent application for an airman medical certificate has been denied after examination by an AME, that person would not be able to use a driver’s license as evidence of medical qualification.

If an individual chooses to medically qualify for light-sport aircraft operations using a current and valid U.S. driver’s license, then the restrictions and limitations listed on the U.S. driver’s license apply, as do those imposed by judicial or administrative order for the operation of a motor vehicle. The determination as to whether a pilot has a medical condition that would make him or her unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner is the sole responsibility of the pilot. The ability to certify no known medical conditions that would prohibit the safe operation of an aircraft is a matter about which a pilot should consult his or her personal physician.

Those experiencing medical symptoms that would prevent them from safely exercising the privileges of their sport pilot certificate, or that raise a reasonable concern, however, cannot claim to have no known medical deficiencies.

The FAA acknowledges that those interested only in exercising sport pilot privileges may not seek airman medical certification or may allow their current airman medical certificate to expire. This is acceptable under this rule. Depending on the FAA’s experience under this rule, however, it could choose to establish a list of disqualifying medical conditions or even revert to requiring airman medical certification if it becomes apparent that those exercising sport pilot privileges are not exercising reasonable judgment with regard to their medical fitness to fly. "

Cheers
 
timwinters said:
Can you self certify for light sport with your driver's license if you know you have a condition that would keep you from passing a third class medical?

This question was debated at length here recently but I can't find that thread.

My AME says NO.

Many people here said yes.

Since the outside temps are in the single digits today I thought I'd call OKC and see what they say. I spoke with Tyler.

61.23.c.2.iv states:


Tyler says that it's the FAA's opinion that the requirements of a third class medical constitute the bare minimum requirements to safely operate an aircraft so, no, if you know you can't pass a third class then, no, you can't self certify. (and this is almost exactly the verbiage that my AME used)

He said this is how they interpret the present FARs as they apply to Sport Pilot. He cannot say this is how they will treat the "driver's license medical" as it applies to private pilot privileges because those rules haven't been written yet.

So, if you're being honest with yourself and the FAA, the only difference is saving about $100 every two years.

FWIW

:popcorn:

:popcorn:

:wink2:
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After some reflection on this, Tyler's, whole perspective on 3rd class medical standards applying to a self certifying sport pilot, and therefore the FAA's, just perpetuates many pilots fear of doctors. It scares pilots away from getting treatment that would make them healthier and safer. It's counter productive and self defeating. The FAA essentially encourages pilots to not seek treatment for medical issues. You're supposed to tough it out and deny the possibility that you're subject to illness, or face medical denial? They say that they're putting the decision to declare oneself fit to fly in the hands of the pilot, but out of the side of their mouth they say that if they find out anything bad, you're busted. It's hypocrisy in the bureaucracy.
 
QuiQuog said:
After some reflection on this, Tyler's, whole perspective on 3rd class medical standards applying to a self certifying sport pilot, and therefore the FAA's, just perpetuates many pilots fear of doctors. It scares pilots away from getting treatment that would make them healthier and safer. It's counter productive and self defeating. The FAA essentially encourages pilots to not seek treatment for medical issues. You're supposed to tough it out and deny the possibility that you're subject to illness, or face medical denial? They say that they're putting the decision to declare oneself fit to fly in the hands of the pilot, but out of the side of their mouth they say that if they find out anything bad, you're busted. It's hypocrisy in the bureaucracy.
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That's another reason why in addition to the DL, I favor an annual physical requirement -- but with no reporting to FAA -- for all non-commercial operations. It would have exactly the opposite effect from present policies that discourage pilots from seeking medical care.

If you want to add a weight or pax limit, or an eye test for night ops, fine. But the basic idea would stay the same: The pilot would have to get a physical once a year, but the results of the physical (and any subsequent treatment, if necessary) would stay between the pilot and the doctor.

The driver's license requirements would be an added safety measure. Most (or maybe all) states have laws requiring health care providers to report medically unfit drivers for further evaluation and possible suspension / revocation.

I really wonder why my idea doesn't seem to have been thought of by someone else. I think it's a great idea, and I'm not all that smart a guy.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
I really wonder why my idea doesn't seem to have been thought of by someone else. I think it's a great idea, and I'm not all that smart a guy.

Rich
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The real reason is that so many people make money from the status quo. Warren Silberman who is AOPA's point man on this is a director of the association that represents AME's, he is listed as a consultant to leftseat.com who make vast sums of money assisting pilots to gain medical certification. He is listed as a consultant to Harvey Watt where he provides pilot certification services and of course he is a paid consultant to AOPA. Lots of reasons not to diminish the pilot medical pool by about two thirds. Similarly Dr Bruce Chien makes his income from Pilot Medicals and has consistently been on record opposing medical reform.
If Private Pilots no longer required medicals these people and many like them would be income challenged.
Don't let anyone try to tell you otherwise. It is all about the money. True third class medical reform will never happen because there are influential people like Dr Bruce and Warren Silberman and 4000 other AME's who depend on our $$$ to keep them in business.
Stephen.
 
Bonanza said:
Similarly Dr Bruce Chien makes his income from Pilot Medicals and has consistently been on record opposing medical reform.
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That's not true. All along, he favored medical reform like the Australians have, and thought that if AOPA had proposed that, we would have it by now. Lately, he has come out in favor of the AOPA proposal.
 
Palmpilot said:
That's not true. All along, he favored medical reform like the Australians have, and thought that if AOPA had proposed that, we would have it by now. Lately, he has come out in favor of the AOPA proposal.
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^^^this^^^ and similar vicious attacks and accusations within these walls are why he is no longer here.
 
Palmpilot said:
That's not true. All along, he favored medical reform like the Australians have, and thought that if AOPA had proposed that, we would have it by now. Lately, he has come out in favor of the AOPA proposal.
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Don't refute his conspiracy theory. Then he'd have to accept that there might be something that HE actually did to get a one month timeout. It has to be Dr. Bruce's fault don't you know.

Maybe I should post the emails that I have from Dr. Bruce refusing the offer of payment for some medical records he reviewed and sent to OKC for me?

But I doubt that'd change his mind...
 
Bonanza said:
The real reason is that so many people make money from the status quo. Warren Silberman who is AOPA's point man on this is a director of the association that represents AME's, he is listed as a consultant to leftseat.com who make vast sums of money assisting pilots to gain medical certification. He is listed as a consultant to Harvey Watt where he provides pilot certification services and of course he is a paid consultant to AOPA. Lots of reasons not to diminish the pilot medical pool by about two thirds. Similarly Dr Bruce Chien makes his income from Pilot Medicals and has consistently been on record opposing medical reform.
If Private Pilots no longer required medicals these people and many like them would be income challenged.
Don't let anyone try to tell you otherwise. It is all about the money. True third class medical reform will never happen because there are influential people like Dr Bruce and Warren Silberman and 4000 other AME's who depend on our $$$ to keep them in business.
Stephen.
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Really? I just paid 85.00 for my FAA medical. Doctor's aren't getting rich off that. In fact, they probably are taking a pay cut to deal with me instead of their regular patients for that amount.
 
I must point out that Bruce has wound down his pain management practice in favor of concentrating on difficult aeromedical certifications.
 
Palmpilot said:
That's not true. All along, he favored medical reform like the Australians have, and thought that if AOPA had proposed that, we would have it by now. Lately, he has come out in favor of the AOPA proposal.
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That is also not quite true. He promoted the CDL medical in place of the third class. The CDL is pretty much as restrictive except that it doesn't have the SI path to certification. They can issue a 3 month certificate while awaiting further information but if you are denied, that is it. The new CDL sleep apnea rules are very restrictive, they are in the process of lowering the blood pressure standards below those required for a third class etc etc.
I am not saying that pilots should fly with a medical deficiency, just that we would be much worse off with a CDL than we are with the existing third class and that is what Bruce promoted, predominantly because he felt snubbed by AOPA at the time.
He was also one of the contributors to the SSRI initiative which has resulted in pilots being forced to take unsuitable and possibly outdated medication in order to get certification. Is that better than no certification? Possibly but it could have been so much better if a competent case had been presented by people who really understood the psychological and psychiatric issues involved. Bruce is an anesthesiologist and pain specialist. Kudos to him for trying to do something but he probably should have stuck to his area of expertise.
Who are the real culprits in this? Undoubtedly the FAA who have no regard for the reality of medical certification, but when they get so much help in maintaining their position from prominent members of our own community we are only going to lose.
The AOPA proposal was flawed from the beginning, they should have gone for total abolition of the third class as supported by congress. But Bruce could not even support their very restrictive and limited proposal and by doing that he lost my support.
Stephen.
 
Now, in all fairness, you asked the opinion of two people who have money at stake if the regulations are interpreted as anyone that has never been through the medical process would interpret them.

Consulting with a personal physician is unlikely to net the same result as consulting with an AME.

For example, if I didn't know any better, I doubt I'd be grounded from flying Light Sport because I have kidney stones that won't stop coming. Only the FAA is stupid enough to think that I could randomly have a stone pass during a flight that would cause me to randomly spiral out of control into the ground.

Most doctors would simply say "Hey, if you feel one coming, don't fly."

Why? Because doctors aren't stupid. The FAA is.
 
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