Dreaming of a "toy" plane...

gibbons said:
GREAT airplane! Flys beautifully and is fast. Not bad for aerobatics if you don't want to go crazy. Good choice.
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I've gotta say, the new LoPresti Fury (which is somewhat patterned after the SF260) certainly caught my eye today in Hartford.

That is, until I saw the Extra 300L parked next to it. :goofy:

New Fury: $355,000
New Extra: ??????
 
With all this talk about XC comfort as a priority, it sounds like you need an aerobatic Bonanza (certified) or an RV-7 (experimental). Personally, I find my Pitts S2C fine for XC. I make the trip from Annapolis MD to Sebring FL for the contest every spring (800+ miles and about 5 hops) and arrive fresh enough for a couple of practice sessions before dinner. Most contests I visit are well within the 250 mile range. I get 140 kts on <15 g/h w/28gal usable.

Gack, I'm choking on all this XC talk. Geez, do you want cup holders too? Bottom line is there's only one perfect airplane that's ever been built - a Pitts. Perfect manners, more performance than I'll ever fully exploit in my lifetime, and stronger and better built than just about anything flying. Russian birds are full of testosterone and round engines are cool, but I'll take a Pitts every time.
 
PittsDriver said:
Bottom line is there's only one perfect airplane that's ever been built - a Pitts. Perfect manners, more performance than I'll ever fully exploit in my lifetime, and stronger and better built than just about anything flying.
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I want a Pitts. I wanted Ken Ibold's Pitts, but my sweetie didn't want to get rid of the Citabria for a Pitts. I would settle for a ride in a Pitts now and then. My neighbor who has a grass strip has a Pitts. After reading your post, I've decided to fly over there (armed with pillows so that I can reach the rudder pedals) this weekend and beg a ride in his Pitts. See what you did? :D
 
PittsDriver said:
Gack, I'm choking on all this XC talk. Geez, do you want cup holders too? Bottom line is there's only one perfect airplane that's ever been built - a Pitts.
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Now, see, my Pitts HAD a cupholder in it. Actually, there was this round hole in the radio box from a Terra transponder that went T/U, so rather than build a new radio box I simply wedged a coozie in there. Held a water bottle firmly enough that trying to pull it out would nearly result in a snap roll!
 
PittsDriver said:
or an RV-7 (experimental).
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There ya' go, Kent. Just build a -7 or -8. You get decent G-loading so you can do a lot of 'make-you-sick' maneuvers with the power to actually complete them! It also doubles as a great XC plane. 160kts+ at 10gph w/ an IO-360. Then you can install smoke, cameras, even cupholders if you want! Plus, you get to do your own annuals as long as you have the plane.

Oh... And being the nice guy that I am, since I have 200+ hrs in a -7A, I'll go ahead and offer to do your test flight for ya'. :D Ain't I a nice guy? (And modest, too) ;)
 
Diana said:
I want a Pitts. ... See what you did? :D
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See what I'm talking about? Here's a woman that owns her own grass strip and an acro mount that she can go fly legal acro within eyesight of her back porch and even she's got Pitts envy.
 
CJones said:
There ya' go, Kent. Just build a -7 or -8.
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I've done a little positive G acro in a -7 and was very impressed with it's flying qualities. It's going to have one minor and one major problem though depending on how serious you are about acro. It, like many cruiser acro rides, is hard to slow down and by the same notion, builds speed like crazy on down lines. That makes it tougher to stay in the box. That's the minor problem. The major one is that I'm not sure you could actually get out of it while aloft. I'm definitely no expert on RV's but the one's I've seen have canopies that really aren't designed to chuck off or even open while moving. I'm of the opinion that if you're going to fly acro you should be equipped and mentally prepared to leave the plane.
 
from my brief readings on vansairforce, the sliders wont open enough in flight to bail. after flying a bunch with chris in his -7A though im convinced its a good all around airplane. cross country, local fun, or acro, it does it all fairly well. would need a quick release on the canopy though so it could be jettisoned.
 
PittsDriver said:
I've done a little positive G acro in a -7 and was very impressed with it's flying qualities. It's going to have one minor and one major problem though depending on how serious you are about acro. It, like many cruiser acro rides, is hard to slow down and by the same notion, builds speed like crazy on down lines. That makes it tougher to stay in the box. That's the minor problem. The major one is that I'm not sure you could actually get out of it while aloft. I'm definitely no expert on RV's but the one's I've seen have canopies that really aren't designed to chuck off or even open while moving. I'm of the opinion that if you're going to fly acro you should be equipped and mentally prepared to leave the plane.
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tonycondon said:
from my brief readings on vansairforce, the sliders wont open enough in flight to bail. after flying a bunch with chris in his -7A though im convinced its a good all around airplane. cross country, local fun, or acro, it does it all fairly well. would need a quick release on the canopy though so it could be jettisoned.
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I have seen (and ridden back-seat) in a couple of -8's that had 'safety disconnect' latches on the canopy. You're right, there really isn't any way to get the slider to move back in flight, but the ones I've seen actually have the rear pins attached to a cable that can be pulled in an emergency which would make the canopy fall off with ease.

As for the speed - you are VERY correct. You cannot (without some careful planning) descend AND slow down at the same time. The 3-blade CS prop does help, though. I haven't done any acro in our plane (yet), but just from flying non-CS equipped RV's, I can tell a huge difference in how much speed control is gained with the CS prop.
 
CJones said:
There ya' go, Kent. Just build a -7 or -8. You get decent G-loading so you can do a lot of 'make-you-sick' maneuvers with the power to actually complete them! It also doubles as a great XC plane. 160kts+ at 10gph w/ an IO-360. Then you can install smoke, cameras, even cupholders if you want! Plus, you get to do your own annuals as long as you have the plane.
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Man, it's a great airplane... But I'll never build an airplane myself. I don't have the patience to get it done right. :no: :(
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Man, it's a great airplane... But I'll never build an airplane myself. I don't have the patience to get it done right. :no: :(
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OK, buy one from a good builder. You still get to repair and upgrade it yourself, you just have to have an A&P/IA do your annual condition inspection.
 
Bill Jennings said:
OK, buy one from a good builder. You still get to repair and upgrade it yourself, you just have to have an A&P/IA do your annual condition inspection.
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My Pitts was experimental, and the guru who did my prebuy said it was better made than what's coming out of Afton these days. It was nice to be able to tinker with stuff without looking over my shoulder.

It puts the aircraft in a whole new light when you get to know it from the inside as well as the outside. Which, for an acro bird, is an important point, I think.
 
dude complete strangers build certified aircraft too
 
tonycondon said:
dude complete strangers build certified aircraft too
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In addition, MANY, if not MOST experimental builders are craftsmen (and women) rather than assembly line workers. A good prebuy by someone who knows the type can take virtually all of the questions out of the "workmanship" angle.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
One complete stranger scares the crap out of me. A whole bunch of complete strangers is OK. :goofy:
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I know it's stupid but my gut reaction is the same. The thing that's really scary, though, is the thought of getting in an airplane I built myself. The last (very simple) wooden model I tried to build ended up in my fireplace. :rolleyes:

I don't have to worry about that though because, knowing me, it would never be finished. :dunno:
 
Everskyward said:
I know it's stupid but my gut reaction is the same. The thing that's really scary, though, is the thought of getting in an airplane I built myself. The last (very simple) wooden model I tried to build ended up in my fireplace. :rolleyes:

I don't have to worry about that though because, knowing me, it would never be finished. :dunno:
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A lot of people assume that is the biggest fear of builders -- that their project will fail when actually asked to fly -- but for me, I was more afraid of damaging the plane as opposed to the plane damaging me. I remember during my first take-off roll in the RV, I was already thinking "Man.. I sure hope I can remember how to land this thing!"

You get a different mindset once you have meticulously placed each and every rivet and bolt in the plane. I would put something in, dad would check it, and then I would check it again. If he put something in, we would go through the same process. I have worked in a mass-production system long enough (about 2 weeks) to know that in 'assembly line' production, the workers *usually* don't take NEARLY as much pride (and accuracy) as someone that would be building the product at home.
 
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PittsDriver said:
See what I'm talking about? Here's a woman that owns her own grass strip and an acro mount that she can go fly legal acro within eyesight of her back porch and even she's got Pitts envy.
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Guilty as charged. :D What can I say. Oh, wait, here's my famous line....can I have a ride? :D
 
Steen Skybolt anyone??

I'm afflicted by the homebuild bug. It's a seasonal thing; comes and goes. I don't think I'll be able to shake it permanently until I confront the root cause.

Here's my justification -- if I buy a 6 seater, like a T210 or, heaven forbid, a Malibu Matrix, I'll need a funster. Why not build one???? (Ok, I can think of a lot of reasons)

The Skybolt seem like a fun plane. The biplane think harkens back to an earlier age. Still, there's a lot of welding involved. I did some metalworking in 8th grade. That's about it, other than making a lamp on a lathe in 7th grade. I looked a some Skybolt builder sites and said, hmmmmmm, maybe riveting an RV might make more sense....
 
flyersfan31 said:
Steen Skybolt anyone??

I'm afflicted by the homebuild bug. It's a seasonal thing; comes and goes. I don't think I'll be able to shake it permanently until I confront the root cause.

Here's my justification -- if I buy a 6 seater, like a T210 or, heaven forbid, a Malibu Matrix, I'll need a funster. Why not build one???? (Ok, I can think of a lot of reasons)

The Skybolt seem like a fun plane. The biplane think harkens back to an earlier age. Still, there's a lot of welding involved. I did some metalworking in 8th grade. That's about it, other than making a lamp on a lathe in 7th grade. I looked a some Skybolt builder sites and said, hmmmmmm, maybe riveting an RV might make more sense....
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IMHO, RV's are great projects for first-time builders. With their CNC machining nowadays, you can almost take it out of the box/crate and rivet it together, although drilling and dimpling is necessary. They don't pre-stamp ALL the wholes, but they give you enough that you will know if you have the pieces lined up correctly. You can follow the plans to the 't' and get a great flying/performing airplane or you can customize it enough to keep you busy for years.

I guess I'm a little biased, though.. RV-7A was our first build experience. We loved it so much, we're working on a -10 now. :)
 
I'd stay away from the RV planes for any type of aerobatics. They are not designed for that flight envelope. sure they can do the lighter manuvers, especially in the Harmon Rocket guise (more hosspower) but they do pick up speed very fast on the downhill and you can pull the wings off them if you aren't extremley carefull.
 
So, what would your suggestions be for a buildable acro plane? As I mentioned, the Steen Skybolt looks pretty good, but welding seems pretty demanding. Not the process itself, but the need for quality welds every time. Isn't that asking a bit much from, presumably, an inexperienced welder?
 
flyersfan31 said:
So, what would your suggestions be for a buildable acro plane? As I mentioned, the Steen Skybolt looks pretty good, but welding seems pretty demanding. Not the process itself, but the need for quality welds every time. Isn't that asking a bit much from, presumably, an inexperienced welder?
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Tac it together, then have a certified welder come buy and finish it up. Considering how much construction goes into a biplane, you don't have to worry about violating any 51% rule I would think.

I think Steen offers a fully welded fuselage as well, if you want to drop the coin.
 
flyersfan31 said:
So, what would your suggestions be for a buildable acro plane?
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I guess it depends on what you'd like to spend and what you intend to do with it? The MX2 is an experimental you can build yourself or have them build it. If you have it built you're looking just north of $300K. They're used at Unlimited level competition and in the Red Bull air race - pretty strong stuff.

I'm no expert on RV accidents but I know people that build them professionally and the anecdotal information is that they're very strong and reliable. Pulling the wings off wouldn't by near the top of my worries about flying acro in those intended for such. But aircraft do break and so I'd consider a canopy I can open in flight and the ability to get out non-starter criteria for acro.

There's also some question in the minds of RV drivers I know about spin recovery manners. I've done a one turn spin in an RV-7 and it was fine but I've heard that fully developed spins can take a few turns to recover from. My concern here is that I've talked to some pretty experienced RV drivers that just don't know how well mannered they are in various spin types. So it's reasonable to treat spin recovery like a test pilot. Hmmm, let's see - test pilot, experimental aircraft, hard/maybe impossible to exit the plane...

Depending on your acro inclinations, why not build a plane that's got tons of acro hours and well understood manners - a Pitts? Specifically, a model 12? Big round motor bi-plane, lots of noise, sexy looks, amazing performance, and can be finished for probably not much more than half what an MX2 costs.

Wes
 
PittsDriver said:
I guess it depends on what you'd like to spend and what you intend to do with it? The MX2 is an experimental you can build yourself or have them build it. If you have it built you're looking just north of $300K. They're used at Unlimited level competition and in the Red Bull air race - pretty strong stuff.

I'm no expert on RV accidents but I know people that build them professionally and the anecdotal information is that they're very strong and reliable. Pulling the wings off wouldn't by near the top of my worries about flying acro in those intended for such. But aircraft do break and so I'd consider a canopy I can open in flight and the ability to get out non-starter criteria for acro.

There's also some question in the minds of RV drivers I know about spin recovery manners. I've done a one turn spin in an RV-7 and it was fine but I've heard that fully developed spins can take a few turns to recover from. My concern here is that I've talked to some pretty experienced RV drivers that just don't know how well mannered they are in various spin types. So it's reasonable to treat spin recovery like a test pilot. Hmmm, let's see - test pilot, experimental aircraft, hard/maybe impossible to exit the plane...

Depending on your acro inclinations, why not build a plane that's got tons of acro hours and well understood manners - a Pitts? Specifically, a model 12? Big round motor bi-plane, lots of noise, sexy looks, amazing performance, and can be finished for probably not much more than half what an MX2 costs.

Wes
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So what's the difference between the Model 12 that they guys in Florida are selling, and the Model 14 that Steen has on their website??
 
PittsDriver said:
There's also some question in the minds of RV drivers I know about spin recovery manners. I've done a one turn spin in an RV-7 and it was fine but I've heard that fully developed spins can take a few turns to recover from. My concern here is that I've talked to some pretty experienced RV drivers that just don't know how well mannered they are in various spin types. So it's reasonable to treat spin recovery like a test pilot. Hmmm, let's see - test pilot, experimental aircraft, hard/maybe impossible to exit the plane...
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thats interesting as a recent thread on vansairforce about spinning the RV series contained no info describing the spin characteristics as ill mannered. lots and lots of experienced RV pilots over there too.
 
tonycondon said:
thats interesting as a recent thread on vansairforce about spinning the RV series contained no info describing the spin characteristics as ill mannered. lots and lots of experienced RV pilots over there too.
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I didn't mean to imply that the aircraft is ill mannered at all. Just that the experienced pilots I know seem reticent to let a spin get fully developed and have it anecdotally that there's potentially some issue. That could just be because there's little spin experience amongst RV drivers in general? Or maybe just the one's I know?

They're great aircraft but wouldn't be on my list for anything like a competitive acro mount for the reasons I've previously stated.
 
PittsDriver said:
I didn't mean to imply that the aircraft is ill mannered at all. Just that the experienced pilots I know seem reticent to let a spin get fully developed and have it anecdotally that there's potentially some issue. That could just be because there's little spin experience amongst RV drivers in general? Or maybe just the one's I know?

They're great aircraft but wouldn't be on my list for anything like a competitive acro mount for the reasons I've previously stated.
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The 'mediocre' spin recovery characteristics you speak of may be true for the pre-7/A series. The -6 has a smaller rudder than the newer lines. In fact, there may be a few -7s out there with small rudders. While we were completing the wings on 7DL, Van's shipped us a new rudder kit (free of charge) b/c Van decided that he didn't like the spin recovery provided by the smaller version. When put side-by-side, the new rudder gained about two inches vertically and 2-3 inches horizontally for considerably more surface area.

IM001183.JPG


I haven't spun any of Van's models, so I'm just speculating here.
 
CJones said:
The 'mediocre' spin recovery characteristics you speak of ...
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I just want to clarify again that I'm not saying that I know anything at all bad, mediocre, or otherwise about the spin characteristics of any RV aircraft. If anything, there just seems to be a general lack of experience in spinning them - unlike something like a Pitts, Decathlon, Extra, etc in which the spin characteristics are thoroughly understood and universally recognized as well mannered. I can hop in my Pitts and know that I'm not placing myself in the position of a test pilot, i.e. exploring dark areas of the performance envelope. There just aren't any. I know that when I accelerate a spin or accidentally leave some power on in an upset or fall out a maneuver, it's something that's been done many thousands of times at all kinds of CGs by literally hundreds of pilots of all skill levels. There's a piece of mind there that's worth a lot to me.

And this isn't a experimental bashing vs. certified thing. There are experiment aircraft in which the acro manners are much better understood than some certified aircraft. What this is really about is that if you're going to fly acro, choosing a plane that has very well understood manners and accessibility to experienced instruction are, more than any other thing you have control over, going to determine how safely you can fly.

Y'all be safe.
 
PittsDriver said:
I just want to clarify again that I'm not saying that I know anything at all bad, mediocre, or otherwise about the spin characteristics of any RV aircraft. If anything, there just seems to be a general lack of experience in spinning them - unlike something like a Pitts, Decathlon, Extra, etc in which the spin characteristics are thoroughly understood and universally recognized as well mannered. I can hop in my Pitts and know that I'm not placing myself in the position of a test pilot, i.e. exploring dark areas of the performance envelope. There just aren't any. I know that when I accelerate a spin or accidentally leave some power on in an upset or fall out a maneuver, it's something that's been done many thousands of times at all kinds of CGs by literally hundreds of pilots of all skill levels. There's a piece of mind there that's worth a lot to me.

And this isn't a experimental bashing vs. certified thing. There are experiment aircraft in which the acro manners are much better understood than some certified aircraft. What this is really about is that if you're going to fly acro, choosing a plane that has very well understood manners and accessibility to experienced instruction are, more than any other thing you have control over, going to determine how safely you can fly.

Y'all be safe.
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No problem. I wasn't getting defensive or anything -- as I said, I have zero RV spin experience -- the only spin experience I have is in a 152 during my PPL training. :)

I can see your point about trusting the 'expected' spin characteristics of an airplane that is actually designed to perform similar maneuvers easily. I was just presenting info that the RV designer had spent a little extra time trying to make the RV more 'predictable' in its spin characteristics as well and actually modified the design to achieve it. We'll see how it compares with more 'acro' designed a/c as more flight hours are put into the model and more data can be gathered.

Oh.. And by the way.. Thanks for sharing as someone that CAN and DOES perform the type of flying they are actually talking about -- not just someone sitting on the sidelines and has 'read a book' and considers himself to be an expert. ;)
 
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If you're still interested, I know where a rare deal just came on the market for a ~430 hour S2C that's probably priced $20K or so under the market value. PM me for details.
 
PittsDriver said:
If you're still interested, I know where a rare deal just came on the market for a ~430 hour S2C that's probably priced $20K or so under the market value. PM me for details.
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I probably can't afford half market value on a Pitts that new. :(

This is just "someday dreaming" so far... For now I'm still deciding whether to buy myself a $50,000 or so airplane for training purposes (such as an Apache for multi, or a Comanche 180 for comm/CFI) or sink that down payment into a 1/4 share of a 160hp Super Cub with floats, bushwheels, and a huge borer prop. Decisions, decisions... :dunno:

PM me the details anyway... Maybe it's not as out of reach as I think.
 
Hey what's the Yak 52TW like? I'm pedallin' a Yak 52 at the mo, but would love to upgrade to a TW, although I hear the TD is the definitive model, cheaper, more conventional tailwheel....
in response to this thread, my dream machine is definately an Su 26.. but if I remain on earth for just a moment, next year, I'll be after a tail draggin' 52, OR a Yak 50. :D

My first post here btw, bit of an outsider but looks like a great forum to discuss akro.

cheers

NZflyer

PS good luck to the US Advanced team at AWAC and to anyone flying a round engine.
 
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NZflyer said:
Hey what's the Yak 52TW like? I'm pedallin' a Yak 52 at the mo, but would love to upgrade to a TW, although I hear the TD is the definitive model, cheaper, more conventional tailwheel....
in response to this thread, my dream machine is definately an Su 26.. but if I remain on earth for just a moment, next year, I'll be after a tail draggin' 52, OR a Yak 50. :D

My first post here btw, bit of an outsider but looks like a great forum to discuss akro.

cheers

NZflyer

PS good luck to the US Advanced team at AWAC and to anyone flying a round engine.
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Welcome aboard! We have a number of people here who have either lived in or visited NZ! Leslie and I were down there a couple of years ago and got our NZ Pilot Certificates and did some flying around the South Island. We have very little experience with acro, though!
 
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