Dream To Be A Airline Pilot

He specifically asked about airline jobs. He may be making more or less after a few years, depending on the health of his carrier, the health of the industry and the economy in general. A friend who was laid off at Continental Express got a call-back almost six years later.

MDeitch1976 said:
What if the OP decides to jump in for that $20K a year job, and sticks around for 10 years or more, or even 20 years. He is not still going to be making $20K/yr.

There is a lot of talk as to why he shouldn't try for it. How about some more positive side to it all, and some of the paths he could follow. Maybe even some other types of Pilot alternatives. There are definitely several people on the forum who are paid to fly, and it would be hear more about those journeys. Good and the bad.
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James_Dean said:
Ending up $100k+ in debt to compete for a $20k/yr job where you're on the road 130 nights a year?
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Right. I don't think it's a good idea for people to suggest to a young person who is already $53,000 in the hole that they incur even more debt for the chance to make less than half (?) of what they currently make a couple years or more down the road. I think the best thing for the OP to do is to use the toe-in-the-water approach by keeping the engineering job and flying on the side, gradually getting more ratings. Even if it takes five years the OP will only be 30, which is still young enough to make a career change if that's what he or she wants to do.

James_Dean said:
I hear the Super 8 at the Boise airport is really nice.

Seriously - I've had two CFI's leave for that life and both are back flying charter and instructing.
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I've flown a lot of charter but not airline, although I know many airline pilots, some who have left the airlines to fly charter either voluntarily or involuntarily because of furlough. In general, I would say that flying charter provides much more variety but the flip side is that it's not nearly as structured. If you want to know where you are going every day next month and to be able plan your life around it then airlines are for you. If don't want to get that call asking you to be at the airport ASAP and on your way to someplace you've never been before and may not have even heard of then maybe you shouldn't do charter.

As far as pay goes, I would say a mid-career airline pilot will make more than a mid-career charter pilot with the big caveat that the airline pilot hasn't lost his or her job and is starting over at the bottom at a new airline. It's easier to make a parallel or upward move when there is no seniority system.
 
Here is my story. I was 19 when I had my CFII, and like you I always wanted to be an airline pilot. I did not have a college degree and was struggling with my career options. A few months after getting my CFII, I dislocated my shoulder and was out for six months. During this time, I did some major soul searching.

Here are the questions that I asked myself. What is it about flying that I loved? Why did I want to fly? After careful review, I realized that I was not so keen on the commercial pilot lifestyle or the machines they fly. I did not care for all of the glass cockpits and sitting there while the computers flew the plane. I also realized that the best flight that I ever had was in a Piper Cub for 30min, and I did not have fly for living to enjoy the pleasure of what flying had to offer.

My decision was made I would go to school get a college degree and make enough money so that I could fly privately. I am now almost 42 years of age and work for large corporation doing something that like so and so. I am finally making a little bit more money that I can return back to power flying. I also spend some time flying sail planes (the next best thing to flying a Cub).

So, think hard and long on why you want to fly and what is about flying that you really enjoy. Take some lessons and get your private pilot and continue your research. Financially, you will be better off staying with engineering and look into renting or owning your own plane sometime down the road.

Whatever you do, don’t give-up on your dream of becoming a pilot. You will never regret it. Cheers.
 
There is nothing wrong with heading towards an airline job if thats what you want. Just make sure you look before you leap and have a pretty good idea you're going to be happy with your choice.

If you decide to go for it I have only one piece of advice......

Be COMPLETELY debt free when you take your first job as a commercial pilot. You'll be much happier. Your first 10 years or so in the industry will require traveling light and the ability to live off of wages that qualify you for welfare in many cases. Not a place to be with a big pile of debt. Many of the pilots I worked with that had the debt load from school were still living with parents and getting monetary support to pay their bills during the early parts of their career because they couldn't earn enough to be self sufficient.

The career is not all bad. I have been paying my bills for 15 years now as a pilot. Don't regret it one bit and have enjoyed most of it. Just don't go into debt to get here. That you will regret in my opinion.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Engineer for work, fly for fun. How you feel about your engineering job is how you will feel about a flying job once the shine wears off(doesn't take long)
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Well after 18 years it's still WAY shinier than any other job I can think of ! Now I don't know if I would say that if I were just doing domestic flying. Getting to bounce around the world to places I had only seen pictures of before while getting 18 to 20 days off a month to play around in my little airplane sure seems like a good life to me.

My advice to this OP would be to hurry up and get Uncle Sam to pay for his training before he turns 27 ! Or.... if his credit is still good buy a used sub 30k Cherokee, Cessna, Grumman - whatever on a 15 to 20 year note. The payment will be lower than most car payments. Get all the ratings you can in it then trade up for a "decent" (bit of a moving target, I know) Apache or Travel Air and INSTRUCT out of it till you're hired. Bingo - just about the most debt free way I can think of and it makes you the boss instead of the worker-bee.
 
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I am 36 years old now. Still on the cusp of obtaining my license. What sort of reality is there of setting a goal of 42 years old to become a part time instructor? Something to dabble in, and maybe when, if ever I am able to retire, work as a flight instructor then?
 
jspilot said:
My only point was, college is a road to debt nowadays long before many people see financial gain from the choice. I just wish the choice to go to college did not seemingly have such crippling financial ramifications for many who choose to go.
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I think some of the problem is the cultural expectation that you must immediately go from high school to college with very little life seasoning and not a whole lot of maturity.

I believe now that kids should take 2-3 years to enter the workforce and live as adults at what ever job they can obtain that provides them a decent living wage and some ability to save for their first 2 years. Then work during through these years earning enough to pay for the last 2-2.5 years.

For the kids, entering into the post college workforce with no student loan debt is a huge step toward achieving financial independence at a much earlier age. Add in the 3 years of maturity and wisdom and their selection of what to study and eventual career would be much better. Not to mention they will have learned not to squander that first 4 years of larger paychecks away (like I did).

For Mom and Dad, it might cost them less in the long run. Agree to only pay the last 2 years of college, maybe hold some back for graduate if that makes sense.

The above is why I think highly of kids who choose military service for at least one if not two terms. They frequently return to civilian life a much better and wiser person, and already have a better idea of where they want to go in life.
 
Your plan sounds reasonable here, assuming anybody is still interested in learning to fly in 2018.

MDeitch1976 said:
I am 36 years old now. Still on the cusp of obtaining my license. What sort of reality is there of setting a goal of 42 years old to become a part time instructor? Something to dabble in, and maybe when, if ever I am able to retire, work as a flight instructor then?
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Here's an idea. Try drawing up a tablet of pros and cons. Compare them. If they involve finances put dollar amounts on the paper too. There are a lot of working professionals that learn to fly, no matter which route you take it's still one day at a time and that won't ever change.
 
Pros: Shiny jets, Travel like a Rockstar, tons of hot stewardess babes, only work a couple of days a month.
Cons: Having to flight instruct for a year first.
There you go. Being a pilot is ego driven, so forget about reality, full speed ahead.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Pros: Shiny jets, Travel like a Rockstar, tons of hot stewardess babes, only work a couple of days a month.
Cons: Having to flight instruct for a year first.
There you go. Being a pilot is ego driven, so forget about reality, full speed ahead.
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Yeah flight instructing is a real drag. Bring me the babes!

:rolleyes:
 
Of the people who say "I want to be an airline pilot" what percentage have even the foggiest notion of the issues, lifestyle, comp & benefits, cost of training, length of "dues paying time" uncertainties, work rules, union complexities, restricted opporunities to change jobs within the industry, etc?

I don't think our country's education system, with its lack of intern/apprenticeship, is well-suited to provide students with an opportunity to learn and observe the inner-workings of many career fields. Of all the voids, an understanding of various pilot jobs and other aviation opportunities is near the top of the list.
 
AggieMike88 said:
I think some of the problem is the cultural expectation that you must immediately go from high school to college with very little life seasoning and not a whole lot of maturity.

I believe now that kids should take 2-3 years to enter the workforce and live as adults at what ever job they can obtain that provides them a decent living wage and some ability to save for their first 2 years. Then work during through these years earning enough to pay for the last 2-2.5 years.

For the kids, entering into the post college workforce with no student loan debt is a huge step toward achieving financial independence at a much earlier age. Add in the 3 years of maturity and wisdom and their selection of what to study and eventual career would be much better. Not to mention they will have learned not to squander that first 4 years of larger paychecks away (like I did).

For Mom and Dad, it might cost them less in the long run. Agree to only pay the last 2 years of college, maybe hold some back for graduate if that makes sense.

The above is why I think highly of kids who choose military service for at least one if not two terms. They frequently return to civilian life a much better and wiser person, and already have a better idea of where they want to go in life.
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BINGO ! Very well said indeed. Kids today seem to take longer to mature. With the state of higher education being what it is today I see very little reason for most kids to rush into it. The exceptions being those kids that absolutely KNOW they want to be a Physician or a Lawyer (like we really need anymore of them :rolleyes:) or an Engineer AND have the high school grades and aptitude to back it up. For all the rest I would REALLY recommend the military or a technical school where you come out with a REAL job. I tend to put a lot more stock into someone who can re-wire a mother board or TIG weld than someone who got an A on their French Literature exam.
 
I wish I had spent some time thinking after high school. I only had one thing on my mind in high school and at that age...
 
That sounds good but is difficult to execute. Finding jobs is difficult for anyone, but other than food service and a few others those available to HS grads with no skills or experience are limited. Having watched the travails of grandkids seeking a similar path, I now understand the current marketplace a bit better than before.

I think the best way to cut college expense is to eliminate the room, board and other expenses necessary at the traditional places. Picking up a couple years of pre-req classes at the JUCO or local college while living at home and working part-time, even if slinging, puts a kid further ahead and with less cost exposure than popping for all four years at the U.

AggieMike88 said:
I think some of the problem is the cultural expectation that you must immediately go from high school to college with very little life seasoning and not a whole lot of maturity.

I believe now that kids should take 2-3 years to enter the workforce and live as adults at what ever job they can obtain that provides them a decent living wage and some ability to save for their first 2 years. Then work during through these years earning enough to pay for the last 2-2.5 years.

For the kids, entering into the post college workforce with no student loan debt is a huge step toward achieving financial independence at a much earlier age. Add in the 3 years of maturity and wisdom and their selection of what to study and eventual career would be much better. Not to mention they will have learned not to squander that first 4 years of larger paychecks away (like I did).

For Mom and Dad, it might cost them less in the long run. Agree to only pay the last 2 years of college, maybe hold some back for graduate if that makes sense.

The above is why I think highly of kids who choose military service for at least one if not two terms. They frequently return to civilian life a much better and wiser person, and already have a better idea of where they want to go in life.
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ClimbnSink said:
Pros: Shiny jets, Travel like a Rockstar, tons of hot stewardess babes, only work a couple of days a month.
Cons: Having to flight instruct for a year first.
There you go. Being a pilot is ego driven, so forget about reality, full speed ahead.
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Well, my schedule next month has me gone from home for four days total. 4 days away from the wife and kids in 5 star hotels, flying a really nice plane and making 5 figures for the month. One of those days is Thanksgiving, but I and my family will sacrifice one holiday to be home with the children as a family for the other 26.

Flight attendants are more like jurassic park, though. :yes:


Everyone focuses on that $20k/yr FO position at a regional. There is an airline career beyond that. If one makes it to the top, it really is a great job. Can be a rocky career getting there, however. Starting the game 50 Gs in the hole isn't a good way to begin the journey. It can be done, though. Just a matter of what he wants to sacrifice and if the goal is worth it to him. Only the OP can make that choice.
 
Rex Kramer said:
Flight attendants are more like jurassic park, though. :yes:
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:lol:

And thank you for coming on and telling us a success story. I personally get really tired of people moaning and complaining about how much it sucks to have a flying career. There is no excuse to be unhappy in your job. If you don't like it, change it! Nobody says you have to do the same thing your whole life. For the OP, I would say try to chase your dream. If it doesn't pan out, do something else. You can still fly for fun even if you don't do it for a career.
 
As the lyrics to Jamie Johnson's popular country song attest:

"It's lonely at the top, but it's a ***** at the bottom."

Rex Kramer said:
Well, my schedule next month has me gone from home for four days total. 4 days away from the wife and kids in 5 star hotels, flying a really nice plane and making 5 figures for the month. One of those days is Thanksgiving, but I and my family will sacrifice one holiday to be home with the children as a family for the other 26.

Flight attendants are more like jurassic park, though. :yes:


Everyone focuses on that $20k/yr FO position at a regional. There is an airline career beyond that. If one makes it to the top, it really is a great job. Can be a rocky career getting there, however. Starting the game 50 Gs in the hole isn't a good way to begin the journey. It can be done, though. Just a matter of what he wants to sacrifice and if the goal is worth it to him. Only the OP can make that choice.
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wabower said:
How do you view the career opportunity for a young guy who wants to start now? Is the time required to "pay your dues" and get a decent seat with a major as long as it seems from the outside?
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Weeelllll...

For the last 10 years, it has been an incredibly long road to an airline job. With the events of 9/11 and the economic malaise there just hasn't been any movement. Not to mention the fact that the retirement age was raised from 60 to 65. But, starting December 14, 2012, the retirements start up again and pretty soon, retirements will reach, oh I don't know, several thousand a year? For someone well positioned right now, the prospects look pretty good.

However, I heard a rumor this week, (which, frankly I don't believe) that it is a done deal that the retirement age will be raised again to 67.

It all depends.

I have heard rumors of the impending pilot shortage ever since I started flying 30 years ago. With the exception of a very brief time in the early 2000's, it just never happened. But, if the rumors will ever come true, it seems that the next few years will tell.

Timing is everything in this industry, and unfortunately, no one individual can control that. Its really kind of a crap shoot.
 
I can guarantee one way you will not become an airline pilot "making the big bucks".



Don't try.
 
Rex Kramer said:
I can guarantee one way you will not become an airline pilot "making the big bucks".



Don't try.
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While this it true.

Greg Bockelman said:
Timing is everything in this industry, and unfortunately, no one individual can control that. Its really kind of a crap shoot.
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This is also true.

I think about the people who were my peers back in the late 1990s who were headed for the airlines and thought I should head that way too. That wasn't really what I wanted to do so I went in another direction. I watched many of them get their dream job then get furloughed. In some cases twice. Most have not made it back yet and if they did they are still pretty junior. Others either got out of the industry or got into another segment of it.
 
Rex Kramer said:
Everyone focuses on that $20k/yr FO position at a regional. There is an airline career beyond that.
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Not for everyone, there isn't. That's not inconsequential. That is the very crux of the issue, in fact. I'm willing to wager there's more failed starts at an airline career than people in your position, and I further suggest the only difference between them and you is TIMING. That's also not inconsequential.

Rex Kramer said:
If one makes it to the top, it really is a great job. Can be a rocky career getting there, however.
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Understatement of the week.

Rex Kramer said:
Starting the game 50 Gs in the hole isn't a good way to begin the journey. It can be done, though. Just a matter of what he wants to sacrifice and if the goal is worth it to him. Only the OP can make that choice.
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Indeed. The advice of pursuing life with abandon is cool as long as the cost of shooting at the target doesn't preculde you from recovering. IMO a failed airline start via debt and/or 10+ years of hunting it, with no industry to go back to, is unrecoverable, if the goal was to attain a material lifestyle equivalent to the income expected from a senior airline career wage scale, during the time frame in a person's life where raising children and being physically active is likely to be the norm (30-60). If that cost precludes you from recovering, then the advice of " just go for it" is disingenuous.

Which is why I suggest only people with a measure of insulation (military aviators, people with a retirement check, trust fund babies, career changers with another source of income, rich-by-marriage) attempt a career in it. The rest are setting themselves up for martyrdom under the guise of optimism bias (can't happen to ME, won't happen to ME, I'm different, I'll beat the odds, I have greater staying power...et al ad nauseam). Life ain't fair, but it is riddled with choices. Choice is power indeed. Choose wisely.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Not for everyone, there isn't. That's not inconsequential. That is the very crux of the issue, in fact. I'm willing to wager there's more failed starts at an airline career than people in your position, and I further suggest the only difference between them and you is TIMING. That's also not inconsequential.



Understatement of the week.



Indeed. The advice of pursuing life with abandon is cool as long as the cost of shooting at the target doesn't preculde you from recovering. IMO a failed airline start via debt and/or 10+ years of hunting it, with no industry to go back to, is unrecoverable, if the goal was to attain a material lifestyle equivalent to the income expected from a senior airline career wage scale, during the time frame in a person's life where raising children and being physically active is likely to be the norm (30-60). If that cost precludes you from recovering, then the advice of " just go for it" is disingenuous.

Which is why I suggest only people with a measure of insulation (military aviators, people with a retirement check, trust fund babies, career changers with another source of income, rich-by-marriage) attempt a career in it. The rest are setting themselves up for martyrdom under the guise of optimism bias (can't happen to ME, won't happen to ME, I'm different, I'll beat the odds, I have greater staying power...et al ad nauseam). Life ain't fair, but it is riddled with choices. Choice is power indeed. Choose wisely.
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I've never said it would be easy or that everyone will "make it". I've said either here, or perhaps on the red board, that not everyone that picks up a baseball bat will play for the Yankees and not everyone that starts med school is going to be a 500g/yr neurosurgeon. This career is no different. It is VERY volatile, no doubt about it.

The vast majority of people I knew at my regional are doing pretty well flying, even though my regional went under. Almost everyone in my new hire class (with the exception of one) is at a major airline or similar paying/quality of life job.

It can be done. It's not guaranteed. Nothing in life is.
 
Earlier in the thread, Bock said an airline career is a crap-shoot. Did anybody reading that comment reflect on the fact that crap-shoots are never even-odds bets and in fact the odds of winning are always stacked in favor of the house and against the player?

My perception is that those who realistically characterize the job choice as carrying a high risk are thought of as naysayers or dream-killers when posting such sentiments on an aviation-based forum. In any other career-counseling environment, the risks would be put on the table without the express or imputed reaction that doing so is bad-mouthing an aspirant's long-term dreams and fly-or-die mentality.
 
wabower said:
Earlier in the thread, Bock said an airline career is a crap-shoot. Did anybody reading that comment reflect on the fact that crap-shoots are never even-odds bets and in fact the odds of winning are always stacked in favor of the house and against the player?

My perception is that those who realistically characterize the job choice as carrying a high risk are thought of as naysayers or dream-killers when posting such sentiments on an aviation-based forum. In any other career-counseling environment, the risks would be put on the table without the express or imputed reaction that doing so is bad-mouthing an aspirant's long-term dreams and fly-or-die mentality.
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Beyond Aviation, people take risks with college degrees, starting their own business, an invention, acting, music, extreme sports, living without insurance....etc.. Life is a big game of risk. Some never try, some quit to easy, some just follow the pack, and some take risks. I would rather look back at my life knowing I tried and failed, as opposed to looking back and knowing I never tried.
 
To each his own. I'd be comfortable with that assessment only after understanding your risk-assessment process and weighting.

MDeitch1976 said:
Beyond Aviation, people take risks with college degrees, starting their own business, an invention, acting, music, extreme sports, living without insurance....etc.. Life is a big game of risk. Some never try, some quit to easy, some just follow the pack, and some take risks. I would rather look back at my life knowing I tried and failed, as opposed to looking back and knowing I never tried.
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wabower said:
To each his own. I'd be comfortable with that assessment only after understanding your risk-assessment process and weighting.
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Been through it, laid off, found a new job with less income.
I am back to school and back in pursuit of a college degree at 36 years old. Will either try to move up the chain at my current employer or maybe pursue something else. The only thing set in stone right now is to obtain my Private Pilots License. When I was out of high school, and with a couple years of college, I tried to go to ComAir down in Florida at the time. I just plainly could not afford it. During the years between then and now, I wish I had known then what I know now about GA. I may have had my pilots license by now, maybe my IFR, who knows. Maybe I would be flying a banner up and down the beach in the day, and working as a bar back at night living it up at the beach. Who knows? I know one thing, I can not get those years back. I do regret my ignorance, or lack of knowledge about the options.
 
Because not everyone succeeds is not an excuse for no one to try.
 
wabower said:
I think the best way to cut college expense is to eliminate the room, board and other expenses necessary at the traditional places. Picking up a couple years of pre-req classes at the JUCO or local college while living at home and working part-time, even if slinging, puts a kid further ahead and with less cost exposure than popping for all four years at the U.
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Concur with this. Plus it has the benefit of keeping the GPA at a higher level. I did well in my upper level courses, but not so much in my earlier ones (mostly adjusting to different learning/testing styles and floundering about on what major to do). As such, my GPA never quite recovered.

At least now, I get to prove one essential Aggie truism about what you call an Aggie 20 years after graduation.... BOSS! :yes: :D :yes:
 
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It's not an excuse, it's a valid reason based on the calculated odds of success rather than a knee-jerk decision based on some pie-in-the-sky "what I always wanted to do" logic which in turn is based on scant knowledge of what the job entails.

The time off argument that airline guys throw around as a big deal is bogus as well. Most employees get 104 weekend days off plus 7-9 holidays plus another 5-7 sick and personal and another 10 vacation. Thats 10 days/month plus the 12-15 hours per work day that they are off duty (but home with the family) when their work-day is over. Guys who own their own business often find a month or two when they may not go to the office at all, or conduct business from a vacation home in a nice place. I did.

The back-loaded comp schedules that are inherent in part 121 work should be carefully scrutinized by anyone considering such a career, to determine the equivalent value of the earnings stream compared to other careers. If two guys earn 5-figures monthly pay at a certain point in their careers, the follow-up question should be "starting when?" For me, it was age 35.

The next question is "until when?" at which point the paycheck stops whether or not the guy is ready or willing to lose the big comp package.

Throw in the inherent risk of bankruptcy, merger and loss of pension benefits and healthcare that have been a part of the 121 landscape for at least 50 years,
and the picture is even worse.

Of the half-dozen guys that I knew who worked for American, TWA and Braniff out of college or air force during the early 60's when advancement was easy, none lasted more than 20 years including the guy who advanced from left-seat 172 to left-seat 707 in less than five years.

American just announced that they will recall the 650 pilots still on furlough. How long has it been since any of those guys have drawn a payroll check?


Rex Kramer said:
Because not everyone succeeds is not an excuse for no one to try.
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I like being an airline pilot, best decision I ever made (at around 5)
 
If anyone who posts on here knows me this my give me away, but it's a story I like to say. One evening last November I was ironing a couple of shirts because I was going on reserve the next day. I ironed two shirts... Mid-November.


I used the second shirt in early March.



I mentioned before I have 4 days away from home in November and that's a full schedule. I'm on reserve this month and haven't "worked" yet.

I love flying airplanes, but I love being home with the family more. A job that balances that out is great. I have found that job. Not everyone does, but I did. They are out there.



I know there are **** jobs in aviation and not everyone makes it. But SOMEONE does make it. If you don't try you will NOT be the one that does make it.

Your choice.
 
I've got a buddy who dropped out of IT a number of years ago, chased the aviation dream, and stayed far away from the airlines.

To spare his identity, he targeted a charter outfit in warm sunny beach climates with lots of tiny non-pressurized sightseeing type aircraft used, busted his butt, became their Safety Officer after becoming a pilot for them, and flies around in shorts and a t-shirt every day and lives near the beach.

He's as happy as a clam.

So yeah, tailor the job to you, don't get talked into being someone you don't want to be.

And have an out... He did. He could have easily jumped back into IT for triple his flying salary. He didn't want to. And still doesn't. :)
 
I think having the backup plan is key. That way if you really don't make it anywhere in aviation, you can always go to Plan B.

Like right now, I do well at my current job and have done well at past jobs. I don't burn bridges and I stay in touch with old employers. This way, I might be able to go back to working for them if things go awry.
 
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