DPE rating criteria

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DPEteam

Filing Flight Plan
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DPEteam
Hi everyone,

Some time ago we asked you to share experiences with DPEs — thanks to everyone who joined the discussion!

We’re now rebuilding the DPE community on Discord. One of the sections we’re working on is a DPE rating / experience thread to help pilots choose examiners more confidently.

So we’d like to ask again:

What are your main criteria when choosing a DPE?
What do you personally pay attention to first?

And another question:

What kind of review template would actually be useful for pilots?
What information should a DPE review include to make it helpful?

Really appreciate any thoughts or ideas from you!
 
Availability. There have been remarkably long wait times to get a checkride, and during that time, the applicant proficiency declines, or they are forced to spend more money to keep up to speed.

The DPEs in this area are very well known, and applicants are asked to write a review of the checkride while it is still fresh in their mind. These reviews are kept in a binder at the flight school so future applicants can get an idea of what each DPE likes to do on the flight and in the oral. No surprises. It is a simple narrative, so no template is needed.
 
bonefishpete said:
Easy Ride. There I said it.
Most pilots won’t admit it.
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How easy?

It really sucks when Santa Clause DPE is discovered to be cutting corners, looses his designation, and everyone gets the opportunity to demonstrate their skills to a FAA inspector as part of a mass 44709 reexamination.
 
Brad Z said:
How easy?

It really sucks when Santa Clause DPE is discovered to be cutting corners, looses his designation, and everyone gets the opportunity to demonstrate their skills to a FAA inspector as part of a mass 44709 reexamination.
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How often does this happen? Seems some DPE get a poor reputation while others are reported as fair. Which one you want to fly with.
 
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Why would an applicant need to chose a DPE more confidently? You are either prepared for the test or you aren’t.

I always tell my students the story of a reputed cup cake DPE in my area. I had a comm student with a ride he was expecting to be easy come out with is feathers smoldering a bit at the end because the test he expected and what he got were quite different. I knew another student (not mine) who sang praises about this same DPE after a sport pilot ride until the same DPE flunked them on their private ride.

People respond to personality differences between DPEs vs the actual rest. Joe might be a total grump and actually let pass some performance that could have resulted in a failure and get a bad eval.
 
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bonefishpete said:
How often does this happen? Seems some DPE get a poor reputation well others are reported as fair. Which one you want to fly with.
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More than you might expect. Usually the number of reexaminations are small enough that it doesn't make news, but if you do some searching you'll find some high profile reexaminations that involved several hundred certificate holders.

I don't know the official numbers, but there are roughly 1,100 DPEs nationwide, and probably a couple dozen terminations with cause every year. A good number of those result in 709s of pilots who did their practical tests with those DPEs.

Nobody wants to do 709 reexaminations; obviously the reexaminees, the inspectors are busy enough as it is, but nobody wants pilots who don't meet the minimum standards to be flying.

The ideal DPE is one who has good bedside manner, ie puts applicants at ease, but also sticks to the ACS, is objective, and fair in application of the standards.
 
bonefishpete said:
How often does this happen? Seems some DPE get a poor reputation while others are reported as fair. Which one you want to fly with.
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The DPE who signed my private certificate list his designation for reasons. I never got a call, but I don't know if that's because they knew who they needed to look at or the passage of time. I had taken other check rides by the time I found out, but not when it happened.
 
Lindberg said:
The DPE who signed my private certificate list his designation for reasons. I never got a call, but I don't know if that's because they knew who they needed to look at or the passage of time. I had taken other check rides by the time I found out, but not when it happened.
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Typically if you have taken another practical test that subsequently tests what the DPE in question may not have properly tested, you won't be 709'd. For example, if you did a commercial ASEL ride with a questionable DPE, doing a subsequent flight instructor single ASE with another examiner will suffice.
 
For my 1st attempt at the private checkride, the DPE (now deceased) went out of his way to cause stress and tension - a steady stream of complaints and grumbling. I think that if I'd been prepared for this, I could have passed. (He did at least give me partial credit, FWIW.)
If I ever had a real passenger like him, I'd turn around and land as soon as possible, and end the flight :mad:
The 2nd (and successful) checkride completion with a different DPE was the complete opposite :D
 
40YearDream said:
For my 1st attempt at the private checkride, the DPE (now deceased) went out of his way to cause stress and tension - a steady stream of complaints and grumbling. I think that if I'd been prepared for this, I could have passed. (He did at least give me partial credit, FWIW.)
If I ever had a real passenger like him, I'd turn around and land as soon as possible, and end the flight :mad:
The 2nd (and successful) checkride completion with a different DPE was the complete opposite :D
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I’ve taken 7 total so I‘ve sort of clumped them together, but on at least a couple of them the DPE kept up a string of patter (questions, comments, etc.) until I asked them to be quiet. At which point they said good-and shut up. Cockpit distraction management.
 
Brad Z said:
Typically if you have taken another practical test that subsequently tests what the DPE in question may not have properly tested, you won't be 709'd. For example, if you did a commercial ASEL ride with a questionable DPE, doing a subsequent flight instructor single ASE with another examiner will suffice.
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As I said, I don't think I'd taken another test before he lost his designation, but there were years between her dedesignation and my ride. My ride also was a very short active attempt from a failure with a different examiner, so either of those could be why I didn't get a call.
 
Brad Z said:
More than you might expect. Usually the number of reexaminations are small enough that it doesn't make news, but if you do some searching you'll find some high profile reexaminations that involved several hundred certificate holders.

I don't know the official numbers, but there are roughly 1,100 DPEs nationwide, and probably a couple dozen terminations with cause every year. A good number of those result in 709s of pilots who did their practical tests with those DPEs.

Nobody wants to do 709 reexaminations; obviously the reexaminees, the inspectors are busy enough as it is, but nobody wants pilots who don't meet the minimum standards to be flying.

The ideal DPE is one who has good bedside manner, ie puts applicants at ease, but also sticks to the ACS, is objective, and fair in application of the standards.
Click to expand...
Terminations are without cause because the FAA doesn’t need cause and termination letters are delivered without cause. There has been a number of examiners over the years try to get the FAA to provide cause and challenge the termination. To my knowledge they all failed..

Re-examinations after a DPE termination is a rare event and usually garner a lot of web exposure. Well over 95% of DPE terminations don’t involve retests.
 
DPEteam said:
Hi everyone,

Some time ago we asked you to share experiences with DPEs — thanks to everyone who joined the discussion!

We’re now rebuilding the DPE community on Discord. One of the sections we’re working on is a DPE rating / experience thread to help pilots choose examiners more confidently.

So we’d like to ask again:

What are your main criteria when choosing a DPE?
What do you personally pay attention to first?

And another question:

What kind of review template would actually be useful for pilots?
What information should a DPE review include to make it helpful?

Really appreciate any thoughts or ideas from you!
Click to expand...
I always based mine on availability, for example, examiners that can accommodate you a week out vs more than a month away, as well as pricing, the steeper the price, the more likely the DPE is going to try to get you to pass, as well as how they compose themself in the oral exam.
 
jsstevens said:
I’ve taken 7 total so I‘ve sort of clumped them together, but on at least a couple of them the DPE kept up a string of patter (questions, comments, etc.) until I asked them to be quiet. At which point they said good-and shut up. Cockpit distraction management.
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For my first one the DPE asked if I could help him find the pencil he dropped. I said I'd be happy to, but we'd have to land first. He laughed.

I want a DPE that is local and well respected. So that he's going to go into it with an expectation that I'm OK, so that I have an expectation that he isn't a jerk, and so that there's very little likelihood that anyone will question the outcome. I can get along with anybody for a couple of hours, and if I'm not ready for the checkride I don't want to be there.
 
Clip4 said:
Terminations are without cause because the FAA doesn’t need cause and termination letters are delivered without cause. There has been a number of examiners over the years try to get the FAA to provide cause and challenge the termination. To my knowledge they all failed..
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Does this include terminations that resulted in rechecks?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Does this include terminations that resulted in rechecks?
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I don’t know where some get the idea there are many terminations with rechecks. This not common event. The 2 more notable ones were in Ohio and Florida. One was an English language issue for Chinese applicants and the other was an ex FAA inspector who was passing people without doing the tests. Probably less than 5 over the last decade.
 
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Clip4 said:
I don’t know where some get the idea there are many terminations with rechecks. This not common event. The 2 more notable ones were in Ohio and Florida. One was an English language issue for Chinese applicants and the other was an ex FAA inspector who was passing people without doing the tests
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There were 3 others that come to mind.
 
Clip4 said:
I don’t know where some get the idea there are many terminations with rechecks. This not common event. The 2 more notable ones were in Ohio and Florida. One was an English language issue for Chinese applicants and the other was an ex FAA inspector who was passing people without doing the tests. Probably less than 5 over the last decade.
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were the two notable ones not for cause?
 
I suspect whatever template or criteria are used, it will end up the same as product ratings, where volume and distribution mean more than any individual rating.

For a template, I’d be looking at educational course surveys for some basics. There will be some DPE-specific items, like availability and requiring mnemonic memorization (had to stick that one in :D).
 
Availability and that alone.
What should a DPE review include to make it useful? Their availability.
The rest is really common sense and I thought available on FAA sites.
 
MauleSkinner said:
were the two notable ones not for cause?
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Sure, but I don’t believe as a matter of policy the FAA provides the cause in the designation revocation - although in these egregious situations it probably doesn’t need explanation.
 
Having spent a few years as a DPE, I'd make it a requirement to identify the applicant and give the DPE a chance to respond to criticism.
 
dtuuri said:
Having spent a few years as a DPE, I'd make it a requirement to identify the applicant and give the DPE a chance to respond to criticism.
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Yeah, if an applicant says, “I got everything right and he still busted me,” you could add something like “the FAA inspector observing the checkride thought I should’ve busted the applicant sooner.”
 
Do trucking companies track road test failures and use that information on hiring?

Or is aviation the only entity that counts test failures as a black mark on one’s record?
 
bonefishpete said:
Do trucking companies track road test failures and use that information on hiring?

Or is aviation the only entity that counts test failures as a black mark on one’s record?
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Sometimes you can do it more than once. People still remember an attorney here in NY that didn't pass his bar exam the first time, and then went on to not be able to pass his instrument checkride because he put the plane into the ocean. Point being, there are fields where they track failures, and that doesn't mean it's something you can't get past, but some consequences for lack of skill or knowledge are higher than others.
 
Albany Tom said:
Sometimes you can do it more than once. People still remember an attorney here in NY that didn't pass his bar exam the first time, and then went on to not be able to pass his instrument checkride because he put the plane into the ocean. Point being, there are fields where they track failures, and that doesn't mean it's something you can't get past, but some consequences for lack of skill or knowledge are higher than others.
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That is true. Simple washout rate.
 
RyanShort1 said:
3. Be utterly useless.
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I must respectfully disagree. This will give these who fail a place to blame someone else and commiserate with others who fail. I've said before, I've had six checkrides with five DPEs. I felt all treated me fairly, even the failure. And probably most could have technically justified a failure.

Do DPEs have bad days like anyone, sure. But I've never seen a case where a DPE who was accused of being harsh wasn't just applying standards. In most "unfair" failures I've seen, the stated reason for failure was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
 
Being in Florida we have a ton of pilots doing training. We also have a lot of different blogs going on about training and time building. One site a DPE was mentioned and information was requested on his rides. Two to three different pilots replied don’t do it. Several other names were mentioned recommending them as fair and friendly.

Was he a tough or unfair ride? I don’t know.

Is it wrong or cheating to use such recommendations? Would it be wrong to ask around for recommendations for a CFI also?

Due diligence in aviation is a good thing I believe.
 
Due diligence is one thing, but getting a recommendation from SGOTI?

Just like website reviews on businesses the typical person who was happy with the exam won’t post, but someone who wasn’t prepared and ****ed up will have an axe to grind and will of course try to blame the examiner.

After spending a career and taking numerous check rides with ASI’s, DPE’s, TCE’s, Check Airman and APD’s plus some foreign CAA’s I never shopped or picked my examiner. I took what was presented and came prepared.

Oh, and l’ve never failed a flight check.
 
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bonefishpete said:
Being in Florida we have a ton of pilots doing training. We also have a lot of different blogs going on about training and time building. One site a DPE was mentioned and information was requested on his rides. Two to three different pilots replied don’t do it. Several other names were mentioned recommending them as fair and friendly.

Was he a tough or unfair ride? I don’t know.

Is it wrong or cheating to use such recommendations? Would it be wrong to ask around for recommendations for a CFI also?

Due diligence in aviation is a good thing I believe.
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Recommendations are one thing. Getting the gouge on his checkride is more often used to find out what you don’t have to know than anything else, which in my mind defeats the concept of being prepared for a checkride.
 
With the change from the PTS to the ACS it is worse than in the past because enough of the test is subjective and it is hard to argue that the examiner’s judgment is worse than the applicant…
 
RyanShort1 said:
With the change from the PTS to the ACS it is worse than in the past because enough of the test is subjective and it is hard to argue that the examiner’s judgment is worse than the applicant…
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Hmm... so you're saying now the test is too subjective? Y'mean, now its back like it was with the Flight Test Guides before the PTS, only a lot more words now?
 
Y'all have enough DPEs in your area to be picky? When I went for my PPL, my CFI set me up. If I recall, we only had 2 in the area at the time. Now there's 4 within a reasonable distance according to the database. But one of them is Michael Goulian. :eek:
 
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