Don't be a dick

RalphInCA said:
OK. Perhaps it wasn't such a great idea. :redface:

My initial (obviously not well thought through) idea was to use the passion we have as pilots in a way that has worked in another passion filled organization - the evangelistic church.

But I see now, upon further reflection, that we don't really want to "capture people into" aviation like the church does.

Perhaps another church term applies here? Discipleship? :dunno:
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If you're looking for a way to apply Christianity to this situation, I would suggest 'forgiveness.' (And preferably silently, not over the radio where it could be misinterpreted.)
 
bullwinkle said:
It could. I'm not saying you should not transmit that information. Just that in the grand scheme of things, it's probably the *least* important part of a position report.
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Probably true.

A lot of times I transmit the abbreviated version, which is probably easier to remember anyway.
 
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Kaniki said:
I'm at the stage of my learning process where I'm doing almost all the radio work...and still invariably getting something wrong with almost every transmission. My CFI corrects me gently, so I'm getting better -- but he shares your opinion that if the message got through, that's what counts. And making students too nervous to try doesn't help their learning.

I'm lucky that nobody's ever given me grief about it over the air. Even the tower is pretty welcoming: they know the call numbers of the planes belonging to the flight school, and do their best to make things friendly for students.

OTOH: It may also be a Seattle thing. People don't tolerate rudeness much here.
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Not just Seattle. The tower is pretty forgiving for such things at KOLM, too. They understand students are still learning. Just remember to read back hold short instructions. They are serious about that (and should be).

bullwinkle said:
It could. I'm not saying you should not transmit that information. Just that in the grand scheme of things, it's probably the *least* important part of a position report.
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If you can read a plane's number in flight you are TOO CLOSE! Yes, the FAA (and FCC, I'm sure) want you to use it, but I'd rather know that you're flying a C-172 or whatever and where you are.
 
To enter Class Bravo airspace one must be cleared. You must hear "cleared to enter the Class Bravo airspace". Part of that clearance is the tailnumber. If you don't hear your tailnumber, you are still not cleared....
 
CTLSi said:
To enter Class Bravo airspace one must be cleared. You must hear "cleared to enter the Class Bravo airspace". Part of that clearance is the tailnumber. If you don't hear your tailnumber, you are still not cleared....
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Thanks for that.

I always assumed that once they cleared any aircraft into Class Bravo, that meant I could enter as well!

Again, thanks for clarifying that. :rolleyes2:
 
PAustin said:
Again, how do you read the tail number when 1/4 or 1/8 mile away. Typically if you can really read it you're to close to them in the first place. Again, this is at an uncontrolled airport - not talking to ATC. Of course you have to a tail number to them.
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A unique identifier in all transmissions is an FCC requirement, not FAA, and the FCC says that the aircraft registration number may be used in lieu of an FCC assigned call sign. They can't see your tail number either, nor do they care whether you are talking to ATC, but presumably if your aircraft radio is transmitting crap outside the allowed frequency then the ID is supposed to help them get in contact with the registered owner and alert them of the problem.
 
FastEddieB said:
Let me play devil's (dick's?) advocate for a moment.

Flight instructors are primed to look for errors. From small to large, it takes up a lot of their time and attention, and is a large part of what they're being paid to do.

So its almost a reflex to point out errors.

But they do need to be couched so as to not always appear negative and nitpicky.

For instance, "Very nice landing! MUCH better!!! Still, you had a little more back stick to go and you let the plane drift left just a tad right at the end. But really good job - let's try another!"

Similarly, this correction of "left final" might have been almost automatic. I don't think I would have jumped on the air to say anything, but later in conversation I might have mentioned it if I came into contact with the pilot - solely for his edification.

"By the way, good job out there in the pattern today! But technically, final isn't left or right, so that sounds a bit funny."

But bear in mind, I might just be a dick!
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As an instructor, you probably wouldn't have called the 25 hour student a moron for making that call though. That and the fact that he's doing it in short final are what makes him a dick.
 
Heard this week:
Tower: "What are your intentions?"
Pilot: "Get parked, get drunk, get laid."
Tower: "With me to Expensive Air via C2, . Good luck"
Pilot: "With you to Expensive Air, via C2. Thank you."

I'll bet a whole bunch of that conversation isn't covered in the manual.
 
MtPJimB said:
As an instructor, you probably wouldn't have called the 25 hour student a moron for making that call though. That and the fact that he's doing it in short final are what makes him a dick.
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The dick is not the student for making a mistake. The dick is anyone else forgetting the mistakes they made and jumping the guy for it.
 
Shepherd said:
Heard this week:
Tower: "What are your intentions?"
Pilot: "Get parked, get drunk, get laid."
Tower: "With me to Expensive Air via C2, . Good luck"
Pilot: "With you to Expensive Air, via C2. Thank you."

I'll bet a whole bunch of that conversation isn't covered in the manual.
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I'm going to remember that one.
 
CTLSi said:
Want some radio calls heard on non towered airfields that are made by thousand hour pilots that are wrong?

1. 'clear of the active' (what runway is the 'active' is it stenciled on the ground?)
2. its where, who, what, where (not 'over the river, cessna (no tail number), turning downwind (while still on a 45), dildo city traffic)
3. 'will do the best we can', swell, should we expect less?
4. misuse of roger, wilco, affirmative and acknowledged
5. landing with unstated intent, full stop? touch and go? low pass?
6. not declaring 'clear of runway xx' to let others know they can takeoff or land

There are tons of others. And add to that guys that cross midfield at PA, or worse, fly straight in, or drop into downwind on a midfield cross in front of other traffic.
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You're being as petty as the dick on the ground.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Does that mean they came in from a left downwind or they are turning left onto final? I don't see clarity, I see confusion by adding left/ right.
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Seems "final" is self explanatory. The Left just let's them know what direction he came from. As pointed out, I didn't say 'twas correct terminology...I just don't see it as an egregious error worthy of public scorn. I leave the ATINTAPA calls for that honor.
 
LDJones said:
You're being as petty as the dick on the ground.
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Me thinks Cirrus fan-boy / Tesla fan-boy hater just gets his jollies out of seeing how many pilots he can get riled up enough to respond to his posts.

Just another pot/kettle thread of his.
 
CTLSi said:
Want some radio calls heard on non towered airfields that are made by thousand hour pilots that are wrong?

1. 'clear of the active' (what runway is the 'active' is it stenciled on the ground?)
2. its where, who, what, where (not 'over the river, cessna (no tail number), turning downwind (while still on a 45), dildo city traffic)
3. 'will do the best we can', swell, should we expect less?
4. misuse of roger, wilco, affirmative and acknowledged
5. landing with unstated intent, full stop? touch and go? low pass?
6. not declaring 'clear of runway xx' to let others know they can takeoff or land

There are tons of others. And add to that guys that cross midfield at PA, or worse, fly straight in, or drop into downwind on a midfield cross in front of other traffic.
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7. Saying clear of the runway when I can see you're still 1000' from turning off.
 
I absolutely have NO problem with someone identifying themselves with "left" or "right" downwind, base, or final, and here is why.
At a number of other airports I fly into, the tower frequently has people flying into the same runway on left and right approaches. By announcing where you are and what direction you are coming from makes the pattern a lot safer place under those circumstances. It also reminds the guy in the tower who and where you are.
 
We had a standard reply for that in the Navy. When someone made a stupid comment or suggestion, the correct response was "noted". It was short and efficient. Best of all everyone knew what it meant so the person making the stupid comment or suggestion knew that he got told to go screw himself with just one word.

Jim
 
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Kiddo's Driver said:
We had a standard reply for that in the Navy. When someone made a stupid comment or suggestion, the correct response was "noted". It was short and effecient. Best of all everyone knew what it meant so the person making the stupid comment or suggestion knew that he got told to go screw himself with just one word.
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Noted.

:)
 
I trained and fly out of a class D and I'm used to talking to the tower. I was recently approaching an uncontrolled field, there was a 172 making a straight in and I think it was a champ in the pattern as well. I informed them I was about to enter downwind and one of the guys answered "ok, you'll be #2 behind the champ then.... "

I keyed my mic and read the instructions back....
 
i wonder why he said that I've never heard that before did his cfi or do the other cfi where you learn teach that, doestn sound bad just how come you don't op say that as well?
 
"You say tomato, I say **** yourself and be a man on the ground if you have the balls to land and tell me to my face that I am a moron.

Left taxi to the ramp."
 
LDJones said:
Seems "final" is self explanatory. The Left just let's them know what direction he came from. As pointed out, I didn't say 'twas correct terminology...I just don't see it as an egregious error worthy of public scorn. I leave the ATINTAPA calls for that honor.
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I know you were not stating correct or incorrect, however ..... I guess it's moot because if they're turning onto final the position should be somewhere near the extended centerline of FAC.

I was thinking more along the lines of left or right base.
 
OK, someone please 'splain the correct use of "wilco" to me.

I get that it means "Will comply." But the thing of it is: Fifty hours in the air in two widely-separated states, and I have NEVER heard anyone actually use this term over a radio.

Does anybody actually use it? If so, who, and when? It sounds vaguely quaint and antique.
 
Kaniki said:
OK, someone please 'splain the correct use of "wilco" to me.

I get that it means "Will comply." But the thing of it is: Fifty hours in the air in two widely-separated states, and I have NEVER heard anyone actually use this term over a radio.

Does anybody actually use it? If so, who, and when? It sounds vaguely quaint and antique.
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Twr: Bonana 07F report midfield left downwind 16R
Me: Wilco, 07F


Dont use it for anything you are required to read back, like a clearance, runway crossing instruction etc. A quick way to acknowledge a wordy other instruction that requires you to do something.
 
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Kaniki said:
OK, someone please 'splain the correct use of "wilco" to me.

I get that it means "Will comply." But the thing of it is: Fifty hours in the air in two widely-separated states, and I have NEVER heard anyone actually use this term over a radio.

Does anybody actually use it? If so, who, and when? It sounds vaguely quaint and antique.
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Aviation radio procedures are an abbreviated form of military radio communications, that's where these words and phrases originate. There is nothing patently wrong with using "wilco" in context, I just don't find it very useful, since a readback of a short instruction doesn't take any longer to say, and typically a readback of longer instructions requires a readback anyway (e.g. taxi and runway crossing instructions.) Plus a readback ensures that you have correctly heard the instruction.
 
I got into aviation as a result of a co-worker giving me a couple of free flying lessons. It was like giving away free drugs. ;)
 
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