DOJ using small aircraft to gather cell phone data

denverpilot said:
You seem to misunderstand. I'm all for accountable law enforcement. But I'm sure we could cut LE budgets in half and really see no significant change in crime rates nor personal safety. Probably see a whole lot less time for minor traffic tickets though.

Crime in the U.S. has been on the decline since the 80's. Seems logical that LE budgets including DHS would have gone down in response, no?

Or if you want to argue that it's the additional expenditure on LE that's causing the decline, you may want to look up the definition of "diminishing returns". Paying 10 or 100 or 1000x the initial price for a service to gain single digit percentage changes per year in something is by definition a bad investment.

I'm pretty sure you're one of many still under the mistaken assumption that more money and bigger government means a better job done. You'll eventually get over it.

Or not. Depends on where your paycheck comes from. That always trumps reason.

Not everything government thinks up is actually worth doing. Most of it is ungodly expensive for very little measurable result and some of it pays no heed to the concept that government is here to serve us, not the other way around.

I have an excellent idea. Whoever ****ed off those terrorists? Take away funding for their security detail and send the terrorists their itinerary.

Should take care of it nicely. Lots cheaper too. It'll be really easy to find replacement egotists to replace all those who voted to send all the poorest of our country's kids to shoot at them.

Much much cheaper than all the domestic spy programs.

Maybe the next batch of politicians would think twice about voting to kill folk if we just couldn't find the pocket change to pay for their bodyguards for a couple of years.
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Your assumptions are what they are....

Nobody ****ed off terrorists....reality is...you can't fix stupid or undereducated barbaric people who refuse to evolve.

Personally im for less government...less taxes...

The topic at hand....isn't going to hurt you or me. But I see it helping on the domestic front.

Don't make mountains out of mole hills.
 
TEFLONSEAN said:
Your assumptions are what they are....



Nobody ****ed off terrorists....reality is...you can't fix stupid or undereducated barbaric people who refuse to evolve.



Personally im for less government...less taxes...



The topic at hand....isn't going to hurt you or me. But I see it helping on the domestic front.



Don't make mountains out of mole hills.
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Huh. We didn't fund Bin Laden nor Saddam then, huh? Guess you missed that. Sure we didn't **** them off. Pretty sure Bin Laden attended Oxford, so I'm not thinking you've got this made up story about his educational background being correct, either.

You know the problem with molehills... When you scatter a bunch of molehills around it makes it look like you didn't move 100 tons of dirt. Isn't 50% of your paycheck if you work, enough to say, gosh... There's sure a lot of people living off of me, and I'm just covering the interest payments on the loans they took out. I'm not even directly paying them. Perhaps, just perhaps, we spend a lot of money on crap that yields very little?

What does a nice portable gov-spec fake cell site cost these days? I know the regular ones are by no means cheap. How many were purchased? Service contracts? Spares?

RF specialized reception toys aren't cheap. A friend prototyped a computer controlled spectrum analysis device that cost more than 10 suburban houses. The company had them on the market for just a few months. Friend used family contacts to show one off to someone in DC. Once a couple of TLAs saw it, they bought the entire stock from the company of everything they had and ordered enough the company closed their doors to the public and no longer sells them to anyone but the Feds. He got his photo taken with an FCC commissioner a month later and an appointment to a job only about seven people have in the country.

He's a bright guy, but not that bright. Family name meant everything.

And you're paying for all of that. Well, your loans are.

At some stage you point at the useless, expensive, stuff like this cell site thing and say, "I'm just not interested in supporting that anymore. Not interested in the price tag, not interested in the mission, not willing to pretend it's okay because that's "just the way it is", not interested in listening to false rhetoric about how it'll combat terrorism, none of it. It's time to set some priorities and this one is way way way down the list.

Lest you think it's limited to only this silliness, let's just drop all the mobile X-Ray machines that are big enough to look at entire tractor trailers, all the millimeter wave boondoggle gadgetry that has been fooled numerous times at airports, and etc etc etc.

In other words, give all the molehills a shave. Take 20% away from every molehill builder's budget and let them whine like babies about it. They'll either still get the core job done, or be totally defunded during the next molehill shave.
 
Meh, I don't know.

If all they do is read all the traffic looking for ONE then fine. I'd compare that to standing on a street corner looking at everyone while trying to identify one. If, in that situation the tool a picture of everyone walking by and kept the date and time and location on file that'd be a problem. But they say they're not. They look at the fire hose and attempt to isolate the one.

This, I think, is okay. The OP is right though...interesting.
 
Does this mean they aren't paying the wireless companies for data? Wireless companies make a fortune charging a service fee to fulfill the govt data requests. Oh they are grabbing and storing everything. I'm waiting ng for people to start getting hassled for not having a phone on them.
 
Greg, you beat me to it. I was just going to comment that the way we will know they are watching 'everyone' is the day the congress passes a law requiring every citizen to have a cellphone with them at all times .

"Can't happen", the happy campers cry out.
"You are paranoid" they chortle.

Uuhhh, OK. So that means that there is no law which requires that every citizen must purchase a government approved health insurance policy every year.

Gosh, I'm glad to know that. I have been under the delusion that there is such a law - which cancelled our otherwise excellent health insurance policy and forced us to replace it with one that costs more and has $13,000 in an annual deductible costs that ours did not have during the previous two decades.
My bad. Must have been a nightmare caused by ingesting baloney.

SARCASM OFF:

I am not a paranoid. As far as the cellphone goes I am not forced to carry one (yet).
But, the assault on Constitutional guarantees by the ACA, which for the first time in the history of this country means that the politicians have now forced me to buy something I don't choose to buy, merely because I exist, will be marked by the future historians writing THE RISE DECLINE AND FALL OF THE AMERICAN REPUBLIC as the beginning moment of the fall.
 
TEFLONSEAN said:
Nobody ****ed off terrorists....
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Watch the Donald Trump roast. He brags about selling land he didnt own to Bin Ladin. They, our allies at the time, went to our government for help. When our government wouldn't hand him over, they got even. Innocent civilians suffered because our government wouldn't hand over a criminal. Personally, I think they should all be charged with, and executed for treason. Like recommended in Jefferson's book, replace the entire system every so often to keep them under the control of the people.
 
Captain said:
If all they do is read all the traffic looking for ONE then fine. I'd compare that to standing on a street corner looking at everyone while trying to identify one. If, in that situation the tool a picture of everyone walking by and kept the date and time and location on file that'd be a problem. But they say they're not. They look at the fire hose and attempt to isolate the one.
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If that "one" is a suspect in a criminal case, well, maybe. But historically, that isn't always the case. Sometimes that "one" is a cop's ex-wife, or a business rival in the cop's outside job, or he's doing it for someone he knows, either a friend or for money. This abuse of police authority has happened with other technology, no reason this would be any different.

The advantage of requiring a subpoena is that it make this sort of abuse more difficult.

Ron Wanttaja
 
2006......buffalo n.y. Two FBI agents flew a super cub out of a small airport I used....for fun. At buffalo airport, for their job, they flew a cessna Cardinal ( not a 150' it wouldn't hold all their stuff) loaded with " equipment" to track drug smugglers between U.S. And Canada. So it's been going on for years. Be calm. ( (They could track by radio or phone. ) both were very sharp and friendly. They were transferred after a while, lost track of them.
 
wanttaja said:
If that "one" is a suspect in a criminal case, well, maybe. But historically, that isn't always the case. Sometimes that "one" is a cop's ex-wife, or a business rival in the cop's outside job, or he's doing it for someone he knows, either a friend or for money. This abuse of police authority has happened with other technology, no reason this would be any different.

The advantage of requiring a subpoena is that it make this sort of abuse more difficult.

Ron Wanttaja
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Any technology from fire to fission can be used for good or bad. Intent is a tough thing to regulate but America does pretty well with the concept of checks and balances. I agree oversight is needed, and not secret courts either.
 
Stop using cell phones. They will never find you.:rolleyes: Hey, some pilots actually found work!! That's a win for GA, right? Soon enough they will be replaced by autonomous drones, so they better start looking for new work.:(
 
I think I'd rather be tracked and recorded. All the better to be able to prove I do nothing wrong if ever falsely accused.
 
TEFLONSEAN said:
100% sure not used for illegal immigration.....so keep grasping.

Not sure if you know...but there is a possiblity of terrorists in the US.

Doom n gloom....is a good counter argument though.:rolleyes:
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Ahh, almost forgot the good ol Terrorist ©

Need to book a hotel, there's a app for that

Need to trample the constitution, there's a Terrorist© for that
 
N321SR said:
I think I'd rather be tracked and recorded. All the better to be able to prove I do nothing wrong if ever falsely accused.
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That's so cute. Thinking you as a citizen would ever get access to the take for your defense. It's not often you see this kind of innocence and gullibility. ;)
 
docmirror said:
That's so cute. Thinking you as a citizen would ever get access to the take for your defense. It's not often you see this kind of innocence and gullibility. ;)
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we call those people.... SHEEPLES.....:rolleyes:
 
Hmmm, it's not that particularly big of a deal, it doesn't really expand their capabilities, just their abilities, it just takes the phone provider out of the loop. If the system were deployed on thousands of drones for SkyNet, it would be scary, in the hands of USMS I'm not particularly concerned. It's not like they are out there sifting your phone calls. If I don't want to be found by the USMS through my phone, I won't carry a phone that links to me, simple, but it's been that way since cell phones came out.
 
Who needs to sift... When you've built the largest data storage facility in the world in Utah?


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denverpilot said:
Who needs to sift... When you've built the largest data storage facility in the world in Utah?


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But... But... But...

Crapper said under oath the NSA does NOT spy or collect data on the general public...:no:......:mad2:...:rolleyes:
 
denverpilot said:
Who needs to sift... When you've built the largest data storage facility in the world in Utah?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Because storing data in bulk alone does nothing, you have to process the data to get information. More to your point though, if that was the intent, they would not use this method, for that they can just save all the telecoms and data throughput straight from the trunk feeds, no need for a small plane. This is a tactical use system, not strategic.
 
Henning said:
Because storing data in bulk alone does nothing, you have to process the data to get information. More to your point though, if that was the intent, they would not use this method, for that they can just save all the telecoms and data throughput straight from the trunk feeds, no need for a small plane. This is a tactical use system, not strategic.
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Yup.... But the Strategic snooping will lead to a tactical mission... And you know the guv never makes mistakes...:nonod::nonod::nonod:......:rolleyes:
 
N801BH said:
Yup.... But the Strategic snooping will lead to a tactical mission... And you know the guv never makes mistakes...:nonod::nonod::nonod:......:rolleyes:
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This tool is not a strategic snooping tool, they have Carnivour and other programs for that. You want to worry about something, worry about that, because that has been filtering all the coms coming through America and the Internet for quite awhile.

What this tool appears to do is help locate a cellphone in real time without the delay of going through the provider system. This tool is not a new concern either, they just improved the system implementation. Remember who this is, USMS, not FBI, not NSA, understand what job USMS does and you see why I'm not particularly perturbed by this.
 
Henning said:
This tool is not a strategic snooping tool, they have Carnivour and other programs for that. You want to worry about something, worry about that, because that has been filtering all the coms coming through America and the Internet for quite awhile.

What this tool appears to do is help locate a cellphone in real time without the delay of going through the provider system. This tool is not a new concern either, they just improved the system implementation.
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And who is "they "....:dunno:.....:rolleyes:
 
Henning said:
:goofy:

Government intelligence agencies, I think Carnivore is joint FBI/NSA, but they can all access the system IIRC.
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Now you are starting to put 2 and 2 together...:thumbsup:..

Ps... I "think " Carnivore started as a military program... I have a good story about Carnivore and the CAP.. Don't get me started...:nono:
 
N801BH said:
Now you are starting to put 2 and 2 together...:thumbsup:..

Ps... I "think " Carnivore started as a military program... I have a good story about Carnivore and the CAP.. Don't get me started...:nono:
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I'm not starting to put 2&2 together lol, I know what the capabilities are, which is why this program doesn't particularly bother me. When you consider the limitations of this platform in the light of the capabilities of the other platforms, it does not make sense to waste budget on this program to provide duplicate data much less efficiently. You would use this platform to do what those cannot, and that is to locate and track the phone in real time. You can put a man in quiet orbit overhead and direct men on the ground.
 
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Believe what you like. Life is too short to have to be looking over your shoulder all the time.
 
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