Silvaire
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Silvaire
Wanna bet?
Does this picture show corrosion/pitting in a cylinder?
- Thread starter netsurfr
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Wanna bet?
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
Silvaire
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Silvaire
Airworthiness is not determined by whether there an NTSB report or not. There are plenty of accident reports involving aircraft that were completely airworthy at the time.
Like it or not, required placards are listed in the Type Certificate Datasheet so you gotta have 'em.
Like it or not, required placards are listed in the Type Certificate Datasheet so you gotta have 'em.
NoHeat
Final Approach
I used Savvy to manage my prebuy, and I was happy. I know a number of their other prebuy customers, and they were also happy with their experience. I continue to use them to manage my maintenance. I think they are great for a first-time plane buyer. More experienced owners might not need them as much.
In a nutshell, they are a middleman between you and a shop. They help you pick a really good shop, usually one with whom they've already had a lot of good experiences. Near Dallas, that might be ClearStar in Addison. For a prebuy inspection, Savvy gives the mechanic a checklist, and after the inspection Savvy helps you interpret the report from the mechanic.
The guy at Savvy who does this for you is typically a former director of maintenance at a service center, who now does a part-time gig with Savvy. He doesn't look at the plane himself. Instead, while working from a distance, he just helps you, using an email log, to deal with the shop and make wise choices.
I know that Savvy is big on bore scope inspections. My experience is that the mechanics they recommend can render a good opinion about what they see live with their own eyes, and can give you a useful report of what they saw. But if you ask them to also be a good photographer so that you can see it, too, you will be disappointed. It seems mechanics generally aren't good photographers with a bore scope. Hence the blurry photo that the OP posted. It has happened to me, too. Good mechanic, bad photographer.
Savvy says that the vast majority of the prebuys they manage eventually become a purchase. To me, that means that if they recommend that you walk away from a plane, it's a pretty big red flag. With all the other planes out there for sale, I would let it go.
In a nutshell, they are a middleman between you and a shop. They help you pick a really good shop, usually one with whom they've already had a lot of good experiences. Near Dallas, that might be ClearStar in Addison. For a prebuy inspection, Savvy gives the mechanic a checklist, and after the inspection Savvy helps you interpret the report from the mechanic.
The guy at Savvy who does this for you is typically a former director of maintenance at a service center, who now does a part-time gig with Savvy. He doesn't look at the plane himself. Instead, while working from a distance, he just helps you, using an email log, to deal with the shop and make wise choices.
I know that Savvy is big on bore scope inspections. My experience is that the mechanics they recommend can render a good opinion about what they see live with their own eyes, and can give you a useful report of what they saw. But if you ask them to also be a good photographer so that you can see it, too, you will be disappointed. It seems mechanics generally aren't good photographers with a bore scope. Hence the blurry photo that the OP posted. It has happened to me, too. Good mechanic, bad photographer.
Savvy says that the vast majority of the prebuys they manage eventually become a purchase. To me, that means that if they recommend that you walk away from a plane, it's a pretty big red flag. With all the other planes out there for sale, I would let it go.
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Placards most certainly are airworthy items.
Airworthiness is a legal status, not a safety status. Plane can be airworthy and unsafe, or safe and unairworthy, the two are only loosely related.
1600vw
Pattern Altitude
When I arrived here at my field and opened the hangar door there sat a 172. It looked in bad shape. It had not been touched in 19 years.
Me showing up got a fire lit under the airfield owner. I come out to the hangar one day and see the airplane is being worked on. A couple weeks later I show up and she is out side running.
I asked the A&P what it took to get her running again. He said over a week of soaking the cylinders with oil to free them. Then the usual stuff.
Today we have flown this airplane for a few hundred hrs. It made a trip to oshkosh last year.
I could just imagine the amount of corrosion in that engine. I am sure it was full of corrosion. The engine was locked when I saw it the first time.
Tony
Me showing up got a fire lit under the airfield owner. I come out to the hangar one day and see the airplane is being worked on. A couple weeks later I show up and she is out side running.
I asked the A&P what it took to get her running again. He said over a week of soaking the cylinders with oil to free them. Then the usual stuff.
Today we have flown this airplane for a few hundred hrs. It made a trip to oshkosh last year.
I could just imagine the amount of corrosion in that engine. I am sure it was full of corrosion. The engine was locked when I saw it the first time.
Tony
The amount of boats out there running on engines that had been rusted seized and then revived without disassembly and continue to run for years would likely astound you.
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
Can't be good long term though?
1600vw
Pattern Altitude
Occitan is still running 26years later after I unseized her 8-71 with a mix of acetone and transmission fluid, and a pipe wrench with a long assed cheater pipe on it. I did that in Los Angeles in 1989 and she has been around the world 3 times since, just saw her in Genova a couple weeks ago, Denis said he's never done anything but change some injectors.
1600vw
Pattern Altitude
Yes this happens more then one would think. We hear about the engines that come apart from corrosion but never hear about the engines that live for years after corrosion seize.
Maybe we need a thread. Engines running after being corrosion seized and hrs flown to date after said seizer.
Reality is engines are extremely rugged.
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
I agree the corrosion bogeyman has become a urban myth, like a plane in Florida is just asking for it to crumble into a pile of rust.
Boats are exposed to sea air, used infrequently, and generally are abused.
However they burn diesel, the byproducts might be less corrosive then AvGas, and their air intake is not directly exposed to the weather.
Majority of boats run gasoline engines similar to what's in cars and trucks (many are direct derivatives).
dell30rb
Final Approach
The air intake is exposed to the salty bilge.
As Henning said boat engines are very close to their automotive cousins. The most common inboard is a small block chevy 350 with a different cam and brass freeze plugs to resist corrosion.
netsurfr
Pre-takeoff checklist
Yeah we have a 31' boat and you're right about that. Boats live in a hostile environment even for owners like us who have ours in fresh water lakes and only for 5 months of the year.
netsurfr
Pre-takeoff checklist
3 years worth of oil analysis (spectrographic) shows all levels normal w/ this engine and oil is clear and filter shows no particles.
netsurfr
Pre-takeoff checklist
So while I'm waiting for $ estimates from A&P to decide how I proceed I have a question...
Are there other items in the list of findings that you guys would find to be biggies (expensive, scary, unsafe, warning sign)?
Are there other items in the list of findings that you guys would find to be biggies (expensive, scary, unsafe, warning sign)?
The stabilator stuff needs to be dealt with, all of it, I'd replace the cracked tip as well rather than drill it. Wing tips, no problem, but if the stabilator tip decides to lose a chunk, that can cause some problems. That and the wing fitting are the only things of prime concern I see.
netsurfr
Pre-takeoff checklist
Ok got the cost estimates from the A&P and it comes out to be about $7,800 to do everything on the list and that includes pulling 2 cylinders to inspect as well as to re-hone put new rings on them as per their inspection they only saw corrosion on 2 cylinders (#2 & #4). That also includes doing the repair and complying with SB977.
On a side note... I got a message from Mike Busch and he thinks spending $140K on a 79 Dakota (no matter how well equipped & upgraded) is a poor choice when I could spend $140 - $150K to buy a used Cirrus SR22.
On a side note... I got a message from Mike Busch and he thinks spending $140K on a 79 Dakota (no matter how well equipped & upgraded) is a poor choice when I could spend $140 - $150K to buy a used Cirrus SR22.
He's not completely wrong, however your forward going expenses in the SR-22 are likely to be considerably higher in one you buy at that price. I'm pretty sure the PA-28-236 will haul more load as well if that matters.
netsurfr
Pre-takeoff checklist
I considered an sr22 but not comfortable with that. I feel is a it too advanced a plane for my experience of 175 hours plus insurance and everything else is more expensive to maintain. Then I looked at the sr20, da40 and and newer archer but useful load is the price to pay with those.
I don't see anything wrong with choosing a PA-28-236. It would have to be extremely well equipped for $140k though and near Mint.
netsurfr
Pre-takeoff checklist
Forgot that I never attached info on the dakota so here it is...
http://www.airmart.com/aircraft-for-sale/115/piper/1979-piper-dakota/n2178z
http://www.airmart.com/aircraft-for-sale/115/piper/1979-piper-dakota/n2178z
Yep, that's nicely equipped.
MooneyDriver78
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MooneyDriver78
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As I said, I would hold off on pulling 2 cyl, fix the other squawks, continue frequent oil changes with oil analysis done, do a borescope at next annual, check results, rinse and repeat...
The only reason I would still pull a jug was to look at the cam, but if the overhaul is less than 10 years old and the plane has been flying regularly, I wouldn't bother.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I agree with him. $140k for a 79 Dakota no matter what's bolted to the panel seems like too much damn money, especially with an engine that is "questionable".
Not saying the engine won't get you another 15 years, but for that price, there should be any question. Even with a new engine, still seems expensive.
Just my opinion, if it is what you want, go for it.
netsurfr
Pre-takeoff checklist
Maybe but then again what in the $140K price range will provide reasonable cruise speed, ability to carry 4 normal size adults plus stuff with full tanks, and take off from higher DA conditions, lower cost of insurance & maintenance and not look like a 40 year old plane? We're really looking at used SR22 (awesome but much more expensive to own), DA40 (great but 2 maybe 3 person plane at most) , Cherokee 6/Lance/Saratoga (great useful load but don't need a 6 seater and related expenses plus I would need to upgrade interiors & exteriors and avionics), or older and not upgraded Dakota (great useful load BUT if I'm interested in making it look like a newer plane so my passengers are not wondering how old this thing is and if I'm interested in modern avionics then it would cost dearly to buy one for $60 - $90K and then pay a shop to do all the upgrading). Now I totally agree w/ you that if this engine shows problems once cylinders are pulled then $140K is too much but then again the A&P who did the pre-buy doesn't think there are/will be problems down below.
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For what you're getting you're right, you could buy a project plane, but when you were finished it would cost $30k more, and you wouldn't have had use of it for a year. A decade ago that plane would have been $120k without the upgrades.
netsurfr
Pre-takeoff checklist
Exactly. I got some estimates on what it would take to do a lot of what this Dakota has (exterior/interior/avionics) and I would be spending $40K+ more easily along w/ all the hassle and waiting.
Like I said I'd either be looking at a SR22 but even just the insurance on that plane for a low time pilot like me is crazy expensive PLUS that's too advanced a plane for me and similar reason as to why I decided against used Bonanza.
Like I said I'd either be looking at a SR22 but even just the insurance on that plane for a low time pilot like me is crazy expensive PLUS that's too advanced a plane for me and similar reason as to why I decided against used Bonanza.
Understood, although I disagree the Bonanza would be too advanced for you, that's your decision to make. If the plane is in good shape and you are going to keep it for several years getting good use out of it, it will serve you just fine. You're buying a plane at top of market, and if buying with intent of resale in a couple of years, it will be difficult to achieve any financial parity at sale. However, if you get good use out of the plane, that becomes a secondary issue because you're actually buying a plane for the use value, not resale, and this sounds like it's a very usable plane for you which leaves the deal at a reasonable value.
So if you buy this plane, fly the hell out of it and get your money's worth.
netsurfr
Pre-takeoff checklist
We're a family of 3 (me, wife, 4 year old) so the plane we've been seeking a plane that can carry the 3 of us plus stuff on 500NM or less x-country trips and also have the ability to carry 4 adults every once in a while. We wanted descent cruise speed, and relatively low ownership/maintenance costs. My wife prefers fixed gear so we don't have to worry about the extra maintenance/insurance and risk of something not working. I also wanted a relatively "safe/forgiving" plane. On top of all that I wanted a plane that looked/felt like a newer plane because although I'm used to beater rental planes I would not ask/expect my family and/or friends to do the same and not be worried about the condition of the plane. Lastly I like modern avionics and some glass panel stuff. Another factor is that I looked at Cherokee 6/Lance/Saratoga but although it would be comfortable it's just a lot of plane for 3 of us and especially when it's just me flying. Bonanza's are tempting but I only have 175 hours so insurance on retractable gear & higher performance airplanes is a BIG jump and again Bonanza would require extra maintenance per my local A&Ps. Tempting though!
Yes you're right we're not buying this plane to turn it around in 2/3 years. We hope this plane can fulfill the mission and is a good long term plane for us.
Yes you're right we're not buying this plane to turn it around in 2/3 years. We hope this plane can fulfill the mission and is a good long term plane for us.
Understood, although I disagree the Bonanza would be too advanced for you, that's your decision to make. If the plane is in good shape and you are going to keep it for several years getting good use out of it, it will serve you just fine. You're buying a plane at top of market, and if buying with intent of resale in a couple of years, it will be difficult to achieve any financial parity at sale. However, if you get good use out of the plane, that becomes a secondary issue because you're actually buying a plane for the use value, not resale, and this sounds like it's a very usable plane for you which leaves the deal at a reasonable value.
So if you buy this plane, fly the hell out of it and get your money's worth.
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Then as long as the plane checks out and the deal gets done, I think you'll be very happy with the plane because it does meet your mission requirements well for many years even if you add another kid, heck, you can fit 3 kids across that back seat for a few years as well.
I'm with you on modern avionics, once you see what they do for your situational awareness, it's really hard to go back.
netsurfr
Pre-takeoff checklist
I know what you mean. I rent a 172 with g1000 when I go on longer x-country trips and really like the situational awareness and safety features they bring. I also close to finishing my ifr and for single pilot ifr some of these advanced avionics (auto pilot that can do GPSS and glide slope intercept etc, helps with workload management.
No doubt about it, although I advise you do every third approach by hand, and hand fly at least 15-20 minutes of cruise every IFR flight to keep those skills from degrading, because I promise you the A/P will fail you at some point, never get complacent with it.