Does everything cause cancer?

[Pi1otguy]

This question has been bugging me for a while. Basically, for those not blessed to live in CA we basically have a "prop 65" warning on or near most things, substances, and areas that the state "knows" as a carcinogen.

Problem is that I work around computers and these signs have popped up in over 75% of the places I visit & work in. In an average day I spend over 75% of my time in or near an area or items with "prop 65" warnings. I understand the obvious ones like the gas station, crystal glassware, and any electronic item or any kind of computer cable/accessory. But now virtually any place that serves cooked food has the warning. Even roasting coffee makes it cancerous according to CA. Heck, even the receipts from some stores are supposedly carcinogenic.

Does virtually everything in modern life cause cancer? And when did this start?

 

[JeffDG]

This question has been bugging me for a while. Basically, for those not blessed to live in CA we basically have a "prop 65" warning on or near most things, substances, and areas that the state "knows" as a carcinogen.

Problem is that I work around computers and these signs have popped up in over 75% of the places I visit & work in. In an average day I spend over 75% of my time in or near an area or items with "prop 65" warnings. I understand the obvious ones like the gas station, crystal glassware, and any electronic item or any kind of computer cable/accessory. But now virtually any place that serves cooked food has the warning. Even roasting coffee makes it cancerous according to CA. Heck, even the receipts from some stores are supposedly carcinogenic.

Does virtually everything in modern life cause cancer? And when did this start?

Here's a great site that hi-lights the danger of DHMO and cancer risk:
http://www.dhmo.org/cancer.html

 

[tonycondon]

i think if California really actually knew what caused cancer we would have a lot less of it.

 

[mantakos]

Not everything, just the 700 or so compounds that California has determined to be carcinogenic, and anything that contains them.

Technically, "time" causes cancer, these 700 compounds just shorten the wait a bit.
-harry

 

[OffCenter]

After much study, I have concluded that life causes death.

 

[mantakos]

After much study, I have concluded that life causes death.

It's clocks that they should put a warning label on.
-harry

 

[Pi1otguy]

It's clocks that they should put a warning label on.
-harry

Ironically, the isle with clocks in local electronics store has a warning.

 

[ebacon]

Last night I saw the warning on a sheet of plywood. I was WTF, ain't nuthin' sacred no more?

 

[JOhnH]

Yes, everything causes cancer if you live long enough.

Actually though, my other theory is that water causes cancer. I have done extensive research over the years and one common thread that I have discovered is that EVERYBODY that ever developed ANY sort of cancer, has admitted to drinking water in some quantity for their whole life.

 

[Unbeliever]

This is one of those "for the children" and "sounded like a a good idea at the time" issues. Prop 65 was intended for the really nasty stuff and was meant to make people around those nasty chemicals fully aware.

However a cottage industry of lawyers sprang up where their sole purpose in life was to extract damage payouts from as many people as possible. As everyone knows, enough of something, even water, can cause cancer or reproductive harm.

So now we have a subversion of Prop 65. Instead of real warnings, we get a boy who cried wolf syndrome de-sensitizing us from the warning labels. Now if you buy a car new or used off a lot, there's a Prop 65 sticker on it.

http://westernfarmpress.com/government/25-years-later-proposition-65-boon-lawyers

--Carlos V.

 

[JeffDG]

Yes, everything causes cancer if you live long enough.

Actually though, my other theory is that water causes cancer. I have done extensive research over the years and one common thread that I have discovered is that EVERYBODY that ever developed ANY sort of cancer, has admitted to drinking water in some quantity for their whole life.

Water has been detected in biologically significant quantities in all tumors tested.

 

[steingar]

The truly amazing thing about us humans is that we all don't get cancer.

Our bodies are wonderful incubators. They provide our cells with all the nutrients they can eat and keep them at a nice toasty 37 degrees centigrade. They're kept in check by the constant need for growth accelerators, which if applied incorrectly are called oncogenes, and by brakes, or tumor suppressors. There are lots of both to keep our cells from overpopulating.

But if a cell can slip those bonds of fission, it is a good thing for the cell. Its progeny get more relative to the cells around it, so they win. The get more resources, and can spread their own genes that much farther. Thus any mutations that the cells get that increases their ability to reproduce will be advantageous to that cell's own microevolution.

Anything that causes DNA damage can accelerate carcinogenesis, which is thought to require several "hits", or DNA damage events that control the cell cycle machinery. That is why cancer is predominantly a disease of the old.

Lots of things cause DNA damage. UV radiation from the sun, X-ray radiation from nude-o-scopes, long chain aromatic molecules from many of our products, and many others. They are quite unavoidable. Fortunately, your cells have really good DNA repair systems. Even so, 60 or 70 years is a long time, and some of that damage will sneak through.

 

[tonycondon]

The truly amazing thing about us humans is that we all don't get cancer.

Our bodies are wonderful incubators. They provide our cells with all the nutrients they can eat and keep them at a nice toasty 37 degrees centigrade. They're kept in check by the constant need for growth accelerators, which if applied incorrectly are called oncogenes, and by brakes, or tumor suppressors. There are lots of both to keep our cells from overpopulating.

But if a cell can slip those bonds of fission, it is a good thing for the cell. Its progeny get more relative to the cells around it, so they win. The get more resources, and can spread their own genes that much farther. Thus any mutations that the cells get that increases their ability to reproduce will be advantageous to that cell's own microevolution.

Anything that causes DNA damage can accelerate carcinogenesis, which is thought to require several "hits", or DNA damage events that control the cell cycle machinery. That is why cancer is predominantly a disease of the old.

Lots of things cause DNA damage. UV radiation from the sun, X-ray radiation from nude-o-scopes, long chain aromatic molecules from many of our products, and many others. They are quite unavoidable. Fortunately, your cells have really good DNA repair systems. Even so, 60 or 70 years is a long time, and some of that damage will sneak through.

seems like most of the people i know who have died from cancer are a lot younger than 70. 40 seems more typical. my mom was 29. plenty of examples of little kids too

 

[JeffDG]

seems like most of the people i know who have died from cancer are a lot younger than 70. 40 seems more typical. my mom was 29. plenty of examples of little kids too

There could be some confirmation bias in that observation...someone who dies at 40 is unusual and more noteworthy. Same with kids, so you remember those cases more readily than someone who's 70.

 

[fgcason]

I think california causes cancer. Everytime I see anything new it has some damned "known to the state of california to cause cancer" on it. Based on the things I have and do and how I behave, I'm pretty sure I'm not even allowed into that country at this point.

 

[steingar]

seems like most of the people i know who have died from cancer are a lot younger than 70. 40 seems more typical. my mom was 29. plenty of examples of little kids too

Most people who die young carry inherited or novel tumor suppressor mutations, which are exceeding rare. It is possible your community supports the heightened level of consanguinity needed for overrepresentation of such rare alleles.

 

[tonycondon]

There could be some confirmation bias in that observation...someone who dies at 40 is unusual and more noteworthy. Same with kids, so you remember those cases more readily than someone who's 70.

quite possible, although some of the really old people could have very short cancer battles or even never get an actual diagnosis while a younger person is healthier otherwise and more interested in living longer so might fight longer.

 

[tonycondon]

Most people who die young carry inherited or novel tumor suppressor mutations, which are exceeding rare. It is possible your community supports the heightened level of consanguinity needed for overrepresentation of such rare alleles.

doubt there was genetics involved with my mom considering that her paternal grandparents lived into their 80's and maternal grandparents to 101 and 102. both her parents are still alive in their early 70's as well as aunts and uncles in their 70's and 80's.

could be "something in the water" though...

 

[Ted]

quite possible, although some of the really old people could have very short cancer battles or even never get an actual diagnosis while a younger person is healthier otherwise and more interested in living longer so might fight longer.

I think that is probably one of the bigger reasons. My grandfather died from prostate cancer at 72 - otherwise still healthy and in good shape. He had a diagnosis and a fight, but in the mid-80s, almost any cancer was a death sentence. My grandmother was in such bad shape when she died that we have no idea what it really was. And we didn't care. I was just happy to see her at peace instead of fighting a senseless fight.

My mom's battle with cancer (which was in the late-90s), was successful. I'm hoping by the time it's my turn, I can just take some pill that will cure it.

 

[steingar]

doubt there was genetics involved with my mom considering that her paternal grandparents lived into their 80's and maternal grandparents to 101 and 102. both her parents are still alive in their early 70's as well as aunts and uncles in their 70's and 80's.

could be "something in the water" though...

I hope you'll forgive a good natured jibe. I suspect the explanation that carcinogenesis among the young is somewhat more memorable than the old is correct. However, rates of carcinogenesis have seen increases in areas in and around man-made environmental catastrophes, like Chernoble, or Coeur d'Alene, ala Erin Brockovich. It is hard to believe that such could have occurred in your municipality and remained uncovered for so long.

 

[tonycondon]

I hope you'll forgive a good natured jibe. I suspect the explanation that carcinogenesis among the young is somewhat more memorable than the old is correct. However, rates of carcinogenesis have seen increases in areas in and around man-made environmental catastrophes, like Chernoble, or Coeur d'Alene, ala Erin Brockovich. It is hard to believe that such could have occurred in your municipality and remained uncovered for so long.

as far as I know there haven't been any major environmental catastrophes in my hometown. I'm not familiar with nationwide average cancer rates but in reality I'd bet that my little town of 7000 was probably about average. I'd say that it seemed like I have steadily known of 1 or 2 people at any given time who were suffering from the disease. But when its a close knit community it probably just makes it seem worse.

There was one girl last year who passed away after about (at least what seemed like) a 5 year battle with bone cancer. She didn't make it to High School graduation. She had gone from a wheelchair to running again on artificial legs paid for by community fundraisers but then it came back.

Our county of 10,000 raises ~100,000/year for the Relay for Life.

 

[Ted]

I'd say that it seemed like I have steadily known of 1 or 2 people at any given time who were suffering from the disease. But when its a close knit community it probably just makes it seem worse.

That sounds about like what I've known. Also, a close-knit community I would think would more likely have everyone know about what is happening to everyone else. Right now, I know two people personally who are battling cancer.

In New York, a lot of people would tend to hide it, for fear of it showing weakness or being embarrassed. Yet I still knew of at least one or two people at any given time.

 

[Ghery]

Yes, everything causes cancer if you live long enough.

Actually though, my other theory is that water causes cancer. I have done extensive research over the years and one common thread that I have discovered is that EVERYBODY that ever developed ANY sort of cancer, has admitted to drinking water in some quantity for their whole life.

Water has been detected in biologically significant quantities in all tumors tested.

Hence the earlier reference to www.dhmo.org. Check it out.

 

[Pi1otguy]

Last night I saw the warning on a sheet of plywood. I was WTF, ain't nuthin' sacred no more?

It contains wood dust, a known carcinogen (page 21). Have you ever known wood to be cut without creating dust?

I actually saw the warning on firewood. As in untreated, 100% natural pieces of dead tree.

But seriously, looking around at the age 50+ males I know well enough it looks like a >60% chance I'll get some kind of cancer between 55 & 70. Good news seems to be that those who caught it in early stages recovered without ongoing issues.

 

[denverpilot]

i think if California really actually knew what caused cancer we would have a lot less of it.

Hush. More laws and warnings fix things like cancer, don't ya know!?

That's apparently Californian's working theory anyway... and the ones that moved here in the 90s tried to bring that silliness with them, at great expense to those of us who knew better.

Highways need big automated warning signs to tell you it's slick when it's snowing around here now, as one example.

I can't imagine a world where we ever got by without those signs.

Oh wait, yes I can.

 

[Dan Thomas]

How much cancer could be attributed to the trash we eat? Just look at the list of stuff added to processed foods. Seems like there are more inorganic compounds in a cookie or a bucket of ice cream than there are organic bits.

And then there's MSG. Gives me whacking headaches. Gotta stay a long ways from it, yet it's in most soups and salty junk foods and even shows up in some sweet stuff. And Chinense food, in considerable quantities. What else is it doing to my body if it can cause tension headaches? Cancer?

Dan

 

[Pi1otguy]

Highways need big automated warning signs to tell you it's slick when it's snowing around here now, as one example.

I can't imagine a world where we ever got by without those signs.

Oh wait, yes I can.

Um, no we don't know the roads are slick without the signs. 1st few rains of the season always lead to tons of people taking corners at "dry road" speeds and crashing.

Besides, you guys haven't even approached our level of road safety. Do you have the police escort small groups of cars down the freeway when it snows?

 

[fgcason]

Highways need big automated warning signs to tell you it's slick when it's snowing around here now, as one example.

And of course the first thing that happens when it snows: They plow the high friction snow off the frictionless ice below it.
Snow, dangerous. Absolutely frictionless surface, safe.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

However, rates of carcinogenesis have seen increases in areas in and around man-made environmental catastrophes, like Chernoble, or Coeur d'Alene, ala Erin Brockovich.

What happened in Coeur d'Alene? I'd love to live there someday, but... Maybe not?

How much cancer could be attributed to the trash we eat? Just look at the list of stuff added to processed foods. Seems like there are more inorganic compounds in a cookie or a bucket of ice cream than there are organic bits.

Ugh. Yeah. It's disgusting. I remained blissfully ignorant until I hauled a load of what was essentially rock dust directly from a quarry to a food plant. When I asked the guy what they used it for (I was hoping it was something unrelated to the product) he said it was filler for the cookies. Elves are evil.

 

[DeeG]

What happened in Coeur d'Alene? I'd love to live there someday, but... Maybe not?

Only thing I can think of is mine tailings. There is a neat 72 mile long bike path (Trail of the Coeur d'Alenes) that was once the old rail bed, there are warning signs everywhere telling you to stay on the trail because of all the contamination in the soil; lead, mercury, etc.

And Cd'A is a way cool place to live.

 

[Gary F]

I actually saw the warning on firewood. As in untreated, 100% natural pieces of dead tree.

Did you take the warning seriously and use proper protective measures like wearing gloves and a particulate mask? Don't forget to continue to wear the mask while the wood is burning in your fireplace. I wish my state would protect me as much as California protects it's citizens.

 

[John Baker]

Cancer is a huge money making industry, employing millions of people in thousands of companies and agencies.

When I was a kid, I don't remember all this hoopla about cancer that we hear today, cancer is no longer just an illness, it has become a popular fad, bringing in billions of dollars to millions of people.

I pity the poor fool who discovers a complete cure for cancer, it's grown just to big of an enterprise to be allowed to simply stop. The cure will be one of the great accomplishments of mankind and it's discoverer is doomed to die in obscurity without more than just a few people benefiting from his or her efforts.

It is OK to prolong a cancer victims life, and even save a few lucky ones, but cure? No way would it be allowed on an large scale.

Alright, it's five o'clock in the morning, I woke up a t 4:30 worrying about the results of a bunch of tests and x-rays I've been going through for the last few days.

What if I've caught a dose of cancer? It's probably just a pinched nerve or something, but I'm only a year and a half away from seventy, so it could easily be the big C. I hate waiting, it makes me grumpy and I can't sleep.

Screw cancer.

John

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

It contains wood dust, a known carcinogen (page 21). Have you ever known wood to be cut without creating dust?

According to page 19, Males contain a chemical that is known to the State of California to cause cancer.

Do all the guys in California have a warning tattooed on them?

Our bodies are wonderful incubators. They provide our cells with all the nutrients they can eat and keep them at a nice toasty 37 degrees centigrade.

This is the REAL problem. The commie plot to subvert good old American units by replacing them with that pinko metric stuff.

 

[steingar]

How much cancer could be attributed to the trash we eat? Just look at the list of stuff added to processed foods. Seems like there are more inorganic compounds in a cookie or a bucket of ice cream than there are organic bits.

Anything put in food must be scrupulously free of carcinogenic tendencies. That's' what got Saccharin banned, and you would have need to imbibe superhuman quantities to be at all affected.

And then there's MSG. Gives me whacking headaches. Gotta stay a long ways from it, yet it's in most soups and salty junk foods and even shows up in some sweet stuff. And Chinense food, in considerable quantities. What else is it doing to my body if it can cause tension headaches? Cancer?

Dan

Monosodium glutamate is the sodium salt of glutamic acid, a major neurotransmitter used by nerve cells to talk to each other in the brain and nervous system. It is not at all carcinogenic, but does affect some people adversely. It is also the basis for the Umami taste, which television chefs will claim does not exist because they're imbeciles.

 

[steingar]

Cancer is a huge money making industry, employing millions of people in thousands of companies and agencies.

That's because it is now the number one cause of death in the Western world, where all the money is located.

When I was a kid, I don't remember all this hoopla about cancer that we hear today, cancer is no longer just an illness, it has become a popular fad, bringing in billions of dollars to millions of people.

No doubt when you were a kid people died from being eaten by dinosaurs. The folks I know who have cancer don't consider it a fad, they consider it a debilitating disease and would rather not have it. The doctors treating them would rather they not have it. The good news is the two I know right now will probably make it, which they would not have done when you were a kid.

I pity the poor fool who discovers a complete cure for cancer, it's grown just to big of an enterprise to be allowed to simply stop. The cure will be one of the great accomplishments of mankind and it's discoverer is doomed to die in obscurity without more than just a few people benefiting from his or her efforts.

I thought Judah Folkman (who came from my University) had it. Had he been right (a simple cure for all solid tumors), he would have received a Nobel prize and a big one from the US government. And not a single person would have lost a job. You have to die of something, so there will be something else to treat.

It is OK to prolong a cancer victims life, and even save a few lucky ones, but cure? No way would it be allowed on an large scale.

The difference between prolonging and curing can be quite small, especially with cancer. Unfortunately, in our culture we have a hard time just throwing up our hands and quitting.

Alright, it's five o'clock in the morning, I woke up a t 4:30 worrying about the results of a bunch of tests and x-rays I've been going through for the last few days.

What if I've caught a dose of cancer? It's probably just a pinched nerve or something, but I'm only a year and a half away from seventy, so it could easily be the big C. I hate waiting, it makes me grumpy and I can't sleep.

Screw cancer.

John

Probably just a pinched nerve, Mrs. Steingar has had a touch of that lately. I hope you don't get cancer. I hope nobody gets it. But hope all I want, it will affect many.

 

[fgcason]

That's because it is now the number one cause of death in the Western world, where all the money is located.

Oh goodie. Now money is the cause of cancer.

I wonder how long it'll take california to get the treasury department to start putting their logo, um, warning, on money.

 

[Gary F]

That's because it is now the number one cause of death in the Western world, where all the money is located.

I'm not so sure. Heart disease is number one, at least as recently as 2009.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm
Cancer probably has a much higher "misery factor". (I just invented that term). Heart disease often kills quickly and sometimes painlessly.

No doubt when you were a kid people died from being eaten by dinosaurs. The folks I know who have cancer don't consider it a fad, they consider it a debilitating disease and would rather not have it. The doctors treating them would rather they not have it. The good news is the two I know right now will probably make it, which they would not have done when you were a kid.
I thought Judah Folkman (who came from my University) had it. Had he been right (a simple cure for all solid tumors), he would have received a Nobel prize and a big one from the US government. And not a single person would have lost a job. You have to die of something, so there will be something else to treat.

A cure for cancer will be hard to get for a variety of reasons. Better treatments become available from time to time. Nobody is sitting on a cure for anything unless you also believe in the 300 mpg carburetor.

The difference between prolonging and curing can be quite small, especially with cancer. Unfortunately, in our culture we have a hard time just throwing up our hands and quitting.

That is often the case. Some patients and physicians do not know when to switch to the palliative strategy.

I hope you don't get cancer. I hope nobody gets it. But hope all I want, it will affect many.

Very true.

 

[John Baker]

A few years ago, my 91 year old aunt passed away in the San Diego Hospice. I went up to visit with her about every other day through her ordeal. (She had a very large family, the room was usually crowded) The hospice is a very well appointed place with paintings on the walls and nice views from the rooms, wide corridors and plenty of little nooks and crannies for people to sit and talk.

The first time I went up there to visit her, I saw what I expected to see, a whole lot of old people ending their days. Most were in their rooms with their loved ones standing, or sitting around them.

When I was leaving I saw a very pretty young lady, probably in her late teens or early twenties, sitting in a wheelchair talking with some people. I had been walking down the corridor talking with a woman who worked there, so I asked her why that young lady was here with all these old people. A hospice is usually the last stop, people do not leave a hospice alive, unless they are just visitors.

You guessed it, the kid had cancer. That kind of hit me hard, it just seemed so darn wrong. We expect old folks to die, they're supposed to, but not young people who should be having a whole lifetime ahead of them.

I hope they do discover a cure, and soon.

John

 

[steingar]

I hope they do discover a cure, and soon.

John

The problem is Cancer is not just one disease, but a constellation of many who's root cause is aberrant cell proliferation. The symptoms and treatment all very depending on the cells that are proliferating and the tissue in which they reside.

Cancer treatment is far better than even in my youth, many tumors that were previously terminal are now treatable. Many treatments have become far more benign. But there is not and never will be a cure all for all types of cancer.

 

[Bob Noel]

That is often the case. Some patients and physicians do not know when to switch to the palliative strategy.

In my case (with my mother and father), we didn't know about palliative care. We probably could have used palliative care for my mother far earlier in her Alzhiemer's.