Do you have personal minimums related to other pilots with whom you would ride?

Jhernandez04 said:
I don't foresee any pilot being able to take the controls from me unless I let them.
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I wouldn't want to be in the situation of dealing with an engine failure plus some moron trying to wrestle the controls away.
 
cheap weenie said:
I wouldn't want to be in the situation of dealing with an engine failure plus some moron trying to wrestle the controls away.
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Couple years ago the DPE I did my checkride with was doing a checkride, and they lost two blades of the prop. The plane remained in the student's control through the entire emergency landing. I've got no doubt he would have jumped in had he seen something dangerous developing, but as far as an experienced pilot flying with a low hour one, you won't find a better example than that flight. That's how it should be handled- the posts in here saying something to the effect of "I want the ability to take control at any time" make no sense. They're insinuating that even though you're a pilot, the fact that your logbook's emptier than theirs means that you're not equipped to deal with whatever might come up during the flight. Glad there's a lot more posts refuting that viewpoint. If there was a situation that I didn't feel able to handle as PIC, I wouldn't be flying without an instructor in the first place.
 
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cheap weenie said:
I wouldn't want to be in the situation of dealing with an engine failure plus some moron trying to wrestle the controls away.
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Not sure how your meaning that response towards my statement. But what im getting at is there isnt a pilot that can physically take the controls from me if I dont want them to.

With that said, if im unsure I have no problem relinquishing controls to a pilot more skilled than I. While I am PIC, they are my controls. I will fly no safer if you are with me or with an engine out. I always try and fly as safe as the situation allows.
 
That depends on several factors. If I'm familiar enough with the airplane that I'm confident I can prevent the pilot from killing me if I have to intervene that's enough right there unless I also suspect that said pilot wouldn't heed my verbal warnings or relinquish control if I asked "nicely" when I felt his continued operation was dangerous. Typically if I had concerns about the pilot's lack of experience or attitude toward safety I'd probably discuss said concerns prior to the flight and might decide to pass on passengering if there was serious disagreement.

In any case I'd want the pilot to agree beforehand that they would discontinue any course of action that either of us felt was unsafe. I've never met a pilot who wouldn't go along with that but if I did that would probably be enough for me to reject a flight with them. I'd also pay some attention to the condition of the airplane excluding cosmetics. Finally the expected challenges/difficulty of the flight would be a big factor for me. I have no concern riding along with most any reasonably competent pilot in an airplane they've flown (successfully) before on a simple daytime local or short XC flight in an area lacking terrain issues with good weather. Throw marginal or IFR conditions, mountains, night, etc and I'd get a little more fussy about who was piloting the airplane.

Beyond that, say going for a ride in a jet (I have no experience in any) or anything else I'd consider myself unlikely to be able to fly on my own I'd definitely consider any information I had about the pilot's experience and attitude toward safety before accepting a ride and if I harbored any suspicions WRT any insufficiency there I'd either inquire further or decline on the spot.

I must admit there was a time that I'd go with any pilot in any aircraft given the opportunity with nary a second thought WRT my safety but I've come to learn that all pilots are not created equal.

For a case in point, a couple years ago a local pilot purchased a derelict BE-18 (Radial engine Twin Beech) that had been sitting at my home base for several years. The pilot (sans A&P) performed some maintenance work on the plane and got the engines running so he could fly it to a different nearby airport where he had a hanger. He obtained a "ferry permit" but didn't have a licensed mechanic sign off the airplane for the flight as required by the permit. He had drained an estimated "several gallons" of water from the fuel tanks before taking off on this illegal flight and when he raised the tail during the takeoff roll both engines began stumbling, belching smoke etc according to witnesses. But rather than abort he continued the takeoff and got several hundred feet AGL before he lost all power. Shortly after that he crashed into a barn under the downwind leg and the ensuing fireball killed all on board. And most sadly he wasn't the only one in the airplane even though the ferry permit dictated "essential crew only".

The sole passenger was a nice young woman student pilot who had competed with a friend of mine in a recent "Power Puff Derby" as a navigator. She happened to be in the FBO lounge when the BE-18 pilot asked if anyone wanted to go for a "ride" and accepted the offer without a second thought. My friend who was a fairly experienced albeit young pilot probably would have accompanied the two had she been present but fortunately she had left earlier. And I can see my self accepting a ride under the same circumstances when I was a student or newly minted PP as I was eager to learn all I could about any airplane (still am) and getting to fly right seat in a big old twin would have been very attractive.

Did I mention that this pilot had zero time in BE-18s and IIRC not much multi time at all and certainly no recent (i.e. past year) AMEL time? Would that have caused me to bail if I learned that as a student pilot? Probably not but it would certainly be a big red flag today, same for the fact that this was the first time the airplane was airborne in several years but I don't know if the young woman was aware of either situation or that she would have been concerned if she did.
SixPapaCharlie said:
I sort of realized that I am very new to flying and as of late have just been flying all over creation with lots of new pilots. My CFI is churning them out.


Bottom line, brand new pilots working on their first logbook can be (and often are) just as safe as the pilot who's "been flying since forever" if they have the right attitude and understanding of their own limitations.

And I'm happy to say I've had the honor of being the first passenger for one or two new pilots and had no fears on those flights.

Anytime someone gets their ticket, we trade rides and whatnot.

My wife asked "So you think it is safe to get in a plane with a brand new pilot?"

I am a brand new pilot so it never occurred to me to question it.

Those of you that have been around the block, Do you have personal rules related to at what point you will get in a plane with a pilot?
Certain number of hours, months, etc?

This isn't directed at anyone on POA. I have flown with a few of you. In my local area, I have gone up with some friends 5-10 hours post checkride.
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Jhernandez04 said:
Not sure how your meaning that response towards my statement. But what im getting at is there isnt a pilot that can physically take the controls from me if I dont want them to.
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My point is that I don't want to be finding out just how strong the other guy is at a critical point. If I'm dealing with an engine failure (for example), I don't need to be adding "overpower passenger" to the regular checklist.
 
cheap weenie said:
My point is that I don't want to be finding out just how strong the other guy is at a critical point. If I'm dealing with an engine failure (for example), I don't need to be adding "overpower passenger" to the regular checklist.
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The finding out process is pretty simple when you see me. I get your point. But it wouldn't be YOU dealing with the engine out if your riding along because your not PIC. You are a passenger, if the PIC decides he cannot handle the situation then by all means assume control.

But just because its your life and you have more hours of flight time than I do does that give you the right to take over the controls just because you think you can do better.

Afterall, if PIC is a rule then isnt it to be respected?


If theres an emergency situation in my plane and I have (lets say Bryan; 6PC) in my plane. Of course the situation would be tense and actions would need to be expedited but I would explain as clear & calm as I could that I will handle the flying portion and if he wants to help he can handle the communications but that the controls are mine. All my time is in my airplane so it stands to reason I would be the best choice in terms of PIC unless im just a basket case.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
The finding out process is pretty simple when you see me. I get your point. But it wouldn't be YOU dealing with the engine out if your riding along because your not PIC. You are a passenger, if the PIC decides he cannot handle the situation then by all means assume control.

But just because its your life and you have more hours of flight time than I do does that give you the right to take over the controls just because you think you can do better.

Afterall, if PIC is a rule then isnt it to be respected?
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If you review my posts you'll see that they were made from the perspective of me as PIC in my airplane. Not a passenger. Thus, me, PIC, in a wrestling match with the passenger.
 
cheap weenie said:
If you review my posts you'll see that they were made from the perspective of me as PIC in my airplane. Not a passenger. Thus, me, PIC, in a wrestling match with the passenger.
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My fault for speed reading.

I wouldnt wrestle the controls very long as a short left cross to the lower mandible should persuade the individual to lose conciousness. lol
 
As long as they are appropriately rated and a ground conversation reveals general good judgement, I'll go as a front-seat pax with just about any pilot day vfr.

For night flying, imc, backseat pax, or acro: I have to have flown with them in a non-challenging environment first.

As far as PIC duties: if I'm a pax and they lock up when something goes wrong OR they *do* something that puts us in immediate danger for life & limb- I'll reach for the controls; and then we will land at the nearest flat piece of ground. But that's a very high bar to meet, so generally I'll be sitting there enjoying the ride or working the radios if asked.
 
Generally, I don't like to fly with others - except with my husband... :D But then I don't like driving with somebody else and I am a terrible passenger in a car. I guess it would be even worse in a plane.

If I ever have to fly with someone else, I definitely have to know that person well. Hours flown is rather not something I make my decision on. We met a lot of pilots back in Germany who had a lot of hours - but only in the direct vicinity of their home airport / airfield. The general attitude, flying experience in general or handling of safety related topics would be main factors. And a local VFR flight at a normal day has to come first, before I would go long distances or even in MVFR, IFR or night...

A person, who asks a CFI who comes back with a plan, if the CFI thinks there is enough fuel in the plane and when the CFI says 'yes', takes off without checking the available fuel for the duration of his flight (he didn't tell the CFI for how long he wants to fly), is definitely not someone I am going to fly with. Agreed, stupidity on both sides (other pilot and CFI) but hey, I don't want to go down just because there is no fuel left...:eek:
 
Hadn't given much thought to riding backseat. I thnk I prefer to be in the frontseat in a plane now even as pax.

I rode in the backseat with a new PPL in an RV and kept thnking I got no throttle or rudder pedals back here. If something happens to him, I have to just fly around until this runs out of fuel and then make a deadstick landing
 
gismo said:
That depends on several factors. If I'm familiar enough with the airplane that I'm confident I can prevent the pilot from killing me if I have to intervene that's enough right there unless I also suspect that said pilot wouldn't heed my verbal warnings or relinquish control if I asked "nicely" when I felt his continued operation was dangerous. Typically if I had concerns about the pilot's lack of experience or attitude toward safety I'd probably discuss said concerns prior to the flight and might decide to pass on passengering if there was serious disagreement.

In any case I'd want the pilot to agree beforehand that they would discontinue any course of action that either of us felt was unsafe. I've never met a pilot who wouldn't go along with that but if I did that would probably be enough for me to reject a flight with them. I'd also pay some attention to the condition of the airplane excluding cosmetics. Finally the expected challenges/difficulty of the flight would be a big factor for me. I have no concern riding along with most any reasonably competent pilot in an airplane they've flown (successfully) before on a simple daytime local or short XC flight in an area lacking terrain issues with good weather. Throw marginal or IFR conditions, mountains, night, etc and I'd get a little more fussy about who was piloting the airplane.

Beyond that, say going for a ride in a jet (I have no experience in any) or anything else I'd consider myself unlikely to be able to fly on my own I'd definitely consider any information I had about the pilot's experience and attitude toward safety before accepting a ride and if I harbored any suspicions WRT any insufficiency there I'd either inquire further or decline on the spot.

I must admit there was a time that I'd go with any pilot in any aircraft given the opportunity with nary a second thought WRT my safety but I've come to learn that all pilots are not created equal.

For a case in point, a couple years ago a local pilot purchased a derelict BE-18 (Radial engine Twin Beech) that had been sitting at my home base for several years. The pilot (sans A&P) performed some maintenance work on the plane and got the engines running so he could fly it to a different nearby airport where he had a hanger. He obtained a "ferry permit" but didn't have a licensed mechanic sign off the airplane for the flight as required by the permit. He had drained an estimated "several gallons" of water from the fuel tanks before taking off on this illegal flight and when he raised the tail during the takeoff roll both engines began stumbling, belching smoke etc according to witnesses. But rather than abort he continued the takeoff and got several hundred feet AGL before he lost all power. Shortly after that he crashed into a barn under the downwind leg and the ensuing fireball killed all on board. And most sadly he wasn't the only one in the airplane even though the ferry permit dictated "essential crew only".

The sole passenger was a nice young woman student pilot who had competed with a friend of mine in a recent "Power Puff Derby" as a navigator. She happened to be in the FBO lounge when the BE-18 pilot asked if anyone wanted to go for a "ride" and accepted the offer without a second thought. My friend who was a fairly experienced albeit young pilot probably would have accompanied the two had she been present but fortunately she had left earlier. And I can see my self accepting a ride under the same circumstances when I was a student or newly minted PP as I was eager to learn all I could about any airplane (still am) and getting to fly right seat in a big old twin would have been very attractive.

Did I mention that this pilot had zero time in BE-18s and IIRC not much multi time at all and certainly no recent (i.e. past year) AMEL time? Would that have caused me to bail if I learned that as a student pilot? Probably not but it would certainly be a big red flag today, same for the fact that this was the first time the airplane was airborne in several years but I don't know if the young woman was aware of either situation or that she would have been concerned if she did.
SixPapaCharlie said:
I sort of realized that I am very new to flying and as of late have just been flying all over creation with lots of new pilots. My CFI is churning them out.


Bottom line, brand new pilots working on their first logbook can be (and often are) just as safe as the pilot who's "been flying since forever" if they have the right attitude and understanding of their own limitations.

And I'm happy to say I've had the honor of being the first passenger for one or two new pilots and had no fears on those flights.
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A Beech 18 ride is more likely to end badly than in most light airplanes. They are all old, it takes a briefcase full of 50 dollar bills and a knowledgeable mechanic to maintain one, and an experienced and current pilot fly it. There are not very many pilots (and I know a few) with whom I'd be comfortable getting in the back of the twin Beech while they were at the controls. Given the situation above: aircraft sitting derelict for some time, a shade-tree, untrained mechanic to bring it back to life, and a loose nut in the hero chair, the loss of all aboard was tragic but predictable. I'm sorry for your loss.
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j1b3h0 said:
A Beech 18 ride is more likely to end badly than in most light airplanes. They are all old, it takes a briefcase full of 50 dollar bills and a knowledgeable mechanic to maintain one, and an experienced and current pilot fly it. There are not very many pilots (and I know a few) with whom I'd be comfortable getting in the back of the twin Beech while they were at the controls. Given the situation above: aircraft sitting derelict for some time, a shade-tree, untrained mechanic to bring it back to life, and a loose nut in the hero chair, the loss of all aboard was tragic but predictable. I'm sorry for your loss.
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Definitely an accident waiting to happen. My point in the story was that to a low time or student pilot, an opportunity to go flying in almost anything that appears to be airworthy might be hard to turn down. Certainly nothing I'd learned during pilot training gave me any knowledge about choosing who not to fly with.
 
Similar issues here. I went up with a friend who had his license for about 6 months (1yr for me at the time). All was okay until we approached a non-towered airport to practice pattern work. I was right seat and he was PIC…sadly that didn't stop me from getting on him about stuff or questioning why he was setting up certain ways as we came close to the airport before getting in the pattern. Long story short - set up some expectations before the ride and take a few short rides locally with them before getting in the plane for a longer trip. Butting heads can cause some high UN-necessary stress in the cockpit.
www.pilotjournalnotebook.com
 
DavidWhite said:
There are pilots who I have flown with that have 50 hours and I felt perfectly safe. There are pilots I have flown with who had 5,000 hours and I was terrified.

Not flying with someone because they don't have x amount of hours is kinda silly. Assuming someone is safe because they have whatever amount of hours you deem acceptable is equally silly.
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There is a reason you are now a captain! :lol:


:yes:
 
divebomber said:
Similar issues here. I went up with a friend who had his license for about 6 months (1yr for me at the time). All was okay until we approached a non-towered airport to practice pattern work. I was right seat and he was PIC…sadly that didn't stop me from getting on him about stuff or questioning why he was setting up certain ways as we came close to the airport before getting in the pattern. Long story short - set up some expectations before the ride and take a few short rides locally with them before getting in the plane for a longer trip. Butting heads can cause some high UN-necessary stress in the cockpit.
www.pilotjournalnotebook.com
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Your marketing that notebook kinda hard? Whats your affiliation with them?

Might wanna get on the vendors list since every post you put this link inside it.
 
Geico266 said:
There is a reason you are now a captain! :lol:


:yes:
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My first solo charter this afternoon I had one of the passengers ask me if I was "old enough to fly this thing" my answer of "barely" solicited a groan and a sigh.
 
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My only personal minimum is that they don't fart while in-flight.:nono:

José
 
DavidWhite said:
My first solo charter this afternoon I had one of the passengers ask me if I was "old enough to fly this thing" my answer of "barely" solicited a groan and a sigh.
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I bet you'll get that more than a few times. Just keep your professional attitude going and word will travel about you in a good way. Godspeed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
To answer e OP's question, I don't have personal minimums when it comes to flying with others. If the pilot flying shows me he or she has disregard for checklist usage or following regs, I'm asking to return to the ramp.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Not sure how your meaning that response towards my statement. But what im getting at is there isnt a pilot that can physically take the controls from me if I dont want them to.
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challenge-accepted.jpg


I will need to have you sign a hold harmless agreement prior to the flight however.
 
DavidWhite said:
My first solo charter this afternoon I had one of the passengers ask me if I was "old enough to fly this thing" my answer of "barely" solicited a groan and a sigh.
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Did you fly with your shoes on or off and did the pax know?

Best wishes David, you'll do well.
 
Most of the stuff sitting on the ramps today is 40-50 years old. Maintained well? Maybe. Put this together with a 100 hour ppl and I'll stick with a pilot I know well that has at least a couple of thousand hours, with quite a few in type. Anyone remember Jeff ethyl? Very few hours in type. Or the doctor recently in the MU2? Or how about the idiot in the arrow star buzzing his buddy recently? Or the fellow flying out of a local airport a few years back, taking 3 buddy's to a car race down south with his new IFR rating. Lost it IFR ten minutes into the flight, plowed into the backyard of a house killing all four. I used to fly in an MU2 with a good friend with 14000 hours total and many hours in an MU 2 including the proper schools. He was a master of the airplane and I felt perfectly safe.
 
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Clark1961 said:
Did you fly with your shoes on or off and did the pax know?

Best wishes David, you'll do well.
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Boots on, it's too muddy to take them off. If I'm gonna crash, I want to be wearing shoes too.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I will need your signature also.
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I knew you were a big guy, but I've taken down bigger. Oh, and I carry, so there's that. :rofl: And there's much better options than a left cross in a plane.
 
write-stuff said:
I'll fly with anyone as long as they agree in advance that if I say "My airplane" it IS my airplane.
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This. I'll ride with anyone as long as they know I will take the airplane if I have felt unsafe.
 
EdFred said:
I knew you were a big guy, but I've taken down bigger. Oh, and I carry, so there's that. :rofl: And there's much better options than a left cross in a plane.
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Silly Ed, I may or may not carry a Springfield XDM .45 ACP that holds 15.

But we're talking physically as in no extension of ourselves with weapons. And you may have taken down bigger but I promise you, you haven't taken down tougher ;)

Let's fly -_-
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Silly Ed, I may or may not carry a Springfield XDM .45 ACP that holds 15.

But we're talking physically as in no extension of ourselves with weapons. And you may have taken down bigger but I promise you, you haven't taken down tougher ;)

Let's fly -_-
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Everyone thinks they are tough (including me), until they start crying. :rofl:

My favorite times instructing hand to hand were when the new cops would come into class, and I got to say "OK, detain me," and they end up on the floor. "Oh you mean they didn't prepare you for that with your academy training?" Always a good time.

But yeah, lets absolutely go fly.
 
EdFred said:
Everyone thinks they are tough (including me), until they start crying. :rofl:

My favorite times instructing hand to hand were when the new cops would come into class, and I got to say "OK, detain me," and they end up on the floor. "Oh you mean they didn't prepare you for that with your academy training?" Always a good time.

But yeah, lets absolutely go fly.
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I remember when I was in highschool back in 05' during wrestling practice, the Ardmore Police Department was sharing mats with the team so they could learn how to disarm a gunman or someone weilding a a knife + hand to hand combat. It was fun because I picked up on a lot of their training and even wrestled 2 of there toughest cops, both SWAT members. We weren't throwing blows (lucky for them haha) but we did get very physical and each one of them was subdued by me in less then 20 seconds. At that time I was 18 and 275lbs with basically no training in martial arts at all, just some boxing and wrestling.

I can handle myself pretty good nowadays. I'd like to think if I was in the cockpit and someone tried to pull a concealed weapon I would be able to spot it as soon as they reached for it because 1. you have to lift your shirt, which I would recognize as an attempt to pull your firearm 2. 90% are right handers they would have to cross their body to get me sighted in.

All of which would take time, not much by a pro but how many of us actually are professional gun handlers (we just think we are.) I wouldn't have to pull shirt nor cross my body as I can use both hands.

So, Ed... before we fly you'll have to hand the piece over :yes:
 
So how does everyone feel about getting in a car, where there are no dual controls, with someone else driving? :D
 
Everskyward said:
So how does everyone feel about getting in a car, where there are no dual controls, with someone else driving? :D
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typically scares the hell out of me, didn't you see my white knuckles? :D
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I remember when I was in highschool back in 05' during wrestling practice, the Ardmore Police Department was sharing mats with the team so they could learn how to disarm a gunman or someone weilding a a knife + hand to hand combat. It was fun because I picked up on a lot of their training and even wrestled 2 of there toughest cops, both SWAT members. We weren't throwing blows (lucky for them haha) but we did get very physical and each one of them was subdued by me in less then 20 seconds. At that time I was 18 and 275lbs with basically no training in martial arts at all, just some boxing and wrestling.

I can handle myself pretty good nowadays. I'd like to think if I was in the cockpit and someone tried to pull a concealed weapon I would be able to spot it as soon as they reached for it because 1. you have to lift your shirt, which I would recognize as an attempt to pull your firearm 2. 90% are right handers they would have to cross their body to get me sighted in.

All of which would take time, not much by a pro but how many of us actually are professional gun handlers (we just think we are.) I wouldn't have to pull shirt nor cross my body as I can use both hands.

So, Ed... before we fly you'll have to hand the piece over :yes:
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That's what the shoulder holster is for. :eek:
 
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