Do you buy aopa's pitch?

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MichiPilot

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MichiPilot
I've been watching some of this latest "you can fly" thing which seems to be a program for old (rusty) pilots, flying clubs, and high schools. https://youcanfly.aopa.org

This seems like a lot of wasted money to me -- I guess I can see the rusty pilot thing to get people who haven't flown back flying...but how can aopa actually impact anything with flying clubs? Are they putting up some money? Even more so with the high schools...so many orgs have been trying to do this and the school's hands are tied with teacher certifications. I laugh every time they go to a privately funded multi-million dollar charter school and say the program is a success. It'll never see the light of day in public schools.

But maybe (hopefully) I'm wrong?
 
They suckered everyone into donating for the third class medical reform and now have to spend some of that money so they appear to be helping pilots.
 
AOPA is in business to help AOPA, and big aviation. In that order.
If they were here to help us, they wouldn't be pushing the latest revamping of old iron and painting it a hideous color. They wouldn't be wasting their time on medical reform.
If you want to help pilots, then do away with the entire FAA program for creating pilots and start over.
Everyone becomes a Sport Pilot. Basic airman-ship, and navigation skills. Fly, have fun. Get experience.
Then everything else is an add-on rating.
Want to fly something heavier, get a increase in your weight rating, want to fly at night, get a night rating. There is nothing in flying can't be improved with a more rational training methodology.
Just my $.02.
 
The entire industry is targeting the wrong demographic in my opinion. Examples: Young Eagles, 8-17.. Yes it has worked for some but I suspect it's very likely that 90% of those would have joined aviation regardless of young eagles. Why are they going after 8-14 year olds who can't even legally get their license? The re-imagined airplanes.. I mean really? If you can afford a $150,000.00 172 there are a lot better options out there. $130,000.00 152??? That's just nuts when there are so many more capable light sport planes for the same or less money.

When is someone going to target the 21-40 crowd? The people who have the money and maturity to take lessons and take them serious. The ones who have a job and can decide to spend 35k on a new car or on a used airplane.

Of course this is just my opinion and I have been known to be wrong before..
 
what the shepherd said. also go to "guide star" and look at their financials aopa runs a close 2nd to the NRA for being the biggest pig in the pen. canceled my membership to both after around 35 years each.
 
Grum.Man said:
The entire industry is targeting the wrong demographic in my opinion. Examples: Young Eagles, 8-17.. Yes it has worked for some but I suspect it's very likely that 90% of those would have joined aviation regardless of young eagles. Why are they going after 8-14 year olds who can't even legally get their license? The re-imagined airplanes.. I mean really? If you can afford a $150,000.00 172 there are a lot better options out there. $130,000.00 152??? That's just nuts when there are so many more capable light sport planes for the same or less money.

When is someone going to target the 21-40 crowd? The people who have the money and maturity to take lessons and take them serious. The ones who have a job and can decide to spend 35k on a new car or on a used airplane.

Of course this is just my opinion and I have been known to be wrong before..
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That.

I CFIed some young kids with rich parents, fracking waste of time, talked to the parents and also kicked them to other CFIs who were more concerned with the Hobbs than I.
 
I don't see anything wrong with the Rusty Pilot or Flying Club programs at all. The main thing they help with regarding flying clubs is being a catalyst/liaison. They help with the legal contracts, help establish a list of people who are interested in a flying club in a given location, and can help navigate the financial aspects/planning. Flying clubs are not nearly as prevalent as they probably should be, and they are making an effort to get the 21-40yr old crowd who doesn't have the cash to throw down on a $50-100K aircraft. There are plenty of people out there who would seriously entertain a flying club, but don't want to have to orchestrate the entire thing themselves.

Look, I fully understand that some people don't agree with what AOPA does with the funds, or the services they do/don't provide. Fine. I'm even okay with being skeptical of their true effectiveness on the lobbying front. However, I seriously doubt things like the 3rd class medical would have ever passed without them. Same thing with the PBORs. They do a lot of favorable things for GA that no other entity has been able to do, simply because they don't have the clout in D.C. (EAA, etc.) It's something like $40/yr to be a member and have access to some useful stuff, not exactly a steep price. I still read the magazine just to keep myself involved from an educational standpoint, even if the material gets regurgitated over the years. They rarely send out all of the mailers anymore, at least not to me. Sure, they have tons of cash sitting in the bank, but at least they are liquid in their assets.

Just my .02
 
It's how modern politics work. You either donate to some huge organization that abuses a lot of the donations but has enough $ to be heard.... or you don't get heard.

Sure every now and then we all get behind something and they have to listen but that's pretty rare and the aviation community is such a small portion of the voting public that it's not gonna happen that way.
 
sooner ,the 3rd class med thing whatever it turns out to be is not what you think it is. its a joke and we have been duped.
 
SoonerAviator said:
... clout in D.C. ...
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I dropped my AOPA membership several years ago in disgust at their financial practices*. But I have always wondered how much "clout" they actually have. Sure, the puff pieces in the magazine have them thumping their chests over supposed victories but that is to be expected. I would be interested in an independent assessment. With only a few hundred thousand members and a budget that doesn't come close to what a congressman costs, it's hard to believe in "clout" on their say-so.

*I just looked at their 2014 tax return on guidestar.org (the latest available) and see that the cash hoard is still at $70M (about twice annual revenue -- ridiculous), they paid Craig Fuller $500K, and are losing members at around 5% per year. Interestingly, I looked on the AOPA web site and could find no mention of the number of members they have. Ditto the tax returns - no member count. Maybe someone else's eyes are sharper than mine.
 
that guidstar is something ,i saved a ton of $
 
Grum.Man said:
The entire industry is targeting the wrong demographic in my opinion. Examples: Young Eagles, 8-17.. Yes it has worked for some but I suspect it's very likely that 90% of those would have joined aviation regardless of young eagles. Why are they going after 8-14 year olds who can't even legally get their license? The re-imagined airplanes.. I mean really? If you can afford a $150,000.00 172 there are a lot better options out there. $130,000.00 152??? That's just nuts when there are so many more capable light sport planes for the same or less money.

When is someone going to target the 21-40 crowd? The people who have the money and maturity to take lessons and take them serious. The ones who have a job and can decide to spend 35k on a new car or on a used airplane.

Of course this is just my opinion and I have been known to be wrong before..
Click to expand...
If you think that the 8-17 Young Eagles age group would have joined aviation regardless, you can definitely make the argument that the 21-40 age group would have done so as well. I think the intent in getting young people involved is not that they are going to run out and take lessons immediately, but it plants a seed for later.

I agree about the give-away airplanes being a waste of money...
 
Seems most times the winner has to sell the plane to pay the taxes.....?
 
Walboy said:
... All I can say is the rusty pilot seminar at the Prescott Fly In was well attended. ...
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Unfortunately, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

Everskyward said:
... I agree about the give-away airplanes being a waste of money...
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You miss the point. They are playtoys for the staff. They get to fly around the country getting wined and dined by vendors and being told how wise and wonderful they are. Then they get a new toy to play with for a while. If you're an employee, what's not to like?
 
airdale said:
You miss the point. They are playtoys for the staff. They get to fly around the country getting wined and dined by vendors and being told how wise and wonderful they are. Then they get a new toy to play with for a while. If you're an employee, what's not to like?
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I may be a cynic about some things but I'm not enough of one to agree with you about this. I think they use the airplane as a way to get people to join or renew. Your membership is like a raffle ticket. The problem is that the airplane may not be a good match for the person who wins it, plus they need to pay taxes, hangar, insurance, maintenance, etc. It becomes an unanticipated expense.
 
Everskyward said:
I may be a cynic about some things but I'm not enough of one to agree with you about this. I think they use the airplane as a way to get people to join or renew. Your membership is like a raffle ticket. The problem is that the airplane may not be a good match for the person who wins it, plus they need to pay taxes, hangar, insurance, maintenance, etc. It becomes an unanticipated expense.
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+1 agreed.

Of course most people sell the plane right away. The plane has relatively more value the day its delivered than any other time, so it makes sense to sell it right away while there's still a buzz about it to maximize your winnings.
 
airdale said:
Unfortunately, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

You miss the point. They are playtoys for the staff. They get to fly around the country getting wined and dined by vendors and being told how wise and wonderful they are. Then they get a new toy to play with for a while. If you're an employee, what's not to like?
Click to expand...
As exciting as it may seem to some of us to galavant around the country in a Cessna 152, it's still just a job, and standing around at Oshkosh and other shows for days at a time answering silly question from geezers who love to talk gets really old too, particularly when your real work is still piling up.

It's also worth noting that only a few folks from the publication staff get to fly the plane, and the amount they get wined and dined is surprisingly low. Garmin and the like aren't buying them steak dinners; they buy plenty of ad space as it is.
 
hotprops said:
sooner ,the 3rd class med thing whatever it turns out to be is not what you think it is. its a joke and we have been duped.
Click to expand...

Lol, self-certifying for your 3rd class medical is "being duped?" It doesn't mean anything to me at this point because I have no issues passing any medical exam at the moment, but I'm not going to pretend it has no value for the pilot population as a whole.


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airdale said:
I dropped my AOPA membership several years ago in disgust at their financial practices*. But I have always wondered how much "clout" they actually have. Sure, the puff pieces in the magazine have them thumping their chests over supposed victories but that is to be expected. I would be interested in an independent assessment. With only a few hundred thousand members and a budget that doesn't come close to what a congressman costs, it's hard to believe in "clout" on their say-so.
Click to expand...

The issue with trying to measure "clout" is that we don't have anything to compare against. The real question is: what would GA look like without their clout? The answer could be as varied as "the same" or "worse than Europe". You get to decide whether a $40 membership fee (to them or any aviation group) is worth finding out the answer to that question.


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Shepherd said:
Everyone becomes a Sport Pilot.
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Don't like. I'm never training a sport pilot again. I don't feel comfortable sending people off into the wild blue yonder after teaching them so little.
 
sooner.. you need to do some study .self certify were did you dream that up. you are going to have to have a doctor {your gp} sign a form, good luck .you missed a few good threads on this site . LSA is self cert not the proposed CLASS 3
 
Low hanging fruit. It's easier to get people into active flying if they've been active pilots before. Boost the numbers of active pilots and it increases both the attractiveness of the activity and gives you political clout. And it hopefully results in more money that can be used to train novices.
 
AOPA hits about average for me; they provide some good resources, beat the drum, do some real good. Not/not always aligned with my views, but they are probably the loudest voice for GA, they know the players, keep pressing. . .IRT to effectiveness, I dunno. . .unless/until I have a few million to throw at one or both political parties, it's certain they'll have more influence than me. . .
 
The elephant in the room is that the old, retired, rusty or whatever you want yo call them quit flying for a reason. Mostly because it is so stupidly expensive. There is a large percentage of ga pilots like myself who could spend all our time and money flying or we could take family vacations, support other hobbies, go fishing etc etc etc.
it seems that the answer in aviation is always to pour more money in it, more training, more instruments, more time, more education, more more more.
Nobody cares to fight that battle, when it costs four hundred dollars of a three foot wire harness for a landing light, two thousand dollars for a throttle cable and so on. It is no wonder the masses are not flocking to be private pilots. When I tell people how much it is going to cost for an engine for my plane, they think I am kidding. It is just unimaginable that a normal working class family will want yo shell out thirty or forty grand for a friggin engine.
When the AOPA starts to see that side of it then maybe I will pay them some money, but until then they can have their glass panel turbo prop crowd and leave me alone. Oh, and their stupid free hats are garbage.
 
Went to a presentation sponsored by AOPA about flying clubs and rusty pilot programs,was very informative. Another small step in trying to bring the pilot ranks up.
 
hotprops said:
sooner.. you need to do some study .self certify were did you dream that up. you are going to have to have a doctor {your gp} sign a form, good luck .you missed a few good threads on this site . LSA is self cert not the proposed CLASS 3
Click to expand...

Either way, it's better than the system we had before. It was noted from several sources that the DL-certification method was blocked by the FAA/Congress critters several times, and the one-time visit to the physician with the questionnaire was the best compromise. Again, if you think there is another entity that could have done better, let it be known.


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Acrodustertoo said:
The elephant in the room is that the old, retired, rusty or whatever you want yo call them quit flying for a reason. Mostly because it is so stupidly expensive. There is a large percentage of ga pilots like myself who could spend all our time and money flying or we could take family vacations, support other hobbies, go fishing etc etc etc.
it seems that the answer in aviation is always to pour more money in it, more training, more instruments, more time, more education, more more more.
Nobody cares to fight that battle, when it costs four hundred dollars of a three foot wire harness for a landing light, two thousand dollars for a throttle cable and so on. It is no wonder the masses are not flocking to be private pilots. When I tell people how much it is going to cost for an engine for my plane, they think I am kidding. It is just unimaginable that a normal working class family will want yo shell out thirty or forty grand for a friggin engine.
When the AOPA starts to see that side of it then maybe I will pay them some money, but until then they can have their glass panel turbo prop crowd and leave me alone. Oh, and their stupid free hats are garbage.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree that the cost of maintaining/repairing/flying certified aircraft is outrageous. Doing something about that should be their current top priority. I doubt any other flying organization but AOPA has the clout to get an certified owner-maintained category created. Even if they did manage to get it passed into legislation, there would still be tons of people claiming that nothing they do is good enough.


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sooner.. 3 points. 1 no doctor in his right mind will sign the checklist as now written. this is info given to me by them. one is a brother and one a neighbor.2. insurance company's will be on this like rice, and will exclude defense coverage in there contracts for giving this service. i still serve on the bod of one very large malpractice ins co it will be an exclusion to the policy or will have a very large additional premium 3.find all the threads that our Dr Chien has spoke to this issue, and resolve what he says to your own understanding . 4.learn more before you post you make pilots look foolish.
 
hotprops said:
sooner.. 3 points. 1 no doctor in his right mind will sign the checklist as now written. this is info given to me by them. one is a brother and one a neighbor.2. insurance company's will be on this like rice, and will exclude defense coverage in there contracts for giving this service. i still serve on the bod of one very large malpractice ins co it will be an exclusion to the policy or will have a very large additional premium 3.find all the threads that our Dr Chien has spoke to this issue, and resolve what he says to your own understanding . 4.learn more before you post you make pilots look foolish.
Click to expand...

1. Your neighbor and brother don't speak for all medical professionals. Two data points is not enough to draw a conclusion.
2. I have read other opinions that said the insurance companies won't care as long as the pilot abides by the regulations as written. So who's right? Does that mean that no doctor will risk it, or that they'll simply charge a fee for the exam to cover the "exclusion premium"? Not really much of a point you made there, again not enough data to make a conclusion.
3. Dr. Chien makes some excellent points, but again, you're tilting at windmills here. The regs have been written, so we'll see what the market (doctors/insurance co's) do to respond once the FAA does their thing.
4. Don't start a thread with "3 points", then include 4-points. It makes you look like a buffoon, and is just as much of an indicator of the likelihood that you will make pilots look foolish.
 
sooner. ok we agree to disagree i respect that ,but i bet you are type of person that always sees the bright side whereas i always consider the dark-side first.
 
hotprops said:
sooner. ok we agree to disagree i respect that ,but i bet you are type of person that always sees the bright side whereas i always consider the dark-side first.
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Fair enough. I don't know that I'm so much looking at the bright-side so much as I'm going to withhold judgement until the results bear out. All that said, I'm not saying AOPA is some sort of saving grace for all of pilot-kind. It's just that we don't have an alternate reality to compare what the landscape would look like without their efforts. Catch-22.
 
hotprops said:
sooner. ok we agree to disagree i respect that ,but i bet you are type of person that always sees the bright side whereas i always consider the dark-side first.
Click to expand...


What a horrible way to go through life.

And lacking a <shift> key would be a struggle.
 
Aopa is not for me. Look at their salaries? They hide behind "...we are the only group looking out for you. How can you not contribute?'.

Aopa did not do 3rd call reform solo. Eaa played a huge role. Eaa led the most recent avionics push for noncertified equipment in certified planes.

Pilot community is aging out. Go look at current stats - average pilot age keeps increasing. We need youth to keep going and youth today could care less about piloting airplanes.

Just over 300,000 pilots have instrument ratings. Us population is 318.9m? Aopa could do way more but they don't and play on our weakness to contribute.
 
GLMS_NC said:
Just over 300,000 pilots have instrument ratings. Us population is 318.9m? Aopa could do way more but they don't and play on our weakness to contribute.
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what more could be done?
 
airdale said:
I just looked at their 2014 tax return on guidestar.org (the latest available) and see that the cash hoard is still at $70M (about twice annual revenue -- ridiculous), they paid Craig Fuller $500K, and are losing members at around 5% per year. Interestingly, I looked on the AOPA web site and could find no mention of the number of members they have. Ditto the tax returns - no member count. Maybe someone else's eyes are sharper than mine.
Click to expand...

Well, for 20 mil a year, they could start 400 flying clubs a year with a 50K contribution.

They're still pulling a cool 20 mill after that, if I read that right...
 
MichiPilot said:
what more could be done?
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Offer scholarship opportunities, free CFI assistance, free online training classes for members specific to the rating , hold online written prep sessions, goto meeting q/a forums, discounts on learning materials, etc.

They exist to serve their members, right? Wait, they exist for themselves first then members...
 
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I'm still stuck on "Owners" association.

There's very little usefulness in the organization for owners. And even less "fight" from the organization over the ridiculousness of stuff like a consumer GPS now being roughy $20-$30 retail and $10 wholesale vs aviation specific GPS units costing $10,000 or more.

For pilots there's more useful stuff than owners , but most of it comes from the ASF branch, IMHO. I

Supposedly Flight Training mag has gotten better over the years. Can't really remark on that, since I haven't seen a copy in years.
 
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