Do you abide by cloud clearance mins when VFR?

Do you abide by cloud clearance minimums when VFR?

  • YES. Stringently. If it's not a hole big enough for the FAA, I wont fly through it.

    Votes: 44 42.7%

  • Yes, but only to an extent. If I really need to cut it a bit closer I will.

    Votes: 36 35.0%

  • Not that strictly: Getting through a hole with 500ft around me is no biggie.

    Votes: 13 12.6%

  • As long as I see blue, I can fly through!

    Votes: 10 9.7%
  • Total voters
    103
ebykowsky

ebykowsky

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goalstop
Looking at the FARs, I realized that maintaining 2000ft horizontal cloud clearance means finding a 3/4 mile wide and long gap in the clouds. Even on a day with scattered cumulus, this is a pretty darn big hole. So, legalities aside, how stringently do you abide by this regulation? I'll make a poll for this, but it may not be comprehensive, so go ahead and discuss as well.
 
ebykowsky said:
Looking at the FARs, I realized that maintaining 2000ft horizontal cloud clearance means finding a 3/4 mile wide and long gap in the clouds. Even on a day with scattered cumulus, this is a pretty darn big hole. So, legalities aside, how stringently do you abide by this regulation? I'll make a poll for this, but it may not be comprehensive, so go ahead and discuss as well.
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Of course we all do :no: However I will absolutely not go into clouds unless it would be because of an emergency. I do try to keep as much distance above or below clouds as I reasonably can safely for IFR planes ascending or descending but shooting holes is a different story.
 
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Every. Single. Time.

Some rules are put in place to protect us from ourselves. This is one of them.
 
Additionally, the poll is structured to talk about getting through a somewhat dense scattered layer, but I'm also curious about flying by individual smaller stray clouds. Will you deviate course to stay a half mile away from that puffball?
 
My opinion is that it is completely irrelevant. Pilots are not required to receive raining in range estimation, they are not tested on range estimation, and even if they were, clouds are not some arbitrary fixed size so in the majority of instances it's impossible to perceive distance from a cloud with anything even approaching "accuracy".

Just use good judgement based on existing conditions and your experience level and stay safe.
 
Define "cloud". If it's a puffball that isn't obscuring anything I don't worry about it. Otherwise, I abide by the rule. My range estimation accuracy may be subject to variance, though.
 
I do my damnedest, I really do. That said, I don't have a tape measure big enough to actually measure how far away I am from those clouds and perspectives get very tricky topside.
 
steingar said:
I do my damnedest, I really do. That said, I don't have a tape measure big enough to actually measure how far away I am from those clouds and perspectives get very tricky topside.
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I've been in situations where we were sure we were >500' below a layer and (due to layer descending and conditions changing and us moving) we were suddenly seeing wisps at our altitude.

We descended.

Dangerous? Sure was, but we adjusted as soon as we detected an infraction. I was a passenger on this flight, so no need to report me personally =)
 
The rules are impossible to comply with because they are unenforceable. Every pilot out there, every CFI, every FAA examiner has broken this rule at some point. It's to be seen as a guide, rather.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Define "cloud". If it's a puffball that isn't obscuring anything I don't worry about it. Otherwise, I abide by the rule. My range estimation accuracy may be subject to variance, though.
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Yup, there's the rub.

If I can see through it, I don't count it as a cloud, and the intent of the regulation would seem to support that. You can't hide an IFR plane in a dinky puffball.

If you could hide an IFR plane in the cloud, it is indeed a cloud and should be steered clear of.
 
I never have and never will violate cloud clearance rules. It is all industrial haze to me.:lol::rofl:
 
steingar said:
I do my damnedest, I really do. That said, I don't have a tape measure big enough to actually measure how far away I am from those clouds and perspectives get very tricky topside.
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I just ask myself, "if a jigundo commercial jet flying 250 kts popped out of that thing straight toward me right now, would I be able to get out of the way." That's kind of my ruler.

And we got them around the Class B here too.
 
A rule is a rule. I really don't like people who think" rules apply to everyone else but me.". No suggesting anyone here is of that thought.

I'd never knowingly break any rule. Yet who can actually ever tell if that cloud is 500 above you or just 480 feet above you?
 
I've got really good eyes. Probably some of the best - but I don't have a built-in lazer rangefinder. Do I try my best to stay VFR? Absolutely. Can I be 100% that I am? No. If I have to worry about it though I just file most of the time, and even if I don't unless it's absolutely clear and a million I'm always on FF.
 
Uhhh Us glider guiders are always 501' below cloudbase...
 
There are times/places where you can accurately measure the distance between clouds. Around here the roads are laid out in a 1 mile grid and you can see how far the clouds are apart by looking at their shadows. It has always amazed me at how much farther apart they are than what I would estimate. When I'd guess a 1/4 mile opening they turn out to be a couple miles by their shadows!

Same error vertically, when I think I'm about 500 ft. below a scattered layer and go to climb through a gap to get over the top I often have to climb 1K or more to get even with the bases.

I don't worry so much about an IFR plane coming out of cloud when I'm on flight following, which is most of the time.
 
bartmc said:
Do ya'll have issues with "cloud suck" like the hang glider folks?
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Yep. Friend of mine was at VNE with the spoilers full open under a street out west just to keep from getting sucked into the clouds. Usually more of a problem out there than in the Midwest.
 
steingar said:
I do my damnedest, I really do. That said, I don't have a tape measure big enough to actually measure how far away I am from those clouds and perspectives get very tricky topside.
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+1. Always tried, can't be sure I succeeded.
 
the rule is meant for us pilots to be safe. why would i not follow it?
 
jspilot said:
I really don't like people who think" rules apply to everyone else but me."
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But someone might fly illegally close to clouds and think it's ok for everyone else to do so too.

I myself think the cloud-clearance rules are important to abide by, with the possible exception of cutting it a little closer if you're getting VFR radar advisories.

Yet who can actually ever tell if that cloud is 500 above you or just 480 feet above you?
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I'll generally accept nearby METAR, TAF, and FA estimates, unless I see clear evidence that suggests different altitudes.
 
I once had a "friend" who, while on VFR flight following with a CFII in a practice hold with another aircraft also on VFR flight following holding over the same fix 500' higher had the instructor report that they were "in and out of the clouds up here". The aircraft holding 500' higher was in even worse conditions.

I think this stuff happens scarily too often.
 
The flip side of the question is: when flying IFR do you follow VFR procedures when clear of clouds? - meaning looking outside rather than inside
 
It's a big "DEPENDS" (and not the diaper either)
It's circumstantial (ie, I better have a good excuse to violate, but that doesn't mean that I will avoid violating if the circumstance dictates)
And then, there is a variation on a theme to faux scud running --- kissing the cloud as a form of entertainment and seeing how it effects the plane and flight profile
{ probably also depends on the size of the cloud, and how much you can see around it }
 
I do the best I can with what I've been given to work with.
 
I follow rules that make sense, when they make sense, or where the penalty is so severe that it fails the value proposition.

I avoid clouds because an IFR aircraft might be in there, and I don't want to die. I will go through a hole or small layer if im sure whats on the other side, otherwise no go. Cant see other side, not going there. I'd bet money that very few pilots could tell the difference between 2000 feet and a mile with most clouds without actually flying up and effectively touching them.
 
Silvaire said:
The flip side of the question is: when flying IFR do you follow VFR procedures when clear of clouds? - meaning looking outside rather than inside
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Haha. You aren't allowed to ask that question. No no no. Besides everything out there has a transponder and is on flight following right? right?
 
It's definitely no fun to get ATC calls of VFR traffic - very close - while you're in IMC. Had that happen once, and when I popped out of the cloud, there was the VFR squirrel (happened to be a Lancair, very fast) a quarter-mile away, zipping in and out of the same cloud I had been in.

:eek:
 
ebykowsky said:
Additionally, the poll is structured to talk about getting through a somewhat dense scattered layer, but I'm also curious about flying by individual smaller stray clouds. Will you deviate course to stay a half mile away from that puffball?
Click to expand...

If I can see through it, no. If the cloud is opaque, yes I absolutely deviate up down, left or right as necessary.

-Skip
 
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