Do they teach correct patterns any more?

bflynn said:
“Ya’ll get out of my way, I’m comin’ in”.
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Hard to call it that way without having been there but my take is if you're just doing training pattern work touch and goes how about accommodating all of the legitimate traffic and staying out of the way. Extending your downwind is some good training too.
 
IK04 said:
I don't see how turning to fly a 5-mile straight in could be considered being in the traffic pattern. It shouldn't matter whether you are intercepting from the left or right side of the course.
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Agreed.

Then again...the way I see it...

You're still outside "the airport environment" also so you're really not on final and don't have the right-of-way.
 
IK04 said:
I don't see how turning to fly a 5-mile straight in could be considered being in the traffic pattern. It shouldn't matter whether you are intercepting from the left or right side of the course.
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It isn’t. The Alaska Air cases were much close, 1-2 miles and 3.1 miles. For a 737, that is a right base.
 
1RTK1 said:
Aren’t most FAF’s well outside the normal traffic pattern. When cleared to the FAF it doesn’t matter which way you turn at that point. Right?
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You won't be cleared to the FAF unless it is for a visual approach. If you are at a towered-controlled airport (which airliners usually are) then it doesn't matter. You fly whatever ATC tells to to fly. It's only an issue at non-towered airports.

The minimum distance to treat it as a straight-in final isn't specifically defined and will vary somewhat depending on the FAA inspector who observes it and the NTSB judge who handles any appeal. At a non-towered airport, I'll use "outside the FAF" because I think that is defendable. It may not be much outside the FAF but enough so that I'm clearly established before it. I'm flying transport jets, though, and am likely joining final between 170 and 210 KIAS. A slower airplane wouldn't necessarily have to be out that far.
 
Silvaire said:
Hard to call it that way without having been there but my take is if you're just doing training pattern work touch and goes how about accommodating all of the legitimate traffic and staying out of the way. Extending your downwind is some good training too.
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all traffic in the pattern is legitimate. Just because they're doing touch and goes doesn't mean they don't belong there.
 
UngaWunga said:
all traffic in the pattern is legitimate. Just because they're doing touch and goes doesn't mean they don't belong there.
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Airports are gateways to a community. Unless they're privately owned for some other reason, their purpose is for access. By impeding itinerant aircraft from that access you do a disservice to your community. Extending downwind to accommodate an occasional stranger in town is the courteous thing to do. Let them in.
 
imwithtuxedo said:
When I was a student pilot flying a Cherokee 140 (uncontrolled airport) with my instructor I called out 3 miles out, on the 45, and then left downwind and this big twin called out 5 mile straight in final right after I announce downwind. I then turn and call out and announce left base and right after this twin announces 3 mile final straight in. I'm worried so I ask my instructor what to do and he says "turn final and announce it we're slower, lower, and in the pattern". So, slightly scared I turn final, announce, and about the time I'm over the fence this ******* in the twin overflies me by about 500' to let me know he's there as he banks hard to the left to go around. We were doing touch n go's at the time and I was a student pilot, if it happened today I'd park my plane on the ramp and wait for him to discuss his antics as I was lower and established when he decided to announce his intentions to force me to accommodate him.

14 CFR § 91.113 Right-of-way rules:
(g)Landing.Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.
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Primacy at work. Your instructor was an a hole and here you are trying to make sense of it all...
 
I don't have any answer to you guys flying big iron when a controller clears you to a FAF. In that case, I would probably fly the right base too. At least you can say that you were doing as directed by ATC. BUT, most of us flying into a non-towered field in VFR conditions, even if on an IFR flight plan, will get direct to the airport and expect a visual. When that happens, I still believe that it's against the FAR's to fly a right hand pattern to a left hand runway. And it's exceptionally questionable to announce that you're breaking the regs on the radio.
 
UngaWunga said:
all traffic in the pattern is legitimate. Just because they're doing touch and goes doesn't mean they don't belong there.
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However, traffic shall not take advantage of being in the pattern to cut in front of traffic already on final. Just extend, its the easiest thing in the world to do and the punishment is more flying time. Hurt me twice.
 
I'm just happy if they make their calls in English; provided I can understand at least half of it...

Don't know about your airport, but lots of foreign training in S Atlanta area...
 
sarangan said:
Why don't you tell us which airport, so we can check if runway 30 is left or right traffic?
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I can name at least one airport (S49) where the sectional chart and Chart supplement indicate Left traffic for 18 and the marking around the windsock indicates right traffic.

Brian
 
zaitcev said:
I learned to fly at a Charlie. Still hate stupid Deltas that just waste taxpayer funds for no reason. That, and ferrying an airplane with a broken radio from New York to Texas. Thanks god the Deltas haven't overtaken all of the country just yet.
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I love Deltas, and Charlies. They make IFR flight much easier, especially when you can't depart VFR.

Maybe the new number for ATC will be better than the old IFR 800 number. It was better than a GCO, but not by much.
 
brcase said:
I can name at least one airport (S49) where the sectional chart and Chart supplement indicate Left traffic for 18 and the marking around the windsock indicates right traffic.
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Point out that discrepancy to the airport manager. They can either remove the visual indicators or update their information in the chart supplement/sectional.
 
Skymac said:
and it’s attitudes like this that I love to shut down... Me and a Student in the pattern working on landings at a non-controller field, beginning left base for a touch and go, a airbus makes his very first call to CTAF as a 3 mile final for the same runway... Nope, sorry dipweed, you’re going around
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Wow! Your students must LOVE you:confused:

I'd rather extend or slow down for anything big and fast that wants to share the runway. I've been in the pattern with a large jet flying at their TPA 500 feet higher after they were forced by someone such as yourself to break off ... they fly WIDER and HIGHER and FASTER making it hard for me to sequence with them, being INSIDE of them ... then you get to worry about wake turbulence.

Instead of "sorry dipweed", you could've taken the opportunity to show your student to remain at TPA on the upwind and side step to see the runway ... you're doing TNGs, do you not teach go-arounds too?
 
brcase said:
I can name at least one airport (S49) where the sectional chart and Chart supplement indicate Left traffic for 18 and the marking around the windsock indicates right traffic.

Brian
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Google's satellite view. [Edit: Misinterpretation of symbol deleted.]

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Looks like left for 36 and right for 18 unless this is some sort of Rorschach test.
 
If an Airbus reports she's coming straight in to Vale I will be going straight OUT.
 
Palmpilot said:
Oops, you're right! For some reason, I interpreted the "L" symbols as showing the direction of the downwind-to-base turns, not the base-to-final turns! :oops:
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I never had that problem because I "see" upwind to crosswind. :p
 
We get a lot of 135 traffic at KLOM, mostly PC12 and BE200 types, who love to call 7 mile final straight in, regardless of traffic in the pattern. My understanding has always been that you enter on downwind, maybe base, unless there is no traffic. You don’t just barge in on a long final. I fly a twin turboprop myself, and I never do the long straight final unless the pattern is clear. I am no angel, but I try to play nice with everyone. I think attitudes differ between based aircraft and visitors, especially 135 visitors.
 
flyersfan31 said:
We get a lot of 135 traffic at KLOM, mostly PC12 and BE200 types, who love to call 7 mile final straight in, regardless of traffic in the pattern. My understanding has always been that you enter on downwind, maybe base, unless there is no traffic. You don’t just barge in on a long final. I fly a twin turboprop myself, and I never do the long straight final unless the pattern is clear. I am no angel, but I try to play nice with everyone. I think attitudes differ between based aircraft and visitors, especially 135 visitors.
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When did this happen?!?!?
 
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