Do the steep turns G-force bother you?

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imjamesscott

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imjamesscott
I'm about 8-9 hours into getting my PPL and I the only thing that bothers me and i hate doing are steep turns. I seem to always lose altitude not alot but still not level flight. I think it is because the G-force bothers me to where the more i pull up the more i feel it. I usually get it good once then we move to the next maneavur. Anyways will i get used to the g-force or will it always bother me? Also, any tips to master a steep turn. my instructor is against trimming on steep turns as he want me to feel the airplane.. I also fly 172 skyhawks.
 
imjamesscott said:
I'm about 8-9 hours into getting my PPL and I the only thing that bothers me and i hate doing are steep turns. I seem to always lose altitude not alot but still not level flight. I think it is because the G-force bothers me to where the more i pull up the more i feel it. I usually get it good once then we move to the next maneavur. Anyways will i get used to the g-force or will it always bother me? Also, any tips to master a steep turn. my instructor is against trimming on steep turns as he want me to feel the airplane.. I also fly 172 skyhawks.
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Perhaps being exposed to greater g forces and becoming comfortable with that feeling could help.
 
I definitely do not like pulling g's. No one will ever get me on a roller coaster again (two guesses who talked me into it the first and only time).

However, please understand that many people can develop more tolerance for the g's in steep turns with more exposure. With less than 10 hours, I would suggest that it's a little early to be concerned much about it.
 
Proper use of trim will greatly reduce the G-forces you pull in the turn.
 
GCA319 said:
Proper use of trim will greatly reduce the G-forces you pull in the turn.
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um, huh?

Are we talking about control forces or G's?
 
GCA319 said:
Proper use of trim will greatly reduce the G-forces you pull in the turn.
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Proper use of the trim will not reduce the g-forces in a steep turn. Not even improper use of the trim will do that. You cannot change the laws of physics -- the g-force you feel in a steep turn is determined solely by bank angle. The only things trimming will do are reduce the amount of stick force needed during the turn, and induce you into ballooning on roll-out, the later being the reason the Airplane Flying Handbook recommends against it.

As for the original question, yes, the more you do it, the more you'll get used to it. In my case, I pulled a lot more than the typical 1.4-2 g's you get in a 45-60 degree bank steep turn during my fighter days, so it's really no big deal for me.
 
Ron Levy said:
Proper use of the trim will not reduce the g-forces in a steep turn. Not even improper use of the trim will do that. You cannot change the laws of physics -- the g-force you feel in a steep turn is determined solely by bank angle. The only things trimming will do are reduce the amount of stick force needed during the turn, and induce you into ballooning on roll-out, the later being the reason the Airplane Flying Handbook recommends against it.

As for the original question, yes, the more you do it, the more you'll get used to it. In my case, I pulled a lot more than the typical 1.4-2 g's you get in a 45-60 degree bank steep turn during my fighter days, so it's really no big deal for me.
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It will prevent the "uh oh, I lost some altitude then yank" G-Forces.
 
imjamesscott said:
What maneuvers could i do in a cessna that would create more g's.
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There aren't really any maneuvers you can do in a Cessna 172 that will produce more sustained g's. You could probably do some pitch-down/pitch-up maneuvers that would create up to the aircraft's g-limit (3.8-4.4 g's, depending on load), but you would only be able to sustain that for a few seconds before reaching an aerobatic pitch angle and have to end the maneuver. In addition, even if you were legal to bank past 60 degrees in that 172 (several issues involved in that), pulling much more than the 2 g's you get at 60 degrees would increase drag so much that even with full power you'd slow down below the accelerated stall speed with that much g on the plane and stall.

All things considered, if you really want to feel more g's than you can get with a 60-degree steep turn, you'd be best to go to one of those emergency handling courses where they use aerobatic certified aircraft with enough power/weight ratio to sustain turns of 4g's or more, like an Extra 300.
 
bartmc said:
It will prevent the "uh oh, I lost some altitude then yank" G-Forces.
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..and instead cause the "uh oh, I gained some altitude and then push" negative g-forces on roll-out. Better just to learn how to fly the plane the maneuver properly -- by using back pressure to hold the nose where it belongs, as the AFH recommends. If nothing else, taking your hand off the throttle to adjust the trim is asking to have a speed loss because you're busy trimming unnecessarily when you should be making an essential throttle adjustment.
 
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Don't worry too much over it. You will develop a tolerance for it with time. Make sure you eat a decent meal before you fly, that you are hydrated also. As you pull the turn blow out of your mouth with it pursed so that you tighten your diaphragm and abdominals... That might help too. Folks who fly aerobatics do that when they are pulling higher Gs.
At least steep turns don't last long....
 
imjamesscott said:
I'm about 8-9 hours into getting my PPL and I the only thing that bothers me and i hate doing are steep turns. I seem to always lose altitude not alot but still not level flight. I think it is because the G-force bothers me to where the more i pull up the more i feel it. I usually get it good once then we move to the next maneavur. Anyways will i get used to the g-force or will it always bother me? Also, any tips to master a steep turn. my instructor is against trimming on steep turns as he want me to feel the airplane.. I also fly 172 skyhawks.
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What do you mean by "bother" you? Are you feeling ill or is the pull on the yoke fatiguing you? You should be doing no more than 60 degrees so it's only 2 Gs. You instructor should allow you to trim to relax the force required.

If it's a medical issue you might want to see a doctor. I had a student once in flight school who was getting light headed from doing 60 degree turns. He was very worried about seeing the flight doc and not graduating. I told him it's better to be safe than to push something that might be an underlying medical cause. Getting light headed from 2 Gs isn't normal, especially since we don't have G suits in the Army. :)
 
Velocity173 said:
What do you mean by "bother" you? Are you feeling ill or is the pull on the yoke fatiguing you? You should be doing no more than 60 degrees so it's only 2 Gs. You instructor should allow you to trim to relax the force required.

If it's a medical issue you might want to see a doctor. I had a student once in flight school who was getting light headed from doing 60 degree turns. He was very worried about seeing the flight doc and not graduating. I told him it's better to be safe than to push something that might be an underlying medical cause. Getting light headed from 2 Gs isn't normal, especially since we don't have G suits in the Army. :)
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I don't feel ill or anything i just feel light headed i guess would be the best way to describe it. My instructor said it doesn't bother him which is why i posted i don't have any known medical issues or symptoms, im only 19. Maybe i just am not used to feeling g's and will eventually grow out of it.... just curious what happended to your student?
 
imjamesscott said:
I don't feel ill or anything i just feel light headed i guess would be the best way to describe it. My instructor said it doesn't bother him which is why i posted i don't have any known medical issues or symptoms, im only 19. Maybe i just am not used to feeling g's and will eventually grow out of it.... just curious what happended to your student?
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I recommeded that he see the flight surgeon. Whether he did that or not is up to him. He is responsible for his well being and therefore should report any medical problems to the doc. Possibly he realized it wasn't interfering in his flying enough to report it. I know he at least made it through basic combat skills and went on to nights though.

We only have to demo 60 degree bank and 30 degrees of pitch in the Black Hawk. Since he made it through the entire demo without interruption my job was done. If he couldn't make it due to illness then I would be required to do a human factors precautionary landing and I would have to send him to the flight surgeon.

Possibly our resident doc, Bruce can chime in and provide insight as to whether or not this is something to worry about. I'm sure there are many pilots out there who get light headed. If in your case it isn't debilitating I'd say give it some time and see if it goes away. Hopefully that is the case. General aviation should be an enjoyable experience. You don't want to be worried about feeling bad when you go out flying. Good luck to ya.
 
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Keep plugging away at them. They will turn into your favorite maneuver. At least they did for me. But I too did not like feeling it at first. But the more I did them the more it was not a factor to where now I like feeling the g's. You will get over it. Go ride a roller coaster that has tight turns, I love that feeling of my head sinking to my chest.
 
Its a little early to suggest the OP has a medical problem... getting used to gees takes time for everyone, and some .more than others.
If you make sure your body is prepared and spend a good amount of time doing steep turns until you can do them smoothly, the discomfort level should go down. I would suggest starting the steep turn portion of a lesson with a steep 360 or even a 720. That should give you a chance to come to terms with the weird feeling.
If not, then yeah, maybe there's a problem. The steepest, tightest turns in a 172 are pretty mild compared to loops and the kind of turns done with more aerobatic airplanes, which can challenge anybody. First time I pulled over 3 g at the bottom of a loop I began to doubt my decision to try aerobatics.:D
 
If its any help, I am in about 18 hours now. when I first started the steep bank turns made me feel seasick. That has all gone away and I don't get that feeling anymore. If that's how you feel, go buy some "Non-Drowsy" Nauzene Motion Sickness pills. They are basically just ginger pills, but I used them after the first time I felt sick and never had any issues after. I don't need them anymore, so it was just my body needing to adjust. good luck! :)
 
imjamesscott said:
I don't feel ill or anything i just feel light headed i guess would be the best way to describe it. My instructor said it doesn't bother him which is why i posted i don't have any known medical issues or symptoms, im only 19. Maybe i just am not used to feeling g's and will eventually grow out of it.... just curious what happended to your student?
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If you're truly experiencing diminished consciousness (seems unlikely to me in a 45° bank) you might try tensing your legs and abdomen. That will help maintain blood flow to your head. But I suspect that the "light headedness" is more about apprehension/fear than the actual g-force. You might try just relaxing a bit more. And as others have suggested, familiarity with the sensation and situation will likely lead to accommodation.

As to the altitude loss issue, that's almost entirely about maintaining the proper attitude and for that you must focus on the horizon directly in front of you and keep a relatively constant separation between that and the nose of the airplane. I say relatively constant because you do need to pitch up a few degrees as the g-force builds and even more if you don't add enough power to maintain airspeed. Anticipating the need for a higher pitch attitude as you roll in and reducing it as you roll out (plus being able to see it) will go a long way toward maintaining altitude throughout the turn
 
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JasonM said:
If its any help, I am in about 18 hours now. when I first started the steep bank turns made me feel seasick. That has all gone away and I don't get that feeling anymore. If that's how you feel, go buy some "Non-Drowsy" Nauzene Motion Sickness pills. They are basically just ginger pills, but I used them after the first time I felt sick and never had any issues after. I don't need them anymore, so it was just my body needing to adjust. good luck! :)
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Or a box of Ginger Snap cookies ($1.39 for the Target store brand!) I haven't gotten airsick in 35 years but I still eat them "just in case"! ;)
 
That's supposed to be the fun part . . . honest.

If flying is only driving a bus from point A to point B with no drama . . . well, the no drama part if nice - but ultimately boring. Making the airplane do exactly what you want it to do is the essence of becoming an aviator instead of merely a pilot.

As for the nausea / light headedness - are you letting your head drop from the g's? Pay attention next time because the shifting your head position along with the movement of the airplane will really get the fluid sloshing - if you keep your head up and access the artificial horizon from your peripheral vision rather than dropping your head to look at it . . . .
 
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Steep turns don't bother me anymore as I am subjected to 11-13gs every time I push the throttle forward on the Mooney.
 
Ron Levy said:
Proper use of the trim will not reduce the g-forces in a steep turn. Notdon'ten improper use of the trim will do that. You cannot change the laws of physi -- the g-force you feel in a steep turn is determined solely by bank angle. The only things trimming will do are reduce the amount of stick force needed during the turn, and induce you into ballooning on roll-out, the later being the reason the Airplane Flying Handbook recommends against it.

As for the original question, yes, the more you do it, the more you'll get used to it. In my case, I pulled a lot more than the typical 1.4-2 g's you get in a 45-60 degree bank steep turn during my fighter days, so it's really no big deal for me.
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I guess I should have worded it differently. The more stick force you need (which is alot if you don't trim in a steep turn), the more you're going to get pushed into your seat(discomfort, which is what the OP is complaining about) as a result of the increased load from the extra pull.
 
bartmc said:
I didn't know mooney's had to have a Bonanza tow them to take off. :D
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There is no way a Bonanza would yank a Mooney into the sky with such acceleration unless it was being pulled by a Flybaby.
 
You forgot to insert the decimal point.

DavidWhite said:
Steep turns don't bother me anymore as I am subjected to 11-13gs every time I push the throttle forward on the Mooney.
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That's the one that causes the most discomfort and also produces the most busted check rides. Pilots who trim off the pressure passing ~20 degrees of bank don't need to yank, because they haven't lost the altitude and/or created the sink that makes it necessary, and don't call the examiner's attention to an exceedence of tolerance that must be immediately corrected in order to continue the ride but with one strike already recorded against the pilot.

Steep turns as required by many examiners, including 100% of those who work at 142 schools (because it's SOP) include trim for hands off pressure during the turn to prevent all those bad things that happen without it.

bartmc said:
It will prevent the "uh oh, I lost some altitude then yank" G-Forces.
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bartmc said:
I didn't know mooney's had to have a Bonanza tow them to take off. :D
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jesse said:
There is no way a Bonanza would yank a Mooney into the sky with such acceleration unless it was being pulled by a Flybaby.
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They quit putting towhooks on Comanches, because they were tearing the engines right off the mounts of the plane being towed when the Comanche went to 1/4 throttle for take off.

True story.
 
Hmm. I think that's going to be my new gangsta rap name.

G-force.
 
Ron Levy said:
..and instead cause the "uh oh, I gained some altitude and then push" negative g-forces on roll-out. Better just to learn how to fly the plane the maneuver properly -- by using back pressure to hold the nose where it belongs, as the AFH recommends. If nothing else, taking your hand off the throttle to adjust the trim is asking to have a speed loss because you're busy trimming unnecessarily when you should be making an essential throttle adjustment.
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Thank you!
This is exactly how I was taught. I never fumble with trim during steep turns and I actually enjoy sensing the control pressures and what adjustments I need.

Luckily, the G's never bothered me during steep turns.
The three and a half G loops, screwed me up a little:redface:. In fact, that was the only time I've ever felt air sick.
 
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The only time I remember being bothered by steep turns was when I was riding safety-pilot with someone else working on 60deg turns. I've never had any problems doing them myself, but that one time I got a little queasy when someone else was doing them - maybe I was just having a bad day, maybe it was an empty stomach. More likely it was that I wasn't in control.

It's possible that once you find out how to fly the airplane, instead if letting it fly you, that those feelings will go away.
 
And whatever you do, don't ever take your hand off the throttle to change a squawk or nav/comm freq or adjust an airvent or other cockpit during climbout.

Ron Levy said:
..and instead cause the "uh oh, I gained some altitude and then push" negative g-forces on roll-out. Better just to learn how to fly the plane the maneuver properly -- by using back pressure to hold the nose where it belongs, as the AFH recommends. If nothing else, taking your hand off the throttle to adjust the trim is asking to have a speed loss because you're busy trimming unnecessarily when you should be making an essential throttle adjustment.
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