Do submarine helmsmen have to deal with Spacial D?

There's a Soviet Foxtrot class submarine, B39, here in San Diego.. it's surprisingly claustrophobic inside. I think it's because of how "heavy" everything feels in there, makes you feel powerless. When I toured the USS Lionfish I didn't feel that claustrophobia. They're roughly the same size (length and displacement) but for some reason the Lionfish was more comfortable

Speaking of subs, I highly recommend "Operation Odessa" - a fascinating watch
 
denverpilot said:
Also ran across this and just marveled at the freaking sheer size of the Typhoon and the crazy azz design
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It's arguably one of the coolest machines ever built.

Soviet engineering is something else. The N1 Rocket (Apollo's rival that never flew) had 10,2 million lbf thrust, a healthy 34% more than Apollo's 7,6 first stage. Not to mention all the aviation wonders they bestowed on us

I'm surprised that in the age of modern piracy on the high seas with many large ships now paying high insurance rates and merc security crews no one has thought to commercialize submarine shipping to carry high value logistics through sensitive areas. If you "hollowed out" an Oscar II or Typhoon sub you could fit a fair amount of goods in there and comfortably dive when threatened
 
Sinistar said:
When I was in a tug lost power and the vertical stabilizer on the stern planes (USS Georgia, not my boat) sliced right thru the tug and it sunk like within a minute or so with fatality
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Many years ago I watched a YouTube of something that looked like this.. was this the incident, right? It says Georgia in the vid
"GET OFF YOU'RE ON THE STERN PLANES"


Sinistar said:
And to a previous poster...sitting helm/planes was usually very boring. That's why there was a salty 300yr old Senior Chief sitting Dive right behind you. By your first 10 watches you had learned cuss words you never knew existed. You've been slapped on the side of the like 25 times. He's reminded you your GF is bsck home banging a Marine. And...he tells the best damned jokes ever :)
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:rofl:
 
Chief of the watch, pump forward trim to aft trim immediately. All stop. Rudder amidships, all back emergency.

Never mind, man overboard starboard side aft. Deck gang, paint a tug on the sail.
 
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Tantalum said:
I'm surprised that in the age of modern piracy on the high seas with many large ships now paying high insurance rates and merc security crews no one has thought to commercialize submarine shipping to carry high value logistics through sensitive areas. If you "hollowed out" an Oscar II or Typhoon sub you could fit a fair amount of goods in there and comfortably dive when threatened
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Only a couple of nuclear-powered civilian ships were ever built, and they've long since been decommissioned as uneconomical. I think it would be tough to get approval to build another one, and I doubt anyone wants a giant diesel-electric sub.

The USS Bass, which I believe is still the largest non-nuclear sub ever built, was used briefly as a cargo sub in WWII (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Bass_(SS-164)). It had design flaws that were found to render it unsuitable for combat, but it wasn't much use as a cargo vessel either, so it was eventually sunk as target practice in early 1945. She rests in two pieces at about 155' off of Block Island--I've visited a couple of times on SCUBA, and it's a very interesting dive.
 
^although not a "true" submarine.. more like "very low riding low profile" boats
 
GaryM said:
The USS Bass, which I believe is still the largest non-nuclear sub ever built, was used briefly as a cargo sub in WWII (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Bass_(SS-164)). It had design flaws that were found to render it unsuitable for combat, but it wasn't much use as a cargo vessel either, so it was eventually sunk as target practice in early 1945. She rests in two pieces at about 155' off of Block Island--I've visited a couple of times on SCUBA, and it's a very interesting dive.
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Sounds like a cool dive! Got my PADI this past summer and looking to do some wreck dives next summer

...maybe a retrofit is not a good idea then, but we do have big boats that partially submerge.. even if not a true submarine I would imagine it's not that technologically challenging to create a container ship type that could, if threatened, disappear just under the surface
 
Tantalum said:
Sounds like a cool dive! Got my PADI this past summer and looking to do some wreck dives next summer
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If you're in the San Diego area, you have some great diving opportunities. I can't claim to know the area well, but on various business trips over the years I've managed to dive the Yukon, the Ruby E, the NOSC Tower, a little bit of the shallow end of Scripps Canyon, and the kelp forests. I enjoyed the kelp the most, but that might be because in the Northeast, we have lots of wrecks, but no kelp.
 
GaryM said:
If you're in the San Diego area, you have some great diving opportunities. I can't claim to know the area well, but on various business trips over the years I've managed to dive the Yukon, the Ruby E, the NOSC Tower, a little bit of the shallow end of Scripps Canyon, and the kelp forests. I enjoyed the kelp the most, but that might be because in the Northeast, we have lots of wrecks, but no kelp.
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That's where I did my PADI at La Jolla shores and over by the canyon.. had a chance to dive in Maui and Catalina as well. it is a really cool hobby, the technical aspect of it is not too dissimilar from flying in my opinion

Not ready just yet for the deeper stuff past 60 ft.. some day though!
 
GaryM said:
Only a couple of nuclear-powered civilian ships were ever built, and they've long since been decommissioned as uneconomical. I think it would be tough to get approval to build another one, and I doubt anyone wants a giant diesel-electric sub.

The USS Bass, which I believe is still the largest non-nuclear sub ever built, was used briefly as a cargo sub in WWII (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Bass_(SS-164)). It had design flaws that were found to render it unsuitable for combat, but it wasn't much use as a cargo vessel either, so it was eventually sunk as target practice in early 1945. She rests in two pieces at about 155' off of Block Island--I've visited a couple of times on SCUBA, and it's a very interesting dive.
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The only US nuclear non-warship was the NS Savannah, a small freighter. It was built as a propaganda item, America is so great we even have nuclear powered freighters. But it was so expensive to run that it was never profitable, decommissioned in 1971 and is currently tied..maybe welded...to a dock in Baltimore. It has been designated a national heritage site, but still needs to be decontaminated and may one day become a museum.

There were 3 other nuclear powered freighters and Russia had a fleet of nuclear powered ice breakers.
 
Tantalum said:
That's where I did my PADI at La Jolla shores and over by the canyon.. had a chance to dive in Maui and Catalina as well. it is a really cool hobby, the technical aspect of it is not too dissimilar from flying in my opinion

Not ready just yet for the deeper stuff past 60 ft.. some day though!
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Advanced is nothing. I went out and did it over the summer, pretty non event. Two deep dives, to 85' and 104', no issues for me.
 
You're correct, wrong word. The stil have multiple. The majority have been decommed, but some are still active.
 
bflynn said:
Advanced is nothing. I went out and did it over the summer, pretty non event. Two deep dives, to 85' and 104', no issues for me.
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I believe you.. but to me there's a psychological element to it too. At 60 ft I know I can get to the surface more or less "right away" as the no decompression limit is almost an hour.. I'll run out of air first. But at 100 ft that figure is dramatically shorter. I *can't* "just surface" if I have to. There's a different psychological barrier to it. I understand in practice you always do safety stops and come up slowly.. but just knowing that you theoretical "can" go right up if you have to vs not is different

But I'll get there
 
Tantalum said:
Many years ago I watched a YouTube of something that looked like this.. was this the incident, right? It says Georgia in the vid
"GET OFF YOU'RE ON THE STERN PLANES"



:rofl:
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yep!

Crazy how fast in sunk. I thought there was at least one fatality..not sure though. Thank goodness they were in warm Pacific waters and not someplace cold. Thanks for the video, heard many stories about it as Georgia was 729 and we were 730 both out of Bangor. You could see they were cranking up the turns (screw rpm) to make the right rudder more effective.

Technically the tug wasn't on the stern planes, rather the subs vertical stabilizer which would basically mimic a sharp knife cutting thru the tug vertically from behind and below.

That video also gives a good view of just how high up the superstructure of the Trident sits above the water. Quite different from the fast boats.
 
Tantalum said:
I believe you.. but to me there's a psychological element to it too. At 60 ft I know I can get to the surface more or less "right away" as the no decompression limit is almost an hour.. I'll run out of air first. But at 100 ft that figure is dramatically shorter. I *can't* "just surface" if I have to.
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They call that a 'soft ceiling'. A hard ceiling is inside a cave or shipwreck where you are physically blocked from a direct ascent. In a serious decompression dive, there may not be anything overhead but water, but you are physiologically blocked from a direct ascent. Both types of diving can be done safely, with the right training, experience, and a lot of redundant equipment.
 
Sinistar said:
yep!

Crazy how fast in sunk. I thought there was at least one fatality..not sure though. Thank goodness they were in warm Pacific waters and not someplace cold. Thanks for the video, heard many stories about it as Georgia was 729 and we were 730 both out of Bangor. You could see they were cranking up the turns (screw rpm) to make the right rudder more effective.

Technically the tug wasn't on the stern planes, rather the subs vertical stabilizer which would basically mimic a sharp knife cutting thru the tug vertically from behind and below.

That video also gives a good view of just how high up the superstructure of the Trident sits above the water. Quite different from the fast boats.
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They are impressive machines for sure. Sadly the comment in the YouTube video on the YouTube channel itself says there were two fatalities.. that thing went down really quick.
 
Tantalum said:
I believe you.. but to me there's a psychological element to it too. At 60 ft I know I can get to the surface more or less "right away" as the no decompression limit is almost an hour.. I'll run out of air first. But at 100 ft that figure is dramatically shorter. I *can't* "just surface" if I have to. There's a different psychological barrier to it. I understand in practice you always do safety stops and come up slowly.. but just knowing that you theoretical "can" go right up if you have to vs not is different

But I'll get there
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Since we're in the submarine thread, I'll mention the escape towers, there was one in Groton and one in Pearl Harbor. They're both gone now and they do a 10' version of this. Before, every submariner got trained to do a 100' ascent. One of the things to remember is that you have plenty of air, in fact you have way too much air. If you don't expel it, you'll burst your lungs. During the ascent, the trainees were taught to constantly "ho-ho-ho" because as you know, the pressure changes as you ascend and they determine that was a good way to force air out.

In scuba, it's probable that if you drop your weight belt, you are going to come up fast and in fact start coming up faster as you ascend. Your air will probably come back on, but you will not be able to stop. So just keep in mind the ho-ho-ho technique to clear your lungs and that as the pressure drops, your regulator will probably start working again.

Submarine life is all about basic physics, especially pressure.

eb84859e137c0b8d60577fe830a0c131.jpg
 
bflynn said:
Since we're in the submarine thread, I'll mention the escape towers, there was one in Groton and one in Pearl Harbor. They're both gone now and they do a 10' version of this. Before, every submariner got trained to do a 100' ascent.
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Wow--that is a long free ascent. I had no idea they used to do those in training. An important skill to have, but so easy to embolize if something goes wrong. Civilian SCUBA training stopped doing free ascents from more than about 10' by the 70's, if not earlier. The technique is discussed in the classroom, not performed in open water.

Kinda like spin training for private pilots. Used to be required, now for most students it only gets discussed.
 
Holy [insert expletive]!

That tower gave me an short, involuntary second of PTSD panic...

Memories of Elizabeth City...
 
bflynn said:
Since we're in the submarine thread, I'll mention the escape towers, there was one in Groton and one in Pearl Harbor. They're both gone now and they do a 10' version of this. Before, every submariner got trained to do a 100' ascent. One of the things to remember is that you have plenty of air, in fact you have way too much air. If you don't expel it, you'll burst your lungs. During the ascent, the trainees were taught to constantly "ho-ho-ho" because as you know, the pressure changes as you ascend and they determine that was a good way to force air out.

In scuba, it's probable that if you drop your weight belt, you are going to come up fast and in fact start coming up faster as you ascend. Your air will probably come back on, but you will not be able to stop. So just keep in mind the ho-ho-ho technique to clear your lungs and that as the pressure drops, your regulator will probably start working again.

Submarine life is all about basic physics, especially pressure.
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For these exercises.. how are the bends dealt with? Or is the dive time short enough that it's not an issue? For scuba diving if you have two tanks you'll be well past your no deco time and must stop on the way up. I mean, I guess you don't have to....
 
The dive time is short. At 100', your initial no-decomp bottom time is something like 8 minutes, so the bends are not an issue here.

They didn't swim down. The trainees would enter an escape chamber at the bottom of the tank which matched the chamber on board the boats. They would flood the chamber, equalize pressure, open the hatch, and then go. The time started when the pressure inside the escape chamber was equalized to tank pressure pressure and it took something like 10-15 seconds to get the hatch open.

Just like diving, never hold your breath, ho ho ho all the way to the top. Air will expand. There were breathing assistance devices - first a device called a Momson Lung, later a Steike Hood. They would let you rebreathe your same air, but they weren't necessary. Bascially, they kept you from involuntarily sucking in water.

I'm sure some people got hurt doing this, but I don't know any. There were divers inside the tower at various depths. If you weren't blowing bubbles, they were to grab you and make you do it.
 
After all this is over, if anyone wants to meet in Baltimore, I'd be happy to give a Gilligan tour on board the submarine there. Gilligan = 4 hour cruise.
 
The creepy thing about the underwater escape was thinking of what actual depth it might be attempted from. And how cold it might have been. This escape method and DSRVs were probably only 3% likely to be of use AND have survivors.

Some irony...I couldn't get my ears to clear so was exempted. But I went on to scuba (like several here) and never have ear issues.

Also rather interesting...the word was the corspman was to be stationed by the escape trunk and would puncture eardrums in advance if needed. A finely controlled pin prick sized hole to the eardrum would be 1000x less painful than entering that trunk, equalizing to Xft and not able to clear.

The Stienke hood was weird. So when the ascent is done you actually have something over your head...like a air inflated life jacket with a relief valve and a water tight hood. With that volume of air in the bladder....you are going up!!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinke_hood
 
bflynn said:
After all this is over, if anyone wants to meet in Baltimore, I'd be happy to give a Gilligan tour on board the submarine there. Gilligan = 4 hour cruise.
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A submarine tour followed by Crab Cakes and cold beers would be a blast.
 
Sinistar said:
A submarine tour followed by Crab Cakes and cold beers would be a blast.
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Definitely, and I don’t even like crab. Where do we landlubbers fly into?
 
Here's a good scuba lesson.

I made it to Dive Master and stopped there because I had no interest to instruct. I would help an older instructor with many classes each year. My favorite was the summer weekend camping diving trips to the mine pits. As @bflynn mentioned a few deep dives are required for the next certification. We trained under PADI. I think the progression was like:

Open Water
Advanced
Rescue
Master Diver
Dive Master
Instructor
Course Director? (Instructor Instructor)

Then specialties like:

Drift
Boat
Camera
Drysuit
Cavern
Cave
Nitrox
Deco/Tri-Mix
Rebreather (Semi Closed Circuit, Closed Circuit)

...so back to the mine pit dives. The 1st thermocline is around 12ft or so. The temp drops from about +70F to mid 50's. That will cull the warm water divers! There is another farther down in the high 30's.

So the cold requires a very heavy wet suit. The shop would rent 2pc farmer John suits in 7mm. So that 14mm for the bodies trunk.

Now come the problems.

The skinny people go down into the total dark (it is dark at 90ft in a mine pit). That 14mm suit compresses. Since the rental BCDs are not weight integrated you wear a classic weight belt. Before they know it their weight belt slips off and its probsbly got 15lbs on it. It down around you ankles, heavy and panic sets because your also managing your inflator. The belt comes off. My instructor points at me to finish the rest while disappearing up into the small ball of light trying to slow their runaway ascent. By the time I finish with the group and swim in both are on pure O2. The instructor has a bunch of broken blood vessels in his eyes (looks horrible). Otherwise his excess smoking and expert level alcohol and story telling the night before have made him immune from the bends LOL!

There is also the fat folk (my category!). They wear the same 14mm of wetsuit and that same dive with the skinny folks. Now due to their weight, at the surface they need a crap ton of lead weight...like 35lbs. They start down. Things are going good for them but around 70ft or so the little warm water BCD no longer displaces enough air to hold them up (because the suits lift has decreased). They are now negative and kicking and sinking and its bad spiral. They need to dump weight but its fixed on their belt. Next thing you know they panic, chuck the belt, do their best to kick upside down all the way up.

I've seen both happen on the same dive.

I always brought a car tire inner tube with heavy line Worked good for the big ones. But I've chased some down to 120ft.

Ocean dives in warm water to 130ft are easy peasy.
 
I learned in an ancient rubber drysuit and had to use 10mm wetsuits, since I was in Monterey Bay and the water was 55 degrees in the Summer!

Later, all the people in the GOM and Atlantic coast laughed at my 10mm suit because they all dove in shorts or a thin jammies.

I was skinny and knew exactly how many weights I needed on my canvas belt. Yeah, I said ancient equipment!
 
iamtheari said:
Definitely, and I don’t even like crab. Where do we landlubbers fly into?
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commercially, BWI. GA, Perhaps Martin airport (named before he partnered with Marietta)?

@Pugs any thoughts?

probably summer time frame, maybe Friday/Sat before Oshkosh.
 
iamtheari said:
Definitely, and I don’t even like crab. Where do we landlubbers fly into?
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Tipton (KFME) would be the easiest. Right off the BW parkway so easy access to downtown and G&M. I have a 4-5 passenger vehicle. Sure we could find some other PoA'ers around for more transport.
 
Sinistar said:
Here's a good scuba lesson.

I made it to Dive Master and stopped there because I had no interest to instruct. I would help an older instructor with many classes each year. My favorite was the summer weekend camping diving trips to the mine pits. As @bflynn mentioned a few deep dives are required for the next certification. We trained under PADI. I think the progression was like:

Open Water
Advanced
Rescue
Master Diver
Dive Master
Instructor
Course Director? (Instructor Instructor)

Then specialties like:

Drift
Boat
Camera
Drysuit
Cavern
Cave
Nitrox
Deco/Tri-Mix
Rebreather (Semi Closed Circuit, Closed Circuit)

...so back to the mine pit dives. The 1st thermocline is around 12ft or so. The temp drops from about +70F to mid 50's. That will cull the warm water divers! There is another farther down in the high 30's.

So the cold requires a very heavy wet suit. The shop would rent 2pc farmer John suits in 7mm. So that 14mm for the bodies trunk.

Now come the problems.

The skinny people go down into the total dark (it is dark at 90ft in a mine pit). That 14mm suit compresses. Since the rental BCDs are not weight integrated you wear a classic weight belt. Before they know it their weight belt slips off and its probsbly got 15lbs on it. It down around you ankles, heavy and panic sets because your also managing your inflator. The belt comes off. My instructor points at me to finish the rest while disappearing up into the small ball of light trying to slow their runaway ascent. By the time I finish with the group and swim in both are on pure O2. The instructor has a bunch of broken blood vessels in his eyes (looks horrible). Otherwise his excess smoking and expert level alcohol and story telling the night before have made him immune from the bends LOL!

There is also the fat folk (my category!). They wear the same 14mm of wetsuit and that same dive with the skinny folks. Now due to their weight, at the surface they need a crap ton of lead weight...like 35lbs. They start down. Things are going good for them but around 70ft or so the little warm water BCD no longer displaces enough air to hold them up (because the suits lift has decreased). They are now negative and kicking and sinking and its bad spiral. They need to dump weight but its fixed on their belt. Next thing you know they panic, chuck the belt, do their best to kick upside down all the way up.

I've seen both happen on the same dive.

I always brought a car tire inner tube with heavy line Worked good for the big ones. But I've chased some down to 120ft.

Ocean dives in warm water to 130ft are easy peasy.
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I fly small airplanes, ride motorcycles, have been knocked off the deck of sailboats by gybing booms, and have run off the side of a mountain with a hang glider strapped to my back. Diving gives me the creeps. No thanks!
 
Matthew said:
Yow. Once you start that takeoff roll you are pretty committed.
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Walk/job/run! But yes, once you go, you go. Not me, but some other dude doing his 1st mountain launch from the same hill. EDIT: Scroll to 1:09, vid was supposed to start there.

 
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I'm doubtful I'd be able to make that launch...with my fear of heights.
I did a tandem hang glide flight once...tow launch (Wallaby Ranch in Florida). No problem doing that. I didn't care for it though.... control inputs all wrong.

I'm late to this thread, not having checked in here in quite a while...but very interesting original question. Something I've wondered about. My niece is married to a Submariner but I've never had the chance to talk shop with him.

Several years back, I was running thin on the biographies I could find... I focused on reading memoirs of WW2 pilots, then moved out to aviators of other eras when I ran out of those..... running out of aviation ones, I got hooked on several WW2 submariner memoirs. I feel like I learned a lot from some of them, they got into details with how targeting systems and operations worked. Good stuff.
 
Can you believe we jumped off of cliffs in the Searles Valley strapped to Rogallo winged bamboo framed kites and lived?

Probably why there is a Part 103 now...
 
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