Do pilots still navigate?

Tantalum said:
Such a bazaar thing to argue over.
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This certainly isn't the first time similar debates have come up, but I really don't know why it does. I don't recall seeing any threads on car sites berating fellow enthusiasts for going on a road trip with a GPS and relying on it yet it seems common amongst aviators.

Tantalum said:
In my opinion a paper sectional backup is a complete waste and is in the same category as carrying around a phone book and a sextant. If someone is genuinely concerned that they might have a quadruple GPS/phone/ipad/430/electrical failure where the sectional in reach is going to save their lives then I'd say your luck has run so thin that this will be the same day you also forget the sectional, or it slipped out of the flight bag and is lodged somewhere under the rear seat. Hopelessly out of reach!

Also.. should such a situation suddenly unfold (GPS satellites go down, ipad overheats, phone battery died, electrical panel fails so you can't pan the 650 map).. can't you still call 121.5? Don't you still have SOME idea of where the heck you are?
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I agree; I don't carry a paper backup and I generally don't carry an electronic backup either, unless you count the phone I always carry but doesn't have any of the charts downloaded to it. I might be able to get enough downloaded to get me out of a bind if I had to but I'm not that concerned because I do enough preflight planning to know the general direction I need to go to get to my destination and know some of the major waypoints along the way. I'm confident I could get by for a long time on most of my trips without any electronic navigation device if the need arose. If someone wants to carry some paper as a backup they're more than welcome to, I don't care, but I view it as more junk floating around an airplane cabin that doesn't need to be there.

What I haven't seen discussed here is that even if you had a 100% gps and electronics failure you probably still have a general idea where you are and the engine won't quit as a result of that failure. The airplane will still fly and odds are high that you can find some airport to land at (in the CONUS anyway) and regroup. Even if you're in IMC at the time you probably know where some better weather is at and you could head in that direction to figure things out.
 
Somedudeintn said:
I use a GPS often but learned to fly with paper charts and a /A plane. While I use the GPS typically to Navigate I’m constantly aware of where my nearest airport it and my current general location. If i had a GPS outage I would likely continue to my destination just looking outside to verify my position against the chart as long as it is VMC. I do carry a paper chart for my local area in case an EMP hits. I update it about once a year.
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I got your /A beat. I did one or two instrument lessons in a /U plane. That sure made a believer in DME out of me. :D Now all three club planes are /G and that /U plane was sold a few year ago. But, back then...

My wife has a sectional open in her lap when we fly across the state of Washington. Now and then I'll ask her where we are and she'll point to a spot on the chart that GPS couldn't beat. We've driven across the state too many times and she has no trouble figuring out where we are, even if I wake her from a nap.

Last week we flew up to look at the few tulips that were blooming (and the many daffodils that were still in bloom) just south of BVS. While the plane is /G I still used the sectional to get CTAF frequencies for airports ahead of us so I didn't have to disturb the GPS. Call me old fashioned, but I still like paper.
 
EdFred said:
Do you have the data to back this up?
Getting lost doesn't cause a crash, unless you're a female pilot out over the Pacific Ocean.

I've flown in your area many times. It does NOT all look the same.
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Technically, that would have been Noonan's fault.
 
Ghery said:
I got your /A beat. I did one or two instrument lessons in a /U plane. That sure made a believer in DME out of me.
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I did 90% of my instrument training in a /U cherokee I owned at the time. Then when I was almost done with training I went and bought a /A equipped bonanza so I finished up in that. Having DME felt like cheating. The same thing happened when I started flying /G equipped airplanes. I still flight planned and flew like I was flying my /A airplane for a while because it just felt too easy but once the ground based navaids started drying up I got over that and started flying direct like everyone else.
 
If an EMP takes out the GPS system, you probably have a lot more to worry about than busting a bravo... :yikes:

Up until recently, I would print a piece of sectional and stash it behind a fuselage tube. But with tablet as primary and phone as secondary (Avare, no other navaids), the odds of losing both are slim enough that I generally don't bother any more, unless I'm deliberately navigating with paper just because. But in most directions from home, there is enough airspace that the reassurance of knowing exactly where is comforting. That's the problem... the highways and rivers that are easiest to follow usually go through all the airspace one doesn't want to take a noisy /X open cockpit biplane.
 
Tantalum said:
..because you came out fairly early on staunchly in the non GPS category with some strong opinions about it. Someone made an innocent comment about how they navigate and you asked if they were with their mom

I think a just in case approach is fine. You should always have an out. Always be situationally aware, and stay ahead of the plane. Having a paper chart on hand though is not the only way to do that. Personally I've had a lot more VOR outages impact me adversely than I have GPS outages. The day of my IR checkride the damn OCN VOR was not operational and it resulted in some quick thinking of a new hold and approach to fly somewhere else.

Part of this is also because people get practically no training on how to actually use a 430/530 or 650/750. They're taught one way, by a CFI requiring they do it all by hand on paper charts, and then they rent the plane on their own and instead of knowing how to enter a flight plan they end up creating user defined way points and all sorts of cockamaymie nonsense or getting themselves in trouble and people get to say "SEE, GPS is bad!!" .. it's all about the training
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please show me where I asked someone if they were with their Mom.
 
WDD said:
But - didn't work out for all of those others who disappeared without a trace, and others whose remains were found. Didn't work for Amelia. Those are not odds that I'm shooting for.

The "do pilots still navigate" assumes that using GPS isn't navigating. Whether you use a compass, a sextant, ADF. Loran, DME, VOR - or even GPS - is still using aids for navigation. It's just how smart do you want to be about it. You don't get brownie points for making things harder than they need to be just because that was they way it was done. Do you have electric lights in your home? Should you not only use candles and whale oil lamps because the electricity might go out?
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It sounds as if you are implying that I insist on flying with a paper chart and DR. I am able to file slash golf with both my planes and use a minimum of three GPS receivers of varying descriptions every time I fly. I am not living in the dark ages as you imply. I just happen to pitch a few pieces of paper within reach that I fully expect that I will never need.
 
MBDiagMan said:
please show me where I asked someone if they were with their Mom.
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Stephen Shore said:
I got my PPL back in 1982 at 18 yrs of age.
MBDiagMan said:
Wow! 18 Hours! That’s gotta be a record! We’re you with your Mom?
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However, looks like there was a misunderstanding due to Stephen editing his post from "18 hrs of age" to "18 yrs of age". If you read things prior to the edit, you're making fun of his typo. But after the edit, it looks like you are making fun of him not acting like a grown-up.
 
MBDiagMan said:
please show me where I asked someone if they were with their Mom.
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It was early on.. but it sort of "set the tone"
MBDiagMan said:
Wow! 18 Hours! That’s gotta be a record! We’re you with your Mom?
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I don't totally care one way or the other. It's an odd thing to argue about. I used to carry paper charts but started feeling ridiculous carrying a 20 lb flight bag with flashlights, batteries, a hood.. all this stuff. All I carry now is headset, iPad, notepad and pen, and PLB (and ofcourse license and medical). I've been flying around this neck the woods for a few hundred hours so know it well. Maybe when I go to OSH this year I'll pack a paper chart and AFD as a super backup..
 
Okay, the Mom comment was because someone said they flew at the age of 18 HOURS. They obviously meant 18 YEARS, but I was making a joke about flying when 18 HOURS old. Would anyone be able to do anything at the age of 18 HOURS unless they were with their Mother?

Good grief fellow! Read!
 
I never carry paper sectionals.
But after thinking over this thread for a while, there is still one scenario I keep paper around: approach plates.
I primarily use my iPad/EFB for shooting approaches.
But since it's the only mechanism I have, I also print out the approaches I'm planning and keep them on my kneeboard, just in case.
It's a little bit of a different scenario: IMC vs VMC.
 
CharlieD3 said:
It's the title of an Air Facts Journal article linked below...

How many of us rely on our EFB and maybe a backup app on our phone or the mounted glass in our cockpit, and don't bother with chart and compass?

As a (c)rusty old pilot, I learned with a chart, a plotter, and an E6B... Before I got my ticket, while on my long XC, I actually circled a water tower to make sure I was on course.

Apparently, many new hopeful pilots going on their check ride, hoping for the DPE to punch their ticket...

I love the convenience of my Avare app but I still have a current chart and have looked at it and gotten all the pertinent info prior to my flights...

Is this not SOP anymore?

https://airfactsjournal.com/2021/04/are-pilots-still-navigating/
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I learned to fly pre-gps. I’ve done the water tower trick and even shot an NDB approach to circling mins during an emergency in a Lance.

That being said, I no longer use paper. We take long 7+ state cross country trips regularly. The pain of having an entire box full of sectionals, low alt charts, approach plates, etc that have to be updated regularly simply doesn’t make sense for me.

If my iPad dies (multiple on board charging available) and my iPhone dies (same) and my IFD550 and my IFD540 and my EX500 (all with charts) all somehow die, I’ll have ATC vector me to an airport. If they aren’t available then I’ll just consider it a very unlucky day and figure something out to get on the ground safely.

No knock on those who do still use paper. To each their own.
 
Adam Weiss said:
I never carry paper sectionals.
But after thinking over this thread for a while, there is still one scenario I keep paper around: approach plates.
I primarily use my iPad/EFB for shooting approaches.
But since it's the only mechanism I have, I also print out the approaches I'm planning and keep them on my kneeboard, just in case.
It's a little bit of a different scenario: IMC vs VMC.
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I see things differently. If you're really in a bind and don't have an approach plate for some reason an ILS is fairly easy to do with a little help from a controller. Or get them to do a surveillance approach...
 
kgruber said:
I am sure of one thing...................drop me ANYWHERE in the 11 western states.............and I could fly home without ANY NAV at all. All I did for 20 years was crisscross that area every day, for the Bon' Marche/Macy's
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Yep. I often angered several FNGs when I could prove I was able to navigate visually for most of a certain Asian country.

It got to be so much fun, I would even guess the MGRS grid for just about anywhere and be within a few km.

Relying on map reference alone has gotten a few people either killed or in big trouble. "Navigating" is more than just following a map...
 
That kind of flying involved KNOWING the area you were flying in and knowing it well! There was an additional weather element that we don’t ordinarily deal with in civilian flying. The additional element is Pb (lead.)
 
I use pilotage all the time in the work airplane, especially going back to the homedrome. Turn final for 16 over the bridge with the lights, follow 95 to get lined up for 34.

I know there are plenty of youtube haters on this board, but this is a good video on the subject of getting back to pilotage, and a somewhat interesting mission using pilotage.

 
Adam Weiss said:
I never carry paper sectionals.
But after thinking over this thread for a while, there is still one scenario I keep paper around: approach plates.
I primarily use my iPad/EFB for shooting approaches.
But since it's the only mechanism I have, I also print out the approaches I'm planning and keep them on my kneeboard, just in case.
It's a little bit of a different scenario: IMC vs VMC.
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If you have a phone, you can always use that as your approach plate backup. Then no guessing about which approaches you need to have printed out. My phone is surprisingly usable as an EFB and approach plate display. I have to squint a bit, though. If GPS system, panel COM, electrical system, EFB tablet, and phone all die at the same time, that's some pretty bad luck goin' on. I'll still have emergency COM. All those concurrent failures are pretty far down the probability chain.
 
I’ve never understood why electronics have to have multiple backups, but when navigating with paper charts no backup is required. I know I’m not the only person who’s had his paper charts depart the airplane in flight.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’ve never understood why electronics have to have multiple backups, but when navigating with paper charts no backup is required.
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I believe it is because paper has a fewer number of failure modes than electronics.
 
asicer said:
I believe it is because paper has a fewer number of failure modes than electronics.
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How many failure modes of your waistband would it take before both belt and suspenders are required? (Along with maybe a piece of rope and some ratcheting straps.)
 
MauleSkinner said:
How many failure modes of your waistband would it take before both belt and suspenders are required? (Along with maybe a piece of rope and some ratcheting straps.)
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at the rate my waistband is expanding, who knows........
 
At times, navigation can be a burden. I was flying a S-76 with a lavish panel. Departed a structure a ways out in the Gulf of Mexico a little after midnight under a full moon. My course was real close to 360. The big dipper was right there in front of me. Located Polaris and rocked back in the seat and enjoyed the next hour home.
 
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asicer said:
I believe it is because paper has a fewer number of failure modes than electronics.
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But "departing the aircraft" is a pretty significant failure mode... "complete loss of functionality" from a reliability engineering standpoint.

Of course, you could drop your phone, too.
 
chemgeek said:
If you have a phone, you can always use that as your approach plate backup. Then no guessing about which approaches you need to have printed out. My phone is surprisingly usable as an EFB and approach plate display. I have to squint a bit, though. If GPS system, panel COM, electrical system, EFB tablet, and phone all die at the same time, that's some pretty bad luck goin' on. I'll still have emergency COM. All those concurrent failures are pretty far down the probability chain.
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Yep. I have the phone on the yoke and pad in the lap and that’s usually where I go to refer to a plate. Occasionally though, my printed and laminated plates are easier to get at and read. I printed and laminated the plates I use commonly and had them laminated. No reason to throw them away.
 
Groundpounder said:
I use pilotage all the time in the work airplane, especially going back to the homedrome. Turn final for 16 over the bridge with the lights, follow 95 to get lined up for 34.

I know there are plenty of youtube haters on this board, but this is a good video on the subject of getting back to pilotage, and a somewhat interesting mission using pilotage.

Click to expand...
There are great YouTube videos, and there are horrid ones!
 
I don’t think it’s about paper vs electronics, but rather pilots getting lazy.
Back when airliners (or corporate) navigated across the country using VOR’s, the pilots had to be engaged in the process. They were always on top of their position simply because they were changing over VOR freqs and so forth.
Hopefully we are all still engaged, thus my earlier post about having airports/VOR’s displayed in the MFD.
 
I have developed a familiarity with the compass and the intended direction of travel.
 
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