Do I keep going?

loch1957 said:
I am sure I'm not the only one thats been here. After two years and 75 hours I still haven't been signed off. I'm good enough to solo any time I want but CFI doesn't think I cant pass checkride. Was there a point that you thought it was time to quit? Ten grand is a lot of money to see no real end. If I was that bad why heck does he let me fly solo. One my problems is theres no CFI here so I have to drive and that adds money to it. I knew it wasn't a cheap hobby when I started. I'm kinda disillusioned guys, help!!
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You have gotten some real good advice.....like picking up the pace, fly more often! to quote...." Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results , is insane.
 
MAKG1 said:
If that's the problem….

We haven't been told, but there is a lot more to flying than navigation, and it seems likely to be something else.

The worst part about flying infrequently is that the various sight pictures go away real fast when you're learning. The sim won't do anything for that at best, and might hurt (sight pictures are different).
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Frequency is the problem in OP's case I agree but have you tried X-plane or FSX lately? They are pretty realistic.

I'll fly to an unfamiliar place in FSX before I go for real and it helps. Many of the landmarks and even the buildings are correct. And it gives you a layout of the field and taxiways.

I solo'd in ten and certificated in about 45, but that was 1976. But I was going every day or every other day in a Piper 140 with only VOR's and radios. When RNAV came out, we thought that was the bee's knees. You could move a VOR and fly direct (kind of). Woo-hoo! :goofy:
 
txflyer said:
Frequency is the problem in OP's case I agree but have you tried X-plane or FSX lately? They are pretty realistic.

I'll fly to an unfamiliar place in FSX before I go for real and it helps. Many of the landmarks and even the buildings are correct. And it gives you a layout of the field and taxiways.

I solo'd in ten and certificated in about 45, but that was 1976. But I was going every day or every other day in a Piper 140 with only VOR's and radios. When RNAV came out, we thought that was the bee's knees. You could move a VOR and fly direct (kind of). Woo-hoo! :goofy:
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Thing about sims is unless you have a really cool setup, you don't get any of the peripheral cues, and they make a bid difference.
 
Henning said:
Thing about sims is unless you have a really cool setup, you don't get any of the peripheral cues, and they make a bid difference.
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The barefoot bandit solo'd, certificated himself, and stole airplanes for joy rides all over the place from training on a sim.

So they're not useless.... :dunno:
 
txflyer said:
The barefoot bandit solo'd, certificated himself, and stole airplanes for joy rides all over the place from training on a sim.

So they're not useless.... :dunno:
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No worries if you don't need to use the planes again.:lol: It's easy to crash easily enough to survive, most planes at uilt to take it and keep you alive with a modicum of energy control. If you want to use it again, that takes a bit more finesse.;)

BTW, I didn't say they were useless, just that they are limited and don't teach the peripheral cues which is where much of the finesse comes from.
 
Don't give up flying. It's a great hobby and you will have fun - once you have the ticket. :yesnod:

I totally understand that the drive to the airport is nervwrecking and that you can't drive more often. When I did my instrument rating, it was 45 minutes each way and I was sick of the drive. Decided to do a finish up course. Having a new pair of eyes looking at me while doing the maneuvers didn't hurt either... :rolleyes:

Therefore I chime in with the others to take a hotel room and fly as much as possible - maybe with your current and another CFI to get you ready for your check ride!! :)
 
Henning said:
75 hrs in 2 years indicates to me a lack of commitment, regardless the reason. If you want the ticket, you need to commit the time and resources to it to get done. Either take a week off and go somewhere where you can fly hard and take the ride at the end of the week, or quit. At your rate of flying you will likely never reach the level of proficiency needed for a check ride.
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This kind of statement needles me. It's a blanket bulls**t statement. And it's a personal attack on plenty of pilots who took two years to get their ticket. Me included, at around 75 hours.

Not everybody has the time, or the good weather, or the financial ability, to fly 3x a week. It's what we do on the off-time that counts. Personally, I had many months where I didn't fly. Sometimes up to three months. I was at home listening to the voice recordings of the lessons, flying the lessons in MSFX, and studying my materials. My instructors were always amazed that I could just show up and fly with little loss of stick ability.

I don't know what the OP's deal is, but resist the urge to go out there and freely insult people without knowing anything about them. Saying people that are in the OP's position are not committed is bulls**t. At least without knowing the reasoning behind it.
 
Henning said:
Thing about sims is unless you have a really cool setup, you don't get any of the peripheral cues, and they make a bid difference.
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This is true. What it's good for is basically a $500 setup to chair fly. You get to practice flows, and instrument work, and navigation. For goodness sakes, don't think landing a plane or the sight picture is going to transfer to real life!

If you read my comment above, I used MSFX with yoke and pedals extensively during my time off, along with listening to voice recordings of the lessons. It helped a lot.
 
woodchucker said:
This kind of statement needles me. It's a blanket bulls**t statement. And it's a personal attack on plenty of pilots who took two years to get their ticket. Me included, at around 75 hours.

Not everybody has the time, or the good weather, or the financial ability, to fly 3x a week. It's what we do on the off-time that counts. Personally, I had many months where I didn't fly. Sometimes up to three months. I was at home listening to the voice recordings of the lessons, flying the lessons in MSFX, and studying my materials. My instructors were always amazed that I could just show up and fly with little loss of stick ability.

I don't know what the OP's deal is, but resist the urge to go out there and freely insult people without knowing anything about them. Saying people that are in the OP's position are not committed is bulls**t. At least without knowing the reasoning behind it.
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Look, I'm not attacking him, the lack of commitment could be unavoidable, but a lesson every two weeks doesn't get you ready for a check ride. This guy is asking for serious opinions, not to have smoke blown up his ass. He wants to know how to stop bleeding money with no result. I gave him two options, go blast off for a week and knock it out, or quit. Those are the two ways he will quit bleeding money, that's it. If he continues on his routine, he will keep bleeding money and never be ready. You may have superb retention, but obviously the OP is more typical or he would have had his ticket already. Cheerleading with false hope may be your thing, that's fine, I'm just being honest with the guy and sometimes that's not so rosy. Either commit the time and funds, or quit, that is the answer to his question. If he flies 6 -8 hrs in a week and takes the checkride at the end of the week, he'll have his ticket most likely, otherwise more than likely he will fly another 75 and not have it, and he would not be unique in that working at his schedule.
 
Henning said:
Look, I'm not attacking him, the lack of commitment could be unavoidable, but a lesson every two weeks doesn't get you ready for a check ride. This guy is asking for serious opinions, not to have smoke blown up his ass. He wants to know how to stop bleeding money with no result. I gave him two options, go blast off for a week and knock it out, or quit. Those are the two ways he will quit bleeding money, that's it. If he continues on his routine, he will keep bleeding money and never be ready. You may have superb retention, but obviously the OP is more typical or he would have had his ticket already. Cheerleading with false hope may be your thing, that's fine, I'm just being honest with the guy and sometimes that's not so rosy. Either commit the time and funds, or quit, that is the answer to his question. If he flies 6 -8 hrs in a week and takes the checkride at the end of the week, he'll have his ticket most likely, otherwise more than likely he will fly another 75 and not have it, and he would not be unique in that working at his schedule.
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Okay, I forgot you can be a bit rough about the edges. I gave the same advice in an earlier post: go knock out a bunch of flights now that he is close.

I was in precisely the same position. Two years, about 75 hours at the checkride. Flying sometimes once a month, or once every three months. It wasn't for lack of commitment though. That's what I take offense to. After about six flights in two weeks, I breezed through the checkride. I'm sure the OP will too if he sticks to his guns. Plenty of students don't have the resources (weather, time, $$$) to make happen what is ideal. Doesn't mean we aren't committed.

As an aside, I am a teacher, and used to also coach soccer and skiing. Some kids need a stick shoved up their ass, some kids need something else. There's more than one way to get a result besides shoving a broom handle up the butt :yes:
 
I hate to admit it, but if your CFI-A is Ok with you soloing locally and on cross-country flights but won't sign you off on the checkride at 75 hours, then s/he may be milking you for more hours. On the other hand, you'd make better progress if you flew more frequently. If you are going through a flight school and there is a chief instructor, I would discuss that with them. When I started flying back in 1990, I fired my first instructor at about 7-8 hours. He was younger and spent more time on the phone about other jobs that in trying to provide me with proper instruction. The next guy was great!
 
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drotto said:
Myself and Marco are proof that once per week can get you a PPL.
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75 hours in two years (104 weeks) is a good bit less than once a week, especially if there are some XC's involved (the average XC being over 2 hours of flight time). That's not much continuity, and not conducive to finishing in a timely manner -- too much "two steps forward, one step back". Someone above said they were in much the same boat, but then flew something like six times in two weeks to get over the final hump -- I think that may be where you need to go. Again, talk this over with your instructor.
 
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^^ more or less what I did... piddled around, then started blocking off 3 hours in the morning... break for lunch, 2-3 hours in the afternoon over a couple weekends a month, and flying on my own in my own airplane.

I'm more of a very close to 80 hour private pilot over 3 years with the bulk of the hours being in the last 6-8 months
 
woodchucker said:
This is true. What it's good for is basically a $500 setup to chair fly. You get to practice flows, and instrument work, and navigation. For goodness sakes, don't think landing a plane or the sight picture is going to transfer to real life!

If you read my comment above, I used MSFX with yoke and pedals extensively during my time off, along with listening to voice recordings of the lessons. It helped a lot.
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Interesting, I thought sight picture was one of the more useful things in sims.

I am only training once a week which is less due to occasional weather issues.

In Flight sims. I practice procedures to ingrain multiple actions, gauge scanning, etc while keeping my head outside the cockpit as much as possible

No, you can't get the feel of flying but you can practice multitasking and when to deploy flaps, pull throttle, etc.

Also to practice attention division during manuevers.

I just pick different planes that feel more real in certain manuevers. Some stall more like my training plane than others.

I think a joystick is fine, TrackIR helps a lot and rudder pedals are a must. just assign controller functions so that they are more or less in the right positions.

No substitute for being in the air but, I think it is way better than nothing if you just can't fly more. The bad habits you might learn can be managed by being mindful of not focusing on your instruments too much and use the outside horizon and such

Even at once a week flying and sometime getting weather scrubbed, I always make progress each week, and I think simming is helping with retention.

When I start getting more into navigation is when I really expect simulation to shine.
 
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Sight picture in this context means what the nose looks like with respect to the horizon during various phases of flight, especially flaring for landing. I've yet to see a sim where it's right, outside the context of a replica cockpit as in a "full flight simulator." You can adjust the "seat," but you don't have anything to gauge it against.

It's also MUCH too easy to spot things.

Most of the time, it's just playing and has no effect on anything, and it CAN be detrimental when you train in wrong things.

I just took a CAP cadet up yesterday, who is an avid simmer. While he knew how to read most of the instruments (except the mag compass!), he flew the plane very timidly, like an airliner, and had to have every single landmark pointed out, even the real obvious one like the major airport in the middle of the city.

MSFS will let you land at Meigs. Don't try that IRL.
 
Keep going.

I flew every once in a while and it worked for me but I didn't have to drive 1.5 hrs. That obviously isn't working for you so, as my instructor always says, if it isn't working do something different. But at the end I did hit it hard and finished up with multiple flights in rapid succession - that does help get you over the finish line.
 
MAKG1 said:
Sight picture in this context means what the nose looks like with respect to the horizon during various phases of flight, especially flaring for landing. I've yet to see a sim where it's right, outside the context of a replica cockpit as in a "full flight simulator." You can adjust the "seat," but you don't have anything to gauge it against.

It's also MUCH too easy to spot things.

Most of the time, it's just playing and has no effect on anything, and it CAN be detrimental when you train in wrong things.

I just took a CAP cadet up yesterday, who is an avid simmer. While he knew how to read most of the instruments (except the mag compass!), he flew the plane very timidly, like an airliner, and had to have every single landmark pointed out, even the real obvious one like the major airport in the middle of the city.

MSFS will let you land at Meigs. Don't try that IRL.
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I see. Personally, I think you can adjust for that, just pick any spot on the cowling to line up with the horizon to keep your altitude during maneuvers. Doesn't matter that much if it's a different spot than in real flight. You are still practicing division of attention in keeping your alt and airspeed while scanning both in and outside, staying coordinated etc.

I think it helps.
 
loch1957 said:
I am sure I'm not the only one thats been here. After two years and 75 hours I still haven't been signed off. I'm good enough to solo any time I want but CFI doesn't think I cant pass checkride. Was there a point that you thought it was time to quit? Ten grand is a lot of money to see no real end. If I was that bad why heck does he let me fly solo. One my problems is theres no CFI here so I have to drive and that adds money to it. I knew it wasn't a cheap hobby when I started. I'm kinda disillusioned guys, help!!
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After some time not 75 hours but.. I felt i was 100% ready. My cfi would not sign me off. I went to florida the guy said why didnt he sign you off you are ready. He signed me off after 3 hours of flight time and passed it easily.

Some flight schools run you to get a lot of money. Be careful.
 
MAKG1 said:
Sight picture in this context means what the nose looks like with respect to the horizon during various phases of flight, especially flaring for landing. I've yet to see a sim where it's right, outside the context of a replica cockpit as in a "full flight simulator." You can adjust the "seat," but you don't have anything to gauge it against.

It's also MUCH too easy to spot things.

Most of the time, it's just playing and has no effect on anything, and it CAN be detrimental when you train in wrong things.

I just took a CAP cadet up yesterday, who is an avid simmer. While he knew how to read most of the instruments (except the mag compass!), he flew the plane very timidly, like an airliner, and had to have every single landmark pointed out, even the real obvious one like the major airport in the middle of the city.

MSFS will let you land at Meigs. Don't try that IRL.
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I like to play on the flight sim. I've been doing IR procedural type things... Tonight was shooting an approach and out of laziness using autopilot... About 100 ft AGL there was a 200 ft tree right on the approach end. I had to turn off autopilot, fly the missed and then land the opposite runway visually because I couldn't get the new RNAV to load in the GPS.

In the end these flight sims are just video games trying to be realistic. If you use them for training think of it as advanced chair flying. Even the $80,000 full motion RedBird sim is far from being realistic.
 
jimson said:
I see. Personally, I think you can adjust for that, just pick any spot on the cowling to line up with the horizon to keep your altitude during maneuvers. Doesn't matter that much if it's a different spot than in real flight. You are still practicing division of attention in keeping your alt and airspeed while scanning both in and outside, staying coordinated etc.

I think it helps.
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I guess you're still presolo.

The "spot" on the cowling moves as you change speed and configuration. Keep it constant like that and you'll lose altitude and bounce landings.

I have ZERO attention inside the airplane in the flare. It does not belong there. And it's minimal on approach. Mainly GUMPS and airspeed.
 
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MAKG1 said:
I guess you're still presolo.

The "spot" on the cowling moves as you change speed and configuration. Keep it constant like that and you'll lose altitude and bounce landings.

I have ZERO attention inside the airplane in the flare. It does not belong there. And it's minimal on approach. Mainly GUMPS and airspeed.
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Like I'm going to change my mind after solo?

I know a lot of the old timer guys can't stand the idea of anyone thinking flight sims can be more than a silly game.

Here's one who believes in it.
http://sportpilottraining.sportaviationcenter.com/

I may not express my ideas well, but I've already seen in practice how it can help in it's limited way.

Better than not flying at all.
 
As long as you understand the limitations there's nothing wrong with sims. As toward keeping "your mind in the game" they are useful, and most of flying is mental.
 
Henning said:
As long as you understand the limitations there's nothing wrong with sims. As toward keeping "your mind in the game" they are useful, and most of flying is mental.
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That is true.

There are so many things to keep track of for a student during maneuvers. Airspeed, altitude, trim, flaps, bank angles, pitch reference to outside and instrument scanning and coordinated flight. It's hard to keep from dropping those balls.

Outside of a plane, how can you practice that multitasking? Not by reading "Stick and Rudder."

You can replicate that kind of division of attention on a sim.

It's helped me in that respect.
 
That hour and a half commute to your lesson ain't helpin any. And then knowing you have an hour and a half drive back ain't helpin any. That is not a recipe for being alert and receptive to learning. Someone mentioned back a ways, take a week off, get a room next to the airport and FLY. Sounds like a good idea to me. Where are you that it's that long a drive to the nearest airport with airplanes and instructors?
 
jimson said:
That is true.

There are so many things to keep track of for a student during maneuvers. Airspeed, altitude, trim, flaps, bank angles, pitch reference to outside and instrument scanning and coordinated flight.

It's helped me in that respect.
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I always promote the use of a sim if you can't fly as often as you would like. I relied on MSFX with yoke and rudders heavily during my training. And it did help immensely. But, definitely be aware of what it won't do for you. Landing is out. You get all of the checklist and pattern flows taken care of, but once you are on short final the sim is worthless. Also, I had one instructor point out that my sim work likely was impeding my VFR flying skills a bit. I had developed a tendency to react more to what the instruments were communicating than what the plane was telling me.
 
Another thing that sims lack is the sound of the air over the airframe. On final I never look at the panel at all, it's all by sight of my target and motion up or down in the windshield, and I gauge my energy by sound, and the sound of the wind is a big part of it.
 
jimson said:
Like I'm going to change my mind after solo?

I know a lot of the old timer guys can't stand the idea of anyone thinking flight sims can be more than a silly game.

Here's one who believes in it.
http://sportpilottraining.sportaviationcenter.com/

I may not express my ideas well, but I've already seen in practice how it can help in it's limited way.

Better than not flying at all.
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I would hope that once you understand how an airplane really flies, you would revise your misplaced belief.

I guessed you were presolo from what you said you learned. It was wrong.
 
woodchucker said:
Landing is out. You get all of the checklist and pattern flows taken care of, but once you are on short final the sim is worthless. Also, I had one instructor point out that my sim work likely was impeding my VFR flying skills a bit. I had developed a tendency to react more to what the instruments were communicating than what the plane was telling me.
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I agree. I use it to try to make procedures second nature. Once I am further in I also think it will help with navigation.
 
MAKG1 said:
I would hope that once you understand how an airplane really flies, you would revise your misplaced belief.

I guessed you were presolo from what you said you learned. It was wrong.
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Ok, thanks for the input. Bye
 
jimson said:
I agree. I use it to try to make procedures second nature. Once I am further in I also think it will help with navigation.
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When people say sims are useful for "procedures," they mean IFR procedures.

The VFR stuff has all the wrong consequences. For instance, have you ever had an engine fail to start due to over priming, draining a weak battery? The big one is that trim is wildly different. And how the hell do you sump a sim?

I was a simmer before I became a pilot, and I overestimated it's value, too. It's generally neutral for primary training, but it can be negative if it gives you bad habits like not trimming or trimming incorrectly.

I know people don't like to hear it's a game, but it is. The stuff you spend the real time on during primary training -- trim/precision, sight picture (especially in the flare), weather (especially vertical winds like orographic turbulence and thermals), spotting traffic and landmarks, and decision making -- are all different.

Steam gauge navigation is generally pretty good except for the endgame (where you have to spot the airport -- always too easy in the sim), but the GPS models range for irritating to you-gotta-be-kidding-me, especially with glass, for home sims (this is an area where those expensive Redbird sims really are better). I did see one desktop sim that gave me a false glideslope, but for the most part, the instruments are too perfect.

At your stage in training, I suspect it will surprise you to hear I can feel a modest updraft in the yoke. That's what good trim does. No desktop yoke gets anywhere near that. You either have a way too stiff spring, or if you remove it, you get a dead zone that would immediately ground a real aircraft.

So, have fun with it, but watch out for potential bad habits, and don't fool yourself that it makes you a better pilot.
 
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MAKG1 said:
When people say sims are useful for "procedures," they mean IFR procedures.

The VFR stuff has all the wrong consequences. For instance, have you ever had an engine fail to start due to over priming, draining a weak battery? The big one is that trim is wildly different. And how the hell do you sump a sim?

I was a simmer before I became a pilot, and I overestimated it's value, too. It's generally neutral for primary training, but it can be negative if it gives you bad habits like not trimming or trimming incorrectly.

I know people don't like to hear it's a game, but it is. The stuff you spend the real time on during primary training -- trim/precision, sight picture (especially in the flare), weather (especially vertical winds like orographic turbulence and thermals), spotting traffic and landmarks, and decision making -- are all different.

Steam gauge navigation is generally pretty good except for the endgame (where you have to spot the airport -- always too easy in the sim), but the GPS models range for irritating to you-gotta-be-kidding-me, especially with glass, for home sims (this is an area where those expensive Redbird sims really are better). I did see one desktop sim that gave me a false glideslope, but for the most part, the instruments are too perfect.

At your stage in training, I suspect it will surprise you to hear I can feel a modest updraft in the yoke. That's what good trim does. No desktop yoke gets anywhere near that. You either have a way too stiff spring, or if you remove it, you get a dead zone that would immediately ground a real aircraft.

So, have fun with it, but watch out for potential bad habits, and don't fool yourself that it makes you a better pilot.
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I don't think you are getting what I am saying. When I say procedures, I mean things I was dropping the ball on because I wasn't used to so much multitasking.

When I started practicing maneuvers on the sim, I got better at dividing my attention to multiple things at once.

Of course, I didn't get an accurate feel for flying, but that wasn't necessary, what was necessary was repetition.

If you think there is no value in that, then I guess we should agree to disagree.
 
jimson said:
I don't think you are getting what I am saying. When I say procedures, I mean things I was dropping the ball on because I wasn't used to so much multitasking.

When I started practicing maneuvers on the sim, I got better at dividing my attention to multiple things at once.

Of course, I didn't get an accurate feel for flying, but that wasn't necessary, what was necessary was repetition.

If you think there is no value in that, then I guess we should agree to disagree.
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Depends what you are repeating. If you are repeating the wrong thing over and over again, you are creating a negative situation.
 
Henning said:
Depends what you are repeating. If you are repeating the wrong thing over and over again, you are creating a negative situation.
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That's why I wouldn't recommend sim practice before one starts taking lessons.
 
Well this thread has suddenly became mute. I flew yesterday and when we were done after 2 hours. I was going to talk to him but he left for few minutes and came back and got me. We filled out the application on IACRA! So Its checkride time. Only bad thing is hes leaving for osh kosh on wed so ill have wait till hes back to take it. I asked him was it normal to take so long and the reply was "yes when you go too long between flights". So im almost done, thanks for replys and encouragement.
 
loch1957 said:
Well this thread has suddenly became mute. I flew yesterday and when we were done after 2 hours. I was going to talk to him but he left for few minutes and came back and got me. We filled out the application on IACRA! So Its checkride time. Only bad thing is hes leaving for osh kosh on wed so ill have wait till hes back to take it. I asked him was it normal to take so long and the reply was "yes when you go too long between flights". So im almost done, thanks for replys and encouragement.
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:confused: Why would you have to wait for him to return? You're signed off, the CFI's part is completed.
 
Well, that's good news.

Good luck.

Henning, it's not at all a bad idea to keep the instructor nearby in case there is a question about logging or training given. Though, that can usually be ironed out before the check ride date.
 
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