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Snorting his way across the USA
Flying IFR in CAVU hardly keeps you proficient. You're just flying VFR on a prescribed route.
Do I file or scud run?
- Thread starter comanchepilot
- Start date
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
There are two parts to being proficient at flying IFR. One of them is flying the airplane by reference to instruments, the other is being proficient in using the system. You can most definitely maintain the use of the system proficiency by filing IFR in VMC.
That said,I generally get enough practice on longer flights. I'd personally do the flight in question VFR myself.
david0tey
Line Up and Wait
Why 900? I thought it was 1000 over "populated" and 500 over "less than populated"?
I love KPHX. The controllers are beyond excellent And at one point I thanked the ground controller for the progressive taxi to which he replied "that's what we're here for good day!" And we pretty much always get right into the bravo for transitions. Oh and he let me cut in front of a southwest 737 as long as I kept my speed up. Ok, 165 it is!
azure
Final Approach
I fly VFR between VLL and 57D at 2500 MSL for fuel routinely, with the ground along the route at 600-800 MSL. I don't consider it scud running in the least. Not having a lot of time to choose a suitable place to put down in case of engine failure is a concern everywhere around Detroit & suburbs, but that doesn't make it scud running. Scud running is flying so low to stay VFR that you risk hitting something. There are no obstacles along that route that you have any chance of getting within even 1000 feet of if you stay 1500 AGL. Going southwest from VLL would be a different story, there you could miss the top of a 1000 ft tower by about 700 feet. I know ATC will not vector you below 2700 MSL in that area.
A fuel stop leg I did VFR last Saturday at 3000 MSL over central IL and western IN felt more like scud running, but that's because the visibility was so bad I was pretty much on the gauges. I thought about asking for a pop-up but didn't because of concerns about embedded cells too young to show up yet on XM.
I agree with going IFR as much as possible unless there's a reason not to. Avoiding weather visually is one reason. It's just not worth the trouble is another, like on pizza runs to 3DA where I know they'll route me to LAYNE at 4000 and keep me up there until I'm north of KFNT.
10-15 miles between neighboring fields? Not worth the trouble. I'd go VFR.
A fuel stop leg I did VFR last Saturday at 3000 MSL over central IL and western IN felt more like scud running, but that's because the visibility was so bad I was pretty much on the gauges. I thought about asking for a pop-up but didn't because of concerns about embedded cells too young to show up yet on XM.
I agree with going IFR as much as possible unless there's a reason not to. Avoiding weather visually is one reason. It's just not worth the trouble is another, like on pizza runs to 3DA where I know they'll route me to LAYNE at 4000 and keep me up there until I'm north of KFNT.
10-15 miles between neighboring fields? Not worth the trouble. I'd go VFR.
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Brad Z
Final Approach
10 miles between airports? That's practically overlapping traffic patterns!
it all about risk tolerance. I have more than a thousand hours flying traffic reporters over the DC area at about 1200 AGL. Flying low was necessary for the airspace, as well as giving the reporter a good opportunity to see the traffic. As such, I maintained a mental database of potential landing spots. I disagree about having no options...you always have options--some are just better than others. The key is to find the survivable ones.
And remember, unless you take off from two mile long runways in the middle of the desert, there's always some point were you're going to be low with few options in the event of engine failure.
Regarding scud running, I consider that a situation where the clouds push you lower and lower. Here you had plenty of outs and a airport never more than five miles away.
comanchepilot
En-Route
Were you flying:
A - C182
B - C206
C- Turbine Helo?
If the answer is C - your MTBF is a lot higher than any fixed wing piston powered aircraft . . .
Sure - the thing about options - You have options - absolutely. School fields. Freeways. Empty streets with telephone poles lining them.
I want an option I'm going to walk away from - THAT is an option to me. None of the options that are generally available over a large city equate with walking away - There is not a golf course between me and Chino. There is the Lake off the end of the 26 complex at POC - then there is the freeway - then there is the 71 freeway - and some railroad tracks for a gear up landing - and the City of Pomona - which few large parks - there are golf courses but only down in Chino Hills - which I'm not flying over anyway -
If I lost an engine south of the 10 Fwy there'd be precious few places I could land and walk away . . .
Everyone - I went VFR there - and coming back the skies had cleared except over POC where it was 1900BKN. Still VFR obviously.
This post was intended to provoke debate -just like the one we are having.
A - C182
B - C206
C- Turbine Helo?
If the answer is C - your MTBF is a lot higher than any fixed wing piston powered aircraft . . .
Sure - the thing about options - You have options - absolutely. School fields. Freeways. Empty streets with telephone poles lining them.
I want an option I'm going to walk away from - THAT is an option to me. None of the options that are generally available over a large city equate with walking away - There is not a golf course between me and Chino. There is the Lake off the end of the 26 complex at POC - then there is the freeway - then there is the 71 freeway - and some railroad tracks for a gear up landing - and the City of Pomona - which few large parks - there are golf courses but only down in Chino Hills - which I'm not flying over anyway -
If I lost an engine south of the 10 Fwy there'd be precious few places I could land and walk away . . .
Everyone - I went VFR there - and coming back the skies had cleared except over POC where it was 1900BKN. Still VFR obviously.
This post was intended to provoke debate -just like the one we are having.
10 miles between airports? That's practically overlapping traffic patterns!
it all about risk tolerance. I have more than a thousand hours flying traffic reporters over the DC area at about 1200 AGL. Flying low was necessary for the airspace, as well as giving the reporter a good opportunity to see the traffic. As such, I maintained a mental database of potential landing spots. I disagree about having no options...you always have options--some are just better than others. The key is to find the survivable ones.
And remember, unless you take off from two mile long runways in the middle of the desert, there's always some point were you're going to be low with few options in the event of engine failure.
Regarding scud running, I consider that a situation where the clouds push you lower and lower. Here you had plenty of outs and a airport never more than five miles away.
azure
Final Approach
Joe, I see a twin in your future.
So, how high would you have gone - for a 10nm flight - if clouds were no factor?
Good question.... Personally I would climb to traffic pattern altitude so I can enter the other airports traffic pattern smoothly.... And I fly a "deathtrap" whos motor could fail at a moments notice..
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Threefingeredjack
En-Route
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Threefingeredjack
Go. No question.
kgruber
Final Approach
The only reason I would file IFR, is that it is the LA basin. And, although I've flow there numerous times, I am not THAT familiar with the area. Filing IFR is just a lot easier.
Put new numbers in the box.......do what you've done a thousand time before.
Put new numbers in the box.......do what you've done a thousand time before.
comanchepilot
En-Route
It is a 10 mile flight............ One traffic pattern overlaps the other one..
if thats the case . . . . some people need to understand a pattern!
35 AoA
Pattern Altitude
if thats the case . . . . some people need to understand a pattern!
lol
"4 miles upwind? Do not pass go, do not collect $200, depart and re-enter son"
JHW
En-Route
in general you're right, but the spreading cancer of windmill farms is a double edged sword. On the one hand they're an obstacle you need to avoid. On the other hand there are so many of them and they are so easy to see, you can use them to navigate visually in some pretty poor conditions.
In general though, I view "scud running" as a just another tool in your toolbox, it has its time and place. I care a lot more about visibility than ceiling. I can't remember the last time the pawnee was higher than 500AGL so it doesn't much matter if there are clouds at 700. And in the beechcraft, leaving home if I'm just trying to get away from a locally scuzzy area to start a trip toward better weather, sometimes I'll run up the river rather than file ifr. In that case I'm headed toward chicago so ifr is a hassle, and I know the river pretty well after fishing it for 20 years.
kgruber
Final Approach
There are a couple of places to sit back and watch some serious scud running.
Sun Valley Friedman, KSUN.........approach gets you to 1790 agl. Many, many of those corporate jets on the ramp have shot the approach at Twin Falls and scud run to Friedman.
Kenmore Air Harbor........just about any crummy day. They have Ops Specs to allow lower than VFR cruise over their water routes. (or, at least, did)
Sun Valley Friedman, KSUN.........approach gets you to 1790 agl. Many, many of those corporate jets on the ramp have shot the approach at Twin Falls and scud run to Friedman.
Kenmore Air Harbor........just about any crummy day. They have Ops Specs to allow lower than VFR cruise over their water routes. (or, at least, did)
But based on that analysis you shouldn't go IFR either since if the fan quits you're left gliding through clouds until the point you break out which puts you essentially where you'd be if flying VFR. So, looks like you're driving!
Personally, I'd fly VFR. For 10 miles the risk is minimal.
if thats the case . . . . some people need to understand a pattern!
I probably should have said Airport Traffic Area instead of pattern since, for all I know both of the fields have a tower........
Bottom line is the OP stated the reported weather was VFR... What's the problem
.... I am out... Thanks for letting me play the game.
Brad Z
Final Approach
D - a ratty old 15,000 hour Cessna 172 with a Diesel conversion bolted on the front.
Ghery
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Ghery Pettit
Another beautiful VFR day in the Pacific Northwe(s)t. That's not scud running. Hope you had a nice flight.
