DL valid for ID?

James331 said:
If I become a millionaire (which I’m always working towards ;) ), I’ll happly take it to the mat with them in every overstep, heck I’d hire a few lawyers to do nothing but push back on anti constitutional violations in government

But I’m not quite there yet
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Being a millionaire is not what it used to be!
 
Clip4 said:
You do realize one of the secondary forms of identification allowed for the Real ID is a Pilot’s license (issued by the US DOT Federal Aviation Administration)

Sound a little circular?
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Yea, like chasing your own tail. And no it's not a valid anything other than for a ramp check. IF, the new pilots certificate makes it out to the street, it will be Real ID compliant and more than likely a FIPS 201 ID, e.g. PIV-5, which is about to be released.

Since the Real ID Act has been pushed back to 2020, it's all a moot point anyway. If they don't push it again, those nonconforming states IDs are not valid for federal purposes. That includes ID for a pilots certificate. Because a pilots certificate is not a public benefit, the Act applies.

Reading is your friend....otherwise you are just blowing smoke in the direction most convenient to your position.
 
James331 said:
I’ve been ramped a couple times, before I had my passport card, shown my normal DL and no fed ever said anything, mainly because based on their own text they can’t.

If you want to talk what law/reg trumps what, the constitution is the top of the stack, and the FAA bypasses many of our most closely held rights in the FAR, if the FAR can trump our constitutional rights, you don’t have the precedence to say I need to read outside of 61.3 for what photo ID I need
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Point 1.... yea, the act isn't in force right now. I'd expect you already know that, but obviously you don't. A state ID, any state is GTG right now. Once it hits, you will have to have the Real ID.

Point 2..... see point one. And don't confuse your "rights" with codified rules or laws. If it's on the books, it's passed the sniff test, for now. What you don't understand is laws criss cross all over others for definitions and such. If Real ID is enacted, and a federal regulation calls for a "drivers license" for a federal purpose, barring a few exceptions, the ID must comply with the other law unless specifically enumerated in the subordinate rule or law.

In 2020, the FAA will be required to comply with the Act wether you agree with it or not. try to argue it's not in some regulatory section and let us know ow that works out. Do you have any idea how many rules, laws, regulations would have to be altered to validate your argument? It's not possible.
 
Clip4 said:
And you really think the FAA, Aopa, EAA, Avweb, and a whole host of other folks aren't going to advise you if you need this?

Before 61.3 is changed, if it is, there is be a notice in the Federal Register. Until then, the sky is not falling.
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It's already been done bro...... obvious you haven't done your research either. You are posting on emotion, not facts. It's in the federal register.
 
@Unit74 So let me get this straight. All this time you have been saying “No, it’s not valid”, but now your are saying “it’s valid now, but it won’t be after 2020”. Correct?
 
Unit74 said:
Point 1.... yea, the act isn't in force right now. I'd expect you already know that, but obviously you don't. A state ID, any state is GTG right now. Once it hits, you will have to have the Real ID.

Point 2..... see point one. And don't confuse your "rights" with codified rules or laws. If it's on the books, it's passed the sniff test, for now. What you don't understand is laws criss cross all over others for definitions and such. If Real ID is enacted, and a federal regulation calls for a "drivers license" for a federal purpose, barring a few exceptions, the ID must comply with the other law unless specifically enumerated in the subordinate rule or law.

In 2020, the FAA will be required to comply with the Act wether you agree with it or not. try to argue it's not in some regulatory section and let us know ow that works out. Do you have any idea how many rules, laws, regulations would have to be altered to validate your argument? It's not possible.
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No, I said you don’t need real ID now, I know this because I have a FAR, I even screenshot it.

And when/if it becomes law my FAR will update and I’ll go from there.

As far as my rights, and that’s not an appropriate use of quotes, they are VERY clearly written and for good reason. Any “law” (see how I did that) that goes against them is invalid, the choice we have as citizens, not subjects, is how far we want to go to stop the attempted violation of that right, is that current fight worth it, and that’s up to the individual.

As I said for me with my current amount of power and money, I’m simply sticking to the FAR, no more or less.

Unit74 said:
It's already been done bro...... obvious you haven't done your research either. You are posting on emotion, not facts. It's in the federal register.
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No, it’s been done when it’s in the FAR.
 
Unit74 said:
In 2020, the FAA will be required to comply with the Act wether you agree with it or not. try to argue it's not in some regulatory section and let us know ow that works out. Do you have any idea how many rules, laws, regulations would have to be altered to validate your argument? It's not possible.
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Everything I've been told at work is we'll still accept either DL. I don't even pay attention to it right now. I bet if you asked most people majority don't even know REAL ID exists.

Ken Ibold said:
Really? Mine just changed over when I renewed my license. Wasn't a big deal at all.
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It's almost always a long line to even get to the one employee working the DL desk. Then you have to hope all the paperwork meets to their own opinion. It took me almost 3 hours just to do a simple renewal and that wasn't even a REAL ID change. My aunt tried to get hers renewed and changed to the new REAL ID and after waiting 3 hours she was told that her paperwork wasn't up to snuff. So most of my family has said screw it. I'll cross that bridge in 2025 when I'm up for renewal.
 
James331 said:
I don’t pay into scams, hence I don’t buy NYs IDs or any of their other products, I travel enough that I don’t have to, and I constantly look for more ways to keep my money outside of NYs government while trying to put money into the community, tipping 0 and paying cash for the tip is just one example.
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Actually I was referring to your DL, not some other state-issued ID. Or do you not drive? :dunno:
 
Folks, this will be a bit long, but let me see if I can untangle this. The Act does indeed say this:

(a) Minimum Standards for Federal Use-
(1) IN GENERAL- Beginning 3 years after the date of the enactment of this division, a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose,
a driver's license or identification card issued by a State to any person unless the State is meeting the requirements of this section.
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BUT, we must also look at how the Act itself defines "official purpose." In Section 201 of the act, we read
(3) OFFICIAL PURPOSE- The term `official purpose' includes but is not limited to accessing Federal facilities, boarding federally regulated
commercial aircraft, entering nuclear power plants, and any other purposes that the Secretary shall determine.
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So, what has the Secretary determined? Well, let's see...

From the Dept of Homeland Security, https://www.dhs.gov/real-id :
The Act established minimum security standards for license issuance and production and prohibits Federal agencies from accepting for certain purposes driver’s licenses and identification cards from states not meeting the Act’s minimum standards. The purposes covered by the Act are: accessing Federal facilities, entering nuclear power plants, and, no sooner than 2016, boarding federally regulated commercial aircraft.
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That's not a broad brush painting all "Federal purposes." It's merely access control for fed facilities, nuke plants, and commercial aircraft.

In fact, there are a few limitations....

Access for activities directly relating to safety and health or life preserving services, to law enforcement, and to constitutionally protected activities, including legal and investigative proceedings will not be affected. Existing agency policies will still apply.

The Act does not require individuals to present identification where it is not currently required to access a Federal facility (such as to enter the public areas of the Smithsonian) nor does it prohibit an agency from accepting other forms of identity documents other than documents from non-compliant states (such as a U.S. passport or passport card).
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Furthermore,...

The Act’s prohibitions do not affect other uses of driver’s licenses or identification cards – including licenses and cards from noncompliant states – unrelated to official purposes as defined in the Act. For example, the Act does not apply to voting, registering to vote, or for applying for or receiving Federal benefits.
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There are only a small number of "official purposes" defined in the Act and by DHS, and identification to satisfy the FAR is NOT one of them.
 
@Half Fast: I noticed those three "purposes" as well on the DHS site. They seem to me to be nothing more than a copy and paste from the definition of "official purpose" that you quoted from the Act. Since that definition does itself use the weasel phrase "but is not limited to", I wouldn't rely too strongly on that. Luckily, as has been said, the Act is not yet in force, and hopefully when it finally is, all states will be in compliance and this whole argument will be moot.
 
azure said:
@Half Fast: I noticed those three "purposes" as well on the DHS site. They seem to me to be nothing more than a copy and paste from the definition of "official purpose" that you quoted from the Act. Since that definition does itself use the weasel phrase "but is not limited to", I wouldn't rely too strongly on that. Luckily, as has been said, the Act is not yet in force, and hopefully when it finally is, all states will be in compliance and this whole argument will be moot.
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The point is that it is the Secretary of Homeland Security that defines any additional purposes. I hate that being so open-ended, but as of today the Sec'y has not defined any purposes beyond those listed in the Act. As the law stands today, a non-compliant DL will still satisfy FAR requirements in 2020.

It's simply incorrect to state unequivocaly that a non-compliant DL won't work for FAR purposes since the Sec'y has not made that determination.
 
azure said:
@Half Fast:Luckily, as has been said, the Act is not yet in force, and hopefully when it finally is, all states will be in compliance and this whole argument will be moot.
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My situation is: my State is compliant since May(?) 2017. My DL expired and was renewed Apr '17. So even though my State is compliant now, my DL is not. I can renew it early and get one that is, but there are a lot of people that aren't aware of this yet.
 
James331 said:
No, I said you don’t need real ID now, I know this because I have a FAR, I even screenshot it.

And when/if it becomes law my FAR will update and I’ll go from there.

As far as my rights, and that’s not an appropriate use of quotes, they are VERY clearly written and for good reason. Any “law” (see how I did that) that goes against them is invalid, the choice we have as citizens, not subjects, is how far we want to go to stop the attempted violation of that right, is that current fight worth it, and that’s up to the individual.

As I said for me with my current amount of power and money, I’m simply sticking to the FAR, no more or less.



No, it’s been done when it’s in the FAR.
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Sometimes they make their own rules and the courts back them. Case in point:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...hat-shields-screeners/?utm_term=.c2f7741407f6
 
Half Fast said:
The point is that it is the Secretary of Homeland Security that defines any additional purposes. I hate that being so open-ended, but as of today the Sec'y has not defined any purposes beyond those listed in the Act. As the law stands today, a non-compliant DL will still satisfy FAR requirements in 2020.

It's simply incorrect to state unequivocaly that a non-compliant DL won't work for FAR purposes since the Sec'y has not made that determination.
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Given that the law is not yet in effect, it doesn't really matter at this point what that list includes and what it doesn't. What matters is what the state of affairs is when it finally goes into effect. As I said, hopefully all states will be compliant by then and we won't even need to have this argument. But if not, then it really depends on what other "official purposes" the Secretary adds to the existing list. Since that's over a year away, all we can do is speculate.

Along with others, I'd be extremely surprised if it didn't ultimately include ID for private pilots.
 
Dave Theisen said:
@Unit74 So let me get this straight. All this time you have been saying “No, it’s not valid”, but now your are saying “it’s valid now, but it won’t be after 2020”. Correct?
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I can't stop you from drinking, but I suggest you slow down a bit. Or, you are sober, but trying to drive a screw in to wet drywall. Either way, nice try.
 
Unit74 said:
Point 1.... yea, the act isn't in force right now. I'd expect you already know that, but obviously you don't. A state ID, any state is GTG right now. Once it hits, you will have to have the Real ID.

Point 2..... see point one. And don't confuse your "rights" with codified rules or laws. If it's on the books, it's passed the sniff test, for now. What you don't understand is laws criss cross all over others for definitions and such. If Real ID is enacted, and a federal regulation calls for a "drivers license" for a federal purpose, barring a few exceptions, the ID must comply with the other law unless specifically enumerated in the subordinate rule or law.

In 2020, the FAA will be required to comply with the Act wether you agree with it or not. try to argue it's not in some regulatory section and let us know ow that works out. Do you have any idea how many rules, laws, regulations would have to be altered to validate your argument? It's not possible.
Click to expand...

Unit74 said:
I can't stop you from drinking, but I suggest you slow down a bit. Or, you are sober, but trying to drive a screw in to wet drywall. Either way, nice try.
Click to expand...

Whatever, just trying to understand what you are actually saying in your own post. You don’t have to be an ass.

I wasn’t even disagreeing with you. Just trying to get the right answer
 
Unit74 said:
It's already been done bro...... obvious you haven't done your research either. You are posting on emotion, not facts. It's in the federal register.
Click to expand...

Maybe you could help us all out with a link to the Federal Registry FAA changes to 61.3?
 
The state of Washington has both compliant and non-compliant DLs. Naturally, like any good bureaucracy, the DOL charges more for the compliant version. As long as I can keep renewing my non-compliant one, I will. I travel internationally several times a year, so my passport is always up to date. Damned government, always looking for useless ways to gouge more money out you.
 
Hmmm...my passport and global entry card expire next year, but my license doesn't expire until 2023. I'm not traveling for work much anymore, so I guess I'm getting an updated drivers license soon.
 
Unit74 said:
It's in the federal register.
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Are you saying that they posted a notice of proposed rulemaking (NPRM) reflecting a change to the existing rule in the CFR? Do you happen to have a cite?
 
Half Fast said:
Folks, this will be a bit long, but let me see if I can untangle this. The Act does indeed say this:



BUT, we must also look at how the Act itself defines "official purpose." In Section 201 of the act, we read


So, what has the Secretary determined? Well, let's see...

From the Dept of Homeland Security, https://www.dhs.gov/real-id :


That's not a broad brush painting all "Federal purposes." It's merely access control for fed facilities, nuke plants, and commercial aircraft.

In fact, there are a few limitations....




Furthermore,...




There are only a small number of "official purposes" defined in the Act and by DHS, and identification to satisfy the FAR is NOT one of them.
Click to expand...


Thank you. Saves me the hassle of doing it myself.
 
So I have both read the original bill, the codified law and also some documents published by both TSA and the FAA on the REAL ID Act. I also spoke with an attorney who is well familiar with the law. Here is what my bottom line is...

The Act does not apply specifically to a pilots license, and any DL will work, even after the act is fully in place. However, the FAA has deferred to TSA as to what is an acceptable form of ID and for what purpose because of the open ended "as directed by the Director of Homeland Security" language. TSA wants the enhanced DL for access to secure areas of airports. This is where it gets funky and there is no established rule or policy yet specifically for GA ramps.

So if TSA says it must be enhanced for the airport ramp access, and the airport is under TSA authority, which it would be if it was receiving federal funding, it would be reasonable for the FAA to create a rule that if you are on an airport of this type that REAL ID would be necessary to access it, then it would also be reasonable to require REAL ID for verification of a pilots license. None of that has happened though, and it was doubtful it specifically would given that FAA is already changing over the certificates to an HSPD-12 approved ID card for pilots.

So yes, I am wrong in saying REAL ID will be required after 2020 for the DL requirement in conjunction with the certificate. But, I say but, it is not beyond the scope of TSA General Counsel opine in the affirmative and thus, to advise the FAA on the matter. So who knows what will happen.
 
TSA has accepted my Prague long-term metro (public transport) pass as ID (WOW)... (I lived in the Czech Republic for 10+ years) but I keep my passport card with my certificate. They are the same size and fit nicely in a pouch with my medical that I keep in my flight bag.

Clip4 said:
Congress also passed a law in 2004 ordering the FAA to have photographs on pilot certificates. Does yours have a photo? Then you better stay on the ground.
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I look quite old in the picture on my Pilot Certificate and some other guy is on there with me.
 
Unit74 said:
nope. You are wrong. Straight up. Learn to read law and how one law effects another. I've read the law, as written and codified, cover to cover, numerous times. Your non-compliant ID is invalid for any federal purpose. A pilots certificate is a federal action. It does not apply. Do you not see the irony in your arguements? The whole reason the real ID Act was drafted was because of 9/11. Are you guys that dense you can't see why they passed it? If there was any one thing it would apply to it would be a pilots certificate..... it's an anti terrorism Act. Gawd it's like pulling teeth......
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Unit74 said:
So I have both read the original bill, the codified law and also some documents published by both TSA and the FAA on the REAL ID Act. I also spoke with an attorney who is well familiar with the law. Here is what my bottom line is...

The Act does not apply specifically to a pilots license, and any DL will work, even after the act is fully in place. However, the FAA has deferred to TSA as to what is an acceptable form of ID and for what purpose because of the open ended "as directed by the Director of Homeland Security" language. TSA wants the enhanced DL for access to secure areas of airports. This is where it gets funky and there is no established rule or policy yet specifically for GA ramps.

So if TSA says it must be enhanced for the airport ramp access, and the airport is under TSA authority, which it would be if it was receiving federal funding, it would be reasonable for the FAA to create a rule that if you are on an airport of this type that REAL ID would be necessary to access it, then it would also be reasonable to require REAL ID for verification of a pilots license. None of that has happened though, and it was doubtful it specifically would given that FAA is already changing over the certificates to an HSPD-12 approved ID card for pilots.

So yes, I am wrong in saying REAL ID will be required after 2020 for the DL requirement in conjunction with the certificate. But, I say but, it is not beyond the scope of TSA General Counsel opine in the affirmative and thus, to advise the FAA on the matter. So who knows what will happen.
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Well, I’m glad that you learned to read law. It ironic that you were the one too dense to understand what the law said. I hope you can still eat alright since all of your teeth were pulled. I admit that it took some character to come back and admit that you were wrong after acting like such an ass about it earlier.
 
Wheels said:
Well, I’m glad that you learned to read law. It ironic that you were the one too dense to understand what the law said. I hope you can still eat alright since all of your teeth were pulled. I admit that it took some character to come back and admit that you were wrong after acting like such an ass about it earlier.
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The guy admitted he was wrong. I find it low class to kick the guy after he said “I was wrong”.
I think you should just lighten up a bit.
 
This reminds me of when my wife heard about the whole "real ID" thing. Next time we flew, she showed her military dependant's ID card. The TSA guy wouldn't accept it. He said that because the ID card wasn't one of the newer digital military ID cards, and the corner was (ever so slightly) starting to delaminate that it was not a proper form of identification. She showed her old, unacceptable driver's license and he let her through with stern looks and a warning. We now carry passports when we fly.

"Zee Papars pleess!"
 
Palmpilot said:
Being a millionaire is not what it used to be!
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Being a millionaire is only a couple of down days on Wall street away from the poor house. Now, you either have at least a couple Mil in the bank, or you're slum'n it wit da rest of us!
 
Unit74 said:
Learn to read law and how one law effects another. ... Do you not see the irony in your arguements? ... Are you guys that dense Gawd it's like pulling teeth......
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Irony?

How about a post, written in bad English, that berates the reader for being stupid.

Edit: I just noticed you admitted you were wrong. Thank you for that.
 
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The dumbest thing about all of these silly plastic cards, is that they’re (whomever “they” might be in any particular case) are just going to look you up in a database anyway, because a number of these cards, certificates, whatever plastic you might have, are revocable.

Therefore carrying all the plastic is just dumb. The plastic isn’t the controlling source of information of current validity of any of them, the databases are.

Welcome to the computerized world.

Even R&W mentioned it here once long ago, that you won’t find an FAA inspector ramping anybody without access to their tablets or laptops to do database lookups.

Nobody with more than two brain cells to run together doesn’t know the stupid cards can all be faked anyway. They add crap to the cards to avoid forgeries all the time, and five minutes after the cards hit the streets, the forgers have looked them over and set s new price on the black market to make one.
 
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