Diverted to PTK again (long)

azure

azure

Final Approach
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Messages
8,302
Location
Varmint Country
Display Name
Display name:
azure
Today looked like a great day to go shoot approaches in actual. I hadn't done that in 3 months and was overdue. The weather was hovering around high IFR/low MVFR but was forecast to lift to VFR in a couple of hours so I figured I had a narrow window to make good. So I filed to FNT with "multiple approaches" in the remarks, filed a separate plan for the return flight, topped the tanks, and listened again to the AWOS. It was now solidly IFR, with a SCT layer at 500 feet (the MDA for the approach back into home base). Hmm.

So I taxied to the terminal to go back inside and think about this some more. I waited for about a half hour. It was OVC005 for a while, then lifted to BKN007 BKN010. The vis was never less than 5sm. Seemed like things were improving.

Taxied to the run-up area, finished my runup, and it started to rain. Radar on ForeFlight showed just a small area of light rain. I called for my clearance, got my release, negotiated a window in 10 minutes to give the rain a chance to stop. Now the AWOS was reporting +RA, vis down to 2 miles. I let my release expire and then called back about 10 minutes later when the rain had died down. The vis was still 2 miles but the ceiling was higher, SCT007 BKN010. This time I was able to get off, but on climbing out I noticed that there was already some scud below 500 AGL that the AWOS was not seeing. Too late to change my mind now, I was committed. It would not have been wise to try to divert back home so soon, and the forecast said things would improve, so I followed my game plan. Still, I monitored the AWOS periodically. While I was up at FNT the AWOS was again saying OVC006 to OVC008, vis 2 miles. Marginally above minimums, but I've made it in before in conditions like that.

I shot two approaches at FNT, the ILS 27 and the RNAV 27. Bases were about 800 AGL there and the vis was excellent below the clouds. Just before turning inbound on the RNAV, I dialed in the AWOS back home at VLL to make sure I could get in. That's when my heart sank. Now it was SCT003 BKN010, vis 1.25. It was going LIFR. The ceiling at PTK was hovering between 400 and 600 feet. So instead of picking up a clearance for my filed return flight, I asked for a clearance to PTK and started praying that I'd be able to get in there. After missing the RNAV I was cleared to PTK via fly heading 180, climb and maintain 4000. It was solid IMC the whole way. I was given the ILS 9R and told to maintain best forward speed for a regional jet behind me. Great. I did the best I could, delayed putting down the gear until I could see the ground. Before intercepting the LOC I was fleetingly between layers with a "foam mattress" of scud underneath that seemed to be a LONG way down. Not to worry, I broke out around 500 AGL, the jet was still apparently a way back, and I landed without difficulty.

I asked for taxi to PAC, where I left my plane once before. There I met a Mooney pilot who had just gone missed at VLL. He was returning home from GA and had also been fooled by the abysmally inaccurate forecast. He said that at MDA he was still solidly in the clouds with only a few holes underneath. The AWOS was reporting 1 mile vis, OVC005. It was 1700 local, DTW TRACON's official "sunset" time is 1815 and they won't clear you for the RNAV 9 into VLL after a half hour before "sunset" because the procedure is NA at "night". Never mind that their official "sunset" time is an hour early (EST/EDT error), it is what it is. We waited a half hour or so and realized that things weren't going to improve in time, so we left our planes at PAC and begged a ride back to VLL from a friendly local CFII.

Oh yes, back home I saw that it was clearing up a little. Vis 7 miles, BKN-OVC007. Grrr. If the approach was legal to fly at night, my plane would be safely in its own hangar. :mad2:

Grrr. :mad: This is the SECOND time this year that I've had to leave my plane at PTK because of deteriorating conditions. Only the first time that I've had to do that because the field is closed to IFR arrivals at night, but I'm guessing it won't be the last.

On the plus side I got some sorely needed hard IFR practice, shook off all the rust, and got to log 1.0 actual and 3 approaches out of the deal. I guess that makes it worth it. :)
 
Last edited:
azure said:
Today looked like a great day to go shoot approaches in actual. I hadn't done that in 3 months and was overdue. The weather was hovering around high IFR/low MVFR but was forecast to lift to VFR in a couple of hours so I figured I had a narrow window to make good. So I filed to FNT with "multiple approaches" in the remarks, filed a separate plan for the return flight, topped the tanks, and listened again to the AWOS. It was now solidly IFR, with a SCT layer at 500 feet (the MDA for the approach back into home base). Hmm.

So I taxied to the terminal to go back inside and think about this some more. I waited for about a half hour. It was OVC005 for a while, then lifted to BKN007 BKN010. The vis was never less than 5sm. Seemed like things were improving.

Taxied to the run-up area, finished my runup, and it started to rain. Radar on ForeFlight showed just a small area of light rain. I called for my clearance, got my release, negotiated a window in 10 minutes to give the rain a chance to stop. Now the AWOS was reporting +RA, vis down to 2 miles. I let my release expire and then called back about 10 minutes later when the rain had died down. The vis was still 2 miles but the ceiling was higher, SCT007 BKN010. This time I was able to get off, but on climbing out I noticed that there was already some scud below 500 AGL that the AWOS was not seeing. Too late to change my mind now, I was committed. It would not have been wise to try to divert back home so soon, and the forecast said things would improve, so I followed my game plan. Still, I monitored the AWOS periodically. While I was up at FNT the AWOS was again saying OVC006 to OVC008, vis 2 miles. Marginally above minimums, but I've made it in before in conditions like that.

I shot two approaches at FNT, the ILS 27 and the RNAV 27. Bases were about 800 AGL there and the vis was excellent below the clouds. Just before turning inbound on the RNAV, I dialed in the AWOS back home at VLL to make sure I could get in. That's when my heart sank. Now it was SCT003 BKN010, vis 1.25. It was going LIFR. The ceiling at PTK was hovering between 400 and 600 feet. So instead of picking up a clearance for my filed return flight, I asked for a clearance to PTK and started praying that I'd be able to get in there. After missing the RNAV I was cleared to PTK via fly heading 180, climb and maintain 4000. It was solid IMC the whole way. I was given the ILS 9R and told to maintain best forward speed for a regional jet behind me. Great. I did the best I could, delayed putting down the gear until I could see the ground. Before intercepting the LOC I was fleetingly between layers with a "foam mattress" of scud underneath that seemed to be a LONG way down. Not to worry, I broke out around 500 AGL, the jet was still apparently a way back, and I landed without difficulty.

I asked for taxi to PAC, where I left my plane once before. There I met a Mooney pilot who had just gone missed at VLL. He was returning home from GA and had also been fooled by the abysmally inaccurate forecast. He said that at MDA he was still solidly in the clouds with only a few holes underneath. The AWOS was reporting 1 mile vis, OVC005. It was 1700 local, DTW TRACON's official "sunset" time is 1815 and they won't clear you for the RNAV 9 into VLL after a half hour before "sunset" because the procedure is NA at "night". Never mind that their official "sunset" time is an hour early (EST/EDT error), it is what it is. We waited a half hour or so and realized that things weren't going to improve in time, so we left our planes at PAC and begged a ride back to VLL from a friendly local CFII.

Oh yes, back home I saw that it was clearing up a little. Vis 7 miles, BKN-OVC007. Grrr. If the approach was legal to fly at night, my plane would be safely in its own hangar. :mad2:

Grrr. :mad: This is the SECOND time this year that I've had to leave my plane at PTK because of deteriorating conditions. Only the first time that I've had to do that because the field is closed to IFR arrivals at night, but I'm guessing it won't be the last.

On the plus side I got some sorely needed hard IFR practice, shook off all the rust, and got to log 1.0 actual and 3 approaches out of the deal. I guess that makes it worth it. :)
Click to expand...
Sounds like fun except for the getting stranded part. PTK to VLL is only 12-13 nm but at least a half hour by car IIRC. You made several good choices but one I'm not fond of. Specifically the decision to leave the gear up on the approach because ATC asked for best forward speed. IMO that's asking for an inadvertent gear up landing (which you did manage to avoid). In many retracts (including the 177RG I think) the difference in time to fly from the FAF to the runway is rather small and getting below Vlo while descending on the GS can be difficult and distracting at a critical time. If I were faced with the same scenario I'd put the gear down at the FAF and fly the approach at Vle until a few hundred AGL.

Might be worth a letter to ATC asking why NA at night means no approach an hour and a half before official night time.
 
Yeah, it's not something I plan to make a habit of. This time I was very aware that I was delaying, and also that I was coming down the glideslope a lot faster than I normally do. As soon as I started seeing holes in the undercast, I slowed to my "safe Vle" (15 kts below published) and put 'er down. You're right though, it was distracting and destabilized my approach a bit.

There is no difference between Vle and Vlo AFAIK in the 177RG.

I've been through this rigmarole with DTW App before, on the phone. They are given the official time of sunset in standard time but are not allowed for some reason to convert it to daylight time. It's actually worse than you say since "night" is defined as a half hour AFTER sunset and they are using a half hour BEFORE a sunset that is already an hour before actual sunset time. When I talked to them, they said I was right but they couldn't do anything without consulting the FAA. That was in the spring. Back in July when sunset was 2100 EDT, I was told they couldn't clear me for the approach at something like 1945.

I guess it's possible they've corrected the error more recently, but a local CFII reported being denied approach clearance for the same reason less than a month ago.
 
Last edited:
azure said:
Yeah, it's not something I plan to make a habit of. This time I was very aware that I was delaying, and also that I was coming down the glideslope a lot faster than I normally do. As soon as I started seeing holes in the undercast, I slowed to my "safe Vle" (15 kts below published) and put 'er down. You're right though, it was distracting and destabilized my approach a bit.

There is no difference between Vle and Vlo AFAIK in the 177RG.

I've been through this rigmarole with DTW App before, on the phone. They are given the official time of sunset in standard time but are not allowed for some reason to convert it to daylight time. It's actually worse than you say since "night" is defined as a half hour AFTER sunset and they are using a half hour BEFORE a sunset that is already an hour before actual sunset time. When I talked to them, they said I was right but they couldn't do anything without consulting the FAA. That was in the spring. Back in July when sunset was 2100 EDT, I was told they couldn't clear me for the approach at something like 1945.

I guess it's possible they've corrected the error more recently, but a local CFII reported being denied approach clearance for the same reason less than a month ago.
Click to expand...
If you can get to the right person in the FAA this could probably be resolved. Ron Levy might know where to start.
 
gismo said:
If you can get to the right person in the FAA this could probably be resolved. Ron Levy might know where to start.
Click to expand...
There might be a chance it will be unnecessary. One of the assistant managers at VLL has been heavily on the airport manager's case to get the OCS penetration issues resolved so the FAA will reopen the approach at night. He told me today that the FAA was flight testing the approach last week. It's way too early to celebrate, but he took it as a hopeful sign.
 
IFR at mins into VLL at night? Not my first choice.
 
Last edited:
I came back from KARR last Sunday night and ended up at PTK instead of 57D (home base for my RV7A). The weather at VLL was reported as 1900 OVC (FF with Stratus) but when I listened to the AWOS it said 700!! And it was 10 pm so no chance of an approach.
When I landed at PTK the controller said there were a couple of planes from Troy who couldn't get in there. Not surprised one was you Liz :)
I had waited all day for the wx to move across MI, and took off when PTK went VFR, figuring by the time I got there it would have moved far enough to let me get into Ray (57D - no approach). Wrong! Mother Nature still has the last word.
I also have been bugging the airport manager about getting the approach restriction into VLL removed. I doubt it does any good but makes me feel better :rolleyes:
 
I used to fly into KVLL twice a month to visit customers and family. But since then they have lost their courtesy car and I got an up close and personal view of the lack of off field landing areas around that airport which might spook me a little with night IFR approaches in a single at mins. But the later is on me.

Been flying into KPTK since then... plenty of courtesy cars. I'd also have an issue if I was based at KVLL if it didn't have a good night and day approach. Those of you based there might want to remind the manager lessor services at KVLL may have an economic impact if folks start to move to KPTK.

That said, I love KVLL. And if anyone is interested, I have a $1000 van I'd sell you guys for a courtesy car. It even comes equipped with an already illuminated check engine light. :D
 
<waves at Dennis> :)

Jeff, the lack of off field landing areas is just part of the VLL experience. It's no less an issue on every night takeoff than coming in IFR. The reason they made the RNAV NA at night is surface penetrations and lack of a survey for the VGSI. I think the VGSI is now NOTAMed nonstandard. I'm not hopeful they'll be able to do anything about the surface penetrations, it's trees, power lines, and a tower. Take a look at the ODP for 27, you need a climb gradient of 476 ft/nm to 1500. (I think that's still in the NOTAMs.) The county doesn't have any authority to cut the trees and you can forget about the p-lines.

The only hope might be getting an exception based on the VGSI being recalibrated for a steeper descent (I think it's 4 degrees now). But I don't know if the FAA makes exceptions like that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top