Disturbing new trend?

[danhagan]

This past weekend I took the AC out just for exercise (oil warming, battery, etc.) from my field Dona Ana NM 5T6 to Las Cruces NM KLRU.

Approaching Las Cruces by radio traffic I am estimating 4 AC in or near the pattern. In reality: One inbound, one "helpful" codger on the ground attempting to act as ATC and one in the pattern. The one in the pattern has two pilots, both using different descriptions of the same AC (one using N12345 and the other as "blue&white Cessna") for their position calls.

Upon returning to the home drome. The jump planes are out (no problem), the meat bombs are landing south of the field (no problem) and a twin Cessna is doing the EXACT same as the AC in Las Cruces.

Request: If you're flying with someone, use the same AC description on position calls please .... thanks.

 

[BigBadLou]

I had to recently explain to a pilot friend why I don't bother using my whole five-mile-long tail number at untowered fields. He was not getting the hint so I used plain English "nobody gives a s*it" with a huge grin. I think he got it.
The whole thing came about when I let him make radio calls while I was flying.
I explained to him "Cherokee taking off rwy 13" is plenty.
"Cherokee 123456789 taking off rwy 13" is overkill.
"Green-white Cherokee taking off rwy 13" is most helpful.
Some pilots grow up at C or D towered fields and don't get exposed to G fields much.

 

[Zeldman]

I'm the same....twin Cessna 123 departing runway 8 Las Cruces....but I wasn't flying there this month or last month.

A guy I work with here has flown most of his life in rural Alaska and still insist on using Cessna November 12345 etc.... even when departing from the beach. Not to even mention "any traffic please advise"....even on the beach. About half the planes here do not have or do not use a radio so it's a totally useless call.

 

[ETres]

I'd bet most of us use our N# at non-towered fields because that's how we were taught (as was I).

 

[JC150]

I was also taught to use the whole N-Number until I heard someone say "Blue and white Skyhawk". Much more helpful. Today I don't use my tail number, I just use the color and model of aircraft.

 

[OverTQ]

I find lengthy airplane descriptions in lieu of standard phraseology to be annoying. I don't care what color your plane is, I look for a white and blue plane the exact same way that I look for a white and red plane.

The idea is to have a brief and unique callsign so two different aircraft aren't using the same callsign. Model ("Skyhawk" or "Cub") and a few numbers serves that purpose well.

 

[RyanShort1]

I generally figure if you aren't using your N-number its because you don't want your actions traced.

 

[James331]

I generally figure if you aren't using your N-number its because you don't want your actions traced.

Or because it's pointless.

N123AB departing runway 01, ok I know a aircraft of some sort is taking off, guess since he have his full tail I could run him in the database while I'm inbound.



skyhawk AB departing runway 01, ok now I know what to look for and the speeds/climb to expect

I just give my type and the last two off my tail, Amphib blah blah, so far so good.

Million ways to skin the cat, just as long as it's short, consistent and to the point

 

[Jim Logajan]

I'll volunteer to be the kill joy this time around, but only because I'd hate for anyone here to become FCC road kill. So:

If you don't include the full N-number or the aircraft type and last 3 characters of the N-number(*) then you are violating FCC regulations (but not FAA regulations so far as I know.) If you want to also include the color of your airplane or your underwear (which are about equally relevant to me when I'm more than half a mile away) to each transmission then feel free if you think it helps.

For aircraft stations, these are the official radio transmission identification rules, which should look familiar to anyone who has read the relevant sections of the FAA AIM (the following is quoted from http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx....95.11&idno=47):

Title 47: Telecommunication
PART 2—FREQUENCY ALLOCATIONS AND RADIO TREATY MATTERS; GENERAL RULES AND REGULATIONS
Subpart D—Call Signs and Other Forms of Identifying Radio Transmissions
§ 2.301 Station identification requirement.

Each station using radio frequencies shall identify its transmissions according to the procedures prescribed by the rules governing the class of station to which it belongs with a view to the elimination of harmful interference and the general enforcement of applicable radio treaties, conventions, regulations, arrangements, and agreements in force, and the enforcement of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended, and the Commission's rules.
​

Title 47: Telecommunication
PART 87—AVIATION SERVICES
Subpart C—Operating Requirements and Procedures
§ 87.107 Station identification.

(a) Aircraft station. Identify by one of the following means:

(1) Aircraft radio station call sign.
(2) The type of aircraft followed by the characters of the registration marking (“N” number) of the aircraft, omitting the prefix letter “N.” When communication is initiated by a ground station, an aircraft station may use the type of aircraft followed by the last three characters of the registration marking. Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, an aircraft being moved by maintenance personnel from one location in an airport to another location in that airport may be identified by a station identification consisting of the name of the company owning or operating the aircraft, followed by the word “Maintenance” and additional alphanumeric characters of the licensee's choosing.
(3) The FAA assigned radiotelephony designator of the aircraft operating organization followed by the flight identification number.
(4) An aircraft identification approved by the FAA for use by aircraft stations participating in an organized flying activity of short duration.
​

(*) The FCC regulations only seem to allow the use of the aircraft type plus last 3 characters of the registration number when someone on the ground initiates communications, which means all us making our pattern calls per the FAA AIM at uncontrolled fields would seem to be FCC outlaws.

 

[Jay Honeck]

The single most useless description of an aircraft in the pattern is "Experimental". We were taught to say "Experimental November 14 echo golf", which we do -- but "experimental" is such a fuzzy, meaningless description that I often cringe when I do so.

"RV 14 Echo Golf" is better. "Red RV" is better still. Nevertheless, after two decades of flying I have a VERY hard time saying that.

 

[James331]

I'll volunteer to be the kill joy this time around, but only because I'd hate for anyone here to become FCC road kill. So:

If you don't include the full N-number or the aircraft type and last 3 characters of the N-number(*) then you are violating FCC regulations (but not FAA regulations so far as I know.) If you want to also include the color of your airplane or your underwear (which are about equally relevant to me when I'm more than half a mile away) to each transmission then feel free if you think it helps.

For aircraft stations, these are the official radio transmission identification rules, which should look familiar to anyone who has read the relevant sections of the FAA AIM (the following is quoted from http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx....95.11&idno=47):

Title 47: Telecommunication
PART 2—FREQUENCY ALLOCATIONS AND RADIO TREATY MATTERS; GENERAL RULES AND REGULATIONS
Subpart D—Call Signs and Other Forms of Identifying Radio Transmissions
§ 2.301 Station identification requirement.

Each station using radio frequencies shall identify its transmissions according to the procedures prescribed by the rules governing the class of station to which it belongs with a view to the elimination of harmful interference and the general enforcement of applicable radio treaties, conventions, regulations, arrangements, and agreements in force, and the enforcement of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended, and the Commission's rules.
​

Title 47: Telecommunication
PART 87—AVIATION SERVICES
Subpart C—Operating Requirements and Procedures
§ 87.107 Station identification.

(a) Aircraft station. Identify by one of the following means:

(1) Aircraft radio station call sign.
(2) The type of aircraft followed by the characters of the registration marking (“N” number) of the aircraft, omitting the prefix letter “N.” When communication is initiated by a ground station, an aircraft station may use the type of aircraft followed by the last three characters of the registration marking. Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, an aircraft being moved by maintenance personnel from one location in an airport to another location in that airport may be identified by a station identification consisting of the name of the company owning or operating the aircraft, followed by the word “Maintenance” and additional alphanumeric characters of the licensee's choosing.
(3) The FAA assigned radiotelephony designator of the aircraft operating organization followed by the flight identification number.
(4) An aircraft identification approved by the FAA for use by aircraft stations participating in an organized flying activity of short duration.
​

(*) The FCC regulations only seem to allow the use of the aircraft type plus last 3 characters of the registration number when someone on the ground initiates communications, which means all us making our pattern calls per the FAA AIM at uncontrolled fields would seem to be FCC outlaws.

Has the FCC ever actually brought and won a case against a pilot for this?

What can they do anyway?

 

[timwinters]

N123AB departing runway 01, ok I know a aircraft of some sort is taking off, guess since he have his full tail I could run him in the database while I'm inbound.

skyhawk AB departing runway 01, ok now I know what to look for and the speeds/climb to expect

I just give my type and the last two off my tail, Amphib blah blah, so far so good.

I'd be surprised if any pilot who is unfamiliar with your plane would understand that "AB" is a tail number reference.

My first few calls are "Skylane5057D". Not much effort, provides the info needed, and is FCC legal. Subsequent calls (turning base, final, clear, etc.) are simply "57D," legal or not.

 

[James331]

I'd be surprised if any pilot who is unfamiliar with your plane would understand that "AB" is a tail number reference.

My first few calls are "Skylane5057D". Not much effort, provides the info needed, and is FCC legal. Subsequent calls (turning base, final, clear, etc.) are simply "57D," legal or not.

I was just using thst as a example just as well could have been Mooney Tango Foxtrot.

 

[rocketflyer84]

If you don't include the full N-number or the aircraft type and last 3 characters of the N-number(*) then you are violating FCC regulations

The regulation pasted in to justify this statement doesn't even agree with this...

Unless someone can point to an actual case of the FCC busting someone for not using the tail number in every traffic transmission at an uncontrolled airport then this is a moot issue.

 

[yakdriver]

The single most useless description of an aircraft in the pattern is "Experimental". We were taught to say "Experimental November 14 echo golf", which we do -- but "experimental" is such a fuzzy, meaningless description that I often cringe when I do so.

"RV 14 Echo Golf" is better. "Red RV" is better still. Nevertheless, after two decades of flying I have a VERY hard time saying that.

You are only required to say Experimental on your initial call. I use "Experimental RV7 177NR" and then RV 7NR after that. Most towers and Center will use the RV after the initial also. When I call in for the N3N I identify it as "Yellow Biplane". Don

 

[azure]

Has the FCC ever actually brought and won a case against a pilot for this?

What can they do anyway?

When my dad worked for them, he talked shop a lot at home to vent and relieve tension, including a lot of the kinds of violations they monitored and issued violation notices for. Most of their enforcement actions were against CB offenders, scofflaw or unlicensed amateurs and (especially) commercial stations operating with defective transmitters. I can't recall a single time he mentioned monitoring the aeronautical bands for violations. The only aviation-related cases I remember him talking about were caused by ELTs going off in somebody's hangar.

Now that was nearly 40 years ago so things may have changed - but I doubt it, the FCC is even more short-handed today in a lot of areas.

 

[steingar]

You guys get your panties in a wad over the strangest things. Saturday I flew out to see what turned out to be a really ugly Mooney. I'm the only one in the pattern, and one of maybe three people on the radio. I use my call sign. Why not?

Last time I was in a busy pattern with a number of other aircraft my call sign became "white cherokee". It will again when the frequencies get congested. But those occurrences are really really rare, probably because people getting their panties in a wad over stupid things are driving all the new guys out of aviation.

 

[gitmo234]

I frankly dont care if I'm violating some regulation. There are thousands and thousands of pages of federal law, regulation and code that govern everything. It is virtually impossible to not violate something at all times.

If the FCC wants to come have a chat with me because I said "Cessna 69A Final 31" instead of the long tail number, at an uncontrolled field in the middle of nowhere, be my guest. They should probably have a talk with ATC who often does the same thing with me once I give my full tail.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Want to have fun with radio nannies? Turn your radio off, or go silent.

 

[bflynn]

Type and number - that's about as good as I expect. The type gives me a rough idea of the performance and to be honest from anything more than pattern altitude, I can't really tell whether your plane is white, grey, yellow or light pink.

The OP had a good point though - be consistent. Whatever you do, do it the same way all the time. If I hear "Cessna 12345" and "Green and White Cessna", then I'm looking for two aircraft and might do something evasive when I can't find the second one.

Personally, you're going to hear something like Piper 81917 (RIP) from me or maybe Warrior 8330S. Perhaps you'd like to hear White Warrior departing RWY 3, but I just can't say it with a straight face.

 

[WingNut42]

I'd agree with the OP in that I don't care what you use, just be consistent.

 

[docmirror]

I generally figure if you aren't using your N-number its because you don't want your actions traced.

We may be paranoid, but that doesn't mean they really aren't after us.

The 'DHS' called my airport FBO once after I landed and asked the guy at the counter a bunch of questions about that plane that just landed. So, he gave them my tail number, passengers, type of car I had, what I looked like, and a few other choice nuggets.

Yes - a good little fascist he was.

 

[exncsurfer]

Topic seems to be wandering. The OP wasn't even complaining about what people use to identify themselves, he just wanted them to stay consistent. So, if you're blue cessna, keep using blue cessna so people aren't looking for multiple aircraft.

I think that was his point.

edit: (dang, wingnut beat me to it)

 

[gitmo234]

We may be paranoid, but that doesn't mean they really aren't after us.

The 'DHS' called my airport FBO once after I landed and asked the guy at the counter a bunch of questions about that plane that just landed. So, he gave them my tail number, passengers, type of car I had, what I looked like, and a few other choice nuggets.

Yes - a good little fascist he was.

I wonder why he even answered those questions. I'd be willing to bet DHS wouldnt even get someone to answer the phone at my home FBO and if they did, they probably wouldnt answer anything.

I'd pull a FOIA request as to what and why they were asking

 

[AuntPeggy]

I was also taught to use the whole N-Number until I heard someone say "Blue and white Skyhawk". Much more helpful. Today I don't use my tail number, I just use the color and model of aircraft.

There is an AC that has not been updated in 25 years that says to use the whole N-Number.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/ac90-42F.pdf

 

[docmirror]

I wonder why he even answered those questions. I'd be willing to bet DHS wouldnt even get someone to answer the phone at my home FBO and if they did, they probably wouldnt answer anything.

I'd pull a FOIA request as to what and why they were asking

Have you not heard of the interdiction program? Don't you know what happened to Martha a while back while trying to fly a Cessna in the US?

I live in a border state, even though I was 298NM from the nearest border, I guess they wanted to know what they wanted to know. So I put in a FOIA, and they tell me they were looking for suspected ___________ activity. So what? The fact that they even do it, not why they do it is the issue.

I had a nice chat with the azzface at the FBO as well. I told him I was going to take down his tail number, license plate, take his picture, and if anything, anywhere in the county happened, I would promptly give it to the LEO for investigation.

A poster above me has it right. The radio has an 'off' switch. I'm going to make good use of it so you other pilots and the FCC don't get mad when I report as 'white/blue V-tail'.

 

[pilot_dude]

There is an AC that has not been updated in 25 years that says to use the whole N-Number.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/ac90-42F.pdf

I find humor that even the FAA circular does not list the whole number due to the omission of the preceding "N". Not all aircraft flying in the United States are based in the United States yet all are compelled to follow United States law while in United States air space.

 

[Jay Honeck]

A poster above me has it right. The radio has an 'off' switch. I'm going to make good use of it so you other pilots and the FCC don't get mad when I report as 'white/blue V-tail'.

Good luck with anonymity. As I fly over airports, now -- airports I'm not even tuned in to -- I can see planes taxiing out with their N-number displayed on my EFIS.

It's a brave, new ADS-B world.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Good luck with anonymity. As I fly over airports, now -- airports I'm not even tuned in to -- I can see planes taxiing out with their N-number displayed on my EFIS.

It's a brave, new ADS-B world.

I think he is leaning towards going 'legally dark' and simply not using the fancy airspace. Going to be a lot of that and outside the alphabet cylinders is going to be even more dangerous then today. Bunch of pilots on TV, smug thinking everyone else is on TV. And a bunch of anonymous enjoyer's flying legally dark. Unintended consequences crack me up.

 

[James331]

I think he is leaning towards going 'legally dark' and simply not using the fancy airspace. Going to be a lot of that and outside the alphabet cylinders is going to be even more dangerous then today. Bunch of pilots on TV, smug thinking everyone else is on TV. And a bunch of anonymous enjoyer's flying legally dark. Unintended consequences crack me up.

Isn't that the truth

 

[docmirror]

I think he is leaning towards going 'legally dark' and simply not using the fancy airspace. Going to be a lot of that and outside the alphabet cylinders is going to be even more dangerous then today. Bunch of pilots on TV, smug thinking everyone else is on TV. And a bunch of anonymous enjoyer's flying legally dark. Unintended consequences crack me up.

Legally dark. I like that. I'm gonna use that again, and again, and again.

I'm legally dark. (no racial content intended here, strictly av related)

Thanks!

 

[Jim Logajan]

The regulation pasted in to justify this statement doesn't even agree with this...

Unless someone can point to an actual case of the FCC busting someone for not using the tail number in every traffic transmission at an uncontrolled airport then this is a moot issue.

"The type of aircraft followed by the characters of the registration marking (“N” number) of the aircraft, omitting the prefix letter “N.” When communication is initiated by a ground station, an aircraft station may use the type of aircraft followed by the last three characters of the registration marking."

To repeat, I volunteered what historical and official information I was aware of because it appeared to me a lot of people, CFIs included, are unaware of the legal reasons for call signs in transmissions. I don't make regulations or agree with them - just calling them to your attention.

If you don't think the FCC cares that much, you may be correct. But I hope now a handful more people have some idea from whence the requirement comes and why (i.e. the FCC wants to know who to contact to stop collisions of off-frequency transmissions and cares not a whit for mid-air collisions of aircraft.)

 

[EdFred]

If I don't give my full tail number, how will the FCC know it's me?

I'm not a full tail number guy except when chatting with ATC.

 

[wsuffa]

When my dad worked for them, he talked shop a lot at home to vent and relieve tension, including a lot of the kinds of violations they monitored and issued violation notices for. Most of their enforcement actions were against CB offenders, scofflaw or unlicensed amateurs and (especially) commercial stations operating with defective transmitters. I can't recall a single time he mentioned monitoring the aeronautical bands for violations. The only aviation-related cases I remember him talking about were caused by ELTs going off in somebody's hangar.

Now that was nearly 40 years ago so things may have changed - but I doubt it, the FCC is even more short-handed today in a lot of areas.

That's basically correct.

The FCC went after safety-of-life issues that were complaints first (someone with a handheld that were emulating ATC, for example, or transmitters that were interfering with ILS/VOR systems), statutory inspections (ship SOLAS radios, for example), then other things that were triggered by complaints - unlicensed transmitters, unlicensed broadcast, etc, then citizen interference complaints, then bureau "data collection" missions (to determine the level of compliance and/or technical matters related to spectrum allocation), then a limited number of monitoring-based enforcement or station inspections (a certain number were "mandated" by policy).

With all that, there would have been virtually no enforcement of the sort of thing OP noted, unless there were a significant complaint from ATC or others at the airport. Likewise cursing on the radio, which was also against the law.

Bottom line: if you're not obnoxious or otherwise making an ass of yourself, the likelihood of the FCC doing something about callsigns is less than the probability of a ramp inspection by the FAA. Much less.

(noted that at one time the FAA inspectors in one office would get into "competitions" to see how many violations they could find. At that time, there was a higher liklihood of getting tagged for a nitpicky thing. I believe they're way too busy now than to engage in that kind of behavior...)

 

[azure]

The FCC went after safety-of-life issues that were complaints first (someone with a handheld that were emulating ATC, for example, or transmitters that were interfering with ILS/VOR systems),

Yep, come to think of it, I do recall a few cases like that. Consumer electronics amplifiers putting out harmonics on a navaid frequency, or interference from a commercial station. Unlicensed transmitters in the aeronautical bands, that sort of thing.

statutory inspections (ship SOLAS radios, for example),

Oh yes, lots of routine inspections of ship radios and commercial broadcast stations. Violation notices would be issued when appropriate, but actual enforcement actions were very rare.

then other things that were triggered by complaints - unlicensed transmitters, unlicensed broadcast, etc, then citizen interference complaints, then bureau "data collection" missions (to determine the level of compliance and/or technical matters related to spectrum allocation), then a limited number of monitoring-based enforcement or station inspections (a certain number were "mandated" by policy).

Yes, that's true, thanks for the reminder. Very little monitoring was done by the field office engineers though, mostly at designated monitoring stations like the one at Allegan, MI.

With all that, there would have been virtually no enforcement of the sort of thing OP noted, unless there were a significant complaint from ATC or others at the airport.

Yep, that was my point. It would be so far down the priority list that the chances of any manpower being devoted to pursuing a violation were virtually nil.

Though of course, "virtually" isn't the same thing as "identically", so there's always a remote possibility of getting in trouble over it. But it's something I wouldn't spend any time worrying about.

 

[paflyer]

We may be paranoid, but that doesn't mean they really aren't after us.

The 'DHS' called my airport FBO once after I landed and asked the guy at the counter a bunch of questions about that plane that just landed. So, he gave them my tail number, passengers, type of car I had, what I looked like, and a few other choice nuggets.

Yes - a good little fascist he was.

Of course he verified that it was actually DHS calling and not some NIMBY airport neighbor...

 

[docmirror]

Of course he verified that it was actually DHS calling and not some NIMBY airport neighbor...

aaahaahahhaaaa! Yah - sure. Diet Dr Pepper on my keyboard now.

 

[ralarcon]

Want to have fun with radio nannies? Turn your radio off, or go silent.

There may be an aircraft, nearby, you have not seen. This may put you at risk for a midair collision. I always announce and listen for other radio transmissions. There have been occasions when I'm in the pattern and have not noticed other aircraft until the radio transmission revealed their position. And conversely I have been in the pattern on downwind and somebody has flown right in front of me from the crosswind leg , because they did not see me. See and avoid does not work perfectly , in my opinion.

Cheers

 

[Jay Honeck]

Spotting traffic will always be a full time job.

Yesterday, I had ADS-B traffic at 3 o'clock, 4 miles, 1500' below us, for 25 miles. Mary was flying, we were slowly overtaking him, so I could just stare in the general direction. It should have been perfectly easy to see, a (probably) white aircraft silhouetted against the deep blue ocean.

We never saw him. I was astounded -- I knew his EXACT position, and I simply could not see him, and it wasn't for lack of trying.

I'm always amazed that anyone shot anyone down in World War II.

 

[ClimbnSink]

There may be an aircraft, nearby, you have not seen. This may put you at risk for a midair collision. I always announce and listen for other radio transmissions. There have been occasions when I'm in the pattern and have not noticed other aircraft until the radio transmission revealed their position. And conversely I have been in the pattern on downwind and somebody has flown right in front of me from the crosswind leg , because they did not see me. See and avoid does not work perfectly , in my opinion.

Cheers

So what. I can increase your risk to the legal maximum if I want to. And if people are being weenies on the radio then I want to. Don't like it stay above FL18 and only land at b & c airports.