Discussing GA Risk with Family / Friends

[asicer]

Some people have already made up their minds about the risk. Some have not. It is useful to help inform the latter, possibly with the use of statistics if they are able to digest it. For the former, it is useful to identify who they are as early as possible and then leave them be.

Agreed...

Forgot to mention that this applies to both pilots and non-pilots.

 

[Alexb2000]

Go out to your local airport. Go up to one of the guys setting in a lawn chair in front of some old clapped out looking bird and ask for a ride. Except you don't get to sit in the right seat you get to sit in the back. How's that sound? No Fing way I do it either.

This is what we are doing when we ask people to come fly with us. Put their lives in our hands, while they become helpless to what might happen. It is completely different than riding a motorcycle, or skydiving, or …., because we are in control of those things.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Go out to your local airport. Go up to one of the guys setting in a lawn chair in front of some old clapped out looking bird and ask for a ride. Except you don't get to sit in the right seat you get to sit in the back. How's that sound? No Fing way I do it either.

This is what we are doing when we ask people to come fly with us. Put their lives in our hands, while they become helpless to what might happen. It is completely different than riding a motorcycle, or skydiving, or …., because we are in control of those things.

Yup. If you wouldn't ride in a seat(lacking controls) with Joe pilot it is silly to expect anyone else to.

 

[N801BH]

Yup. If you wouldn't ride in a seat(lacking controls) with Joe pilot it is silly to expect anyone else to.

Exactly why I will NOT ride in the back of any CAP plane... Or the front, for that matter..

 

[EdFred]

But you will ride in a car without a steering wheel in front of you, or gas and brake pedals. How many of you do that?

 

[BigBadLou]

But you will ride in a car without a steering wheel in front of you, or gas and brake pedals. How many of you do that?

Have you ever tried arguing with your mother-in-law that you will be driving because you fear for your life???

Disclaimer: Kids, don't try this at home ...

 

[Reedster]

I agree with most replies here.
If the target audience has enough brain to understand risk and mitigation, I gladly discuss it with them. If they don't, it is not worth my time and especially aggravation to talk to an idiot.
Big clue: if somebody starts arguing with you because they "feel" that you are wrong, walk away while you still have any dignity left.

Well said

 

[Alexb2000]

But you will ride in a car without a steering wheel in front of you, or gas and brake pedals. How many of you do that?

Selectively and cautiously in my case. If someone has had even a drink, then nope. Others I don't ride with sober as a judge on Sunday. Makes for some awkward moments coming up with excuses.

I guess it's the same as when you ask your friends if they want to go flying and they always have laundry to do.

 

[FloridaPilot]

Go out to your local airport. Go up to one of the guys setting in a lawn chair in front of some old clapped out looking bird and ask for a ride. Except you don't get to sit in the right seat you get to sit in the back. How's that sound? No Fing way I do it either.

This is what we are doing when we ask people to come fly with us. Put their lives in our hands, while they become helpless to what might happen. It is completely different than riding a motorcycle, or skydiving, or …., because we are in control of those things.

Just because you have the controls in your hand doesn't mean you have 100% control of what happens. That is all an illusion.

Two years ago, a co-worker of mine passed away in a car with the steering wheel in his hands, (Great driver, never been in an accident). He was stopped at a light and a drunk driver skidded into a truck and the truck crushed the car that my co-worker was in. His wife was in the car too and she survived. She told me that it happened so quickly that there was nothing that could've been done especially from being in a complete stop.

Just because you have the controls in your hand, it doesn't mean we have complete control of what happens!

 

[96gs917]

I agree with most replies here.
If the target audience has enough brain to understand risk and mitigation, I gladly discuss it with them. If they don't, it is not worth my time and especially aggravation to talk to an idiot.
Big clue: if somebody starts arguing with you because they "feel" that you are wrong, walk away while you still have any dignity left.

I find this strategy works with flying, as well as gun ownership, although I'm usually trying to save their dignity. THOSE people aren't worth my time.

 

[EdFred]

Selectively and cautiously in my case. If someone has had even a drink, then nope. Others I don't ride with sober as a judge on Sunday. Makes for some awkward moments coming up with excuses.

I guess it's the same as when you ask your friends if they want to go flying and they always have laundry to do.

Never ridden with a co-worker, or vendor, or customer, or boss, or anyone anywhere? Not buying it.

 

[Henning]

If people seem like they want a serious answer, I will explain my process of risk management and risk acceptance involved. If they are just slobbering drunks at a party, I just shrug and say "Everyone dies, the difference is in how we choose to live."

 

[FloridaPilot]

If people seem like they want a serious answer, I will explain my process of risk management and risk acceptance involved. If they are just slobbering drunks at a party, I just shrug and say "Everyone dies, the difference is in how we choose to live."

Exactly right, Henning!

 

[Alexb2000]

Never ridden with a co-worker, or vendor, or customer, or boss, or anyone anywhere? Not buying it.

Of course I have, but not when they've been drinking. I have run into people I wouldn't ride with a second time. It's just like anything else in life you just try and be smart. Same with flying there are pilots I'd ride with no problem, but also plenty I wouldn't ever get in their plane, the stakes are just higher.

 

[brian]]

Wife: I tell her about some of the accidents I read about here and other places. Not a lot, but enough that (I hope) she is interested in being a participant in eliminating some of the risks when we fly together. (She has read a check list before, helps with traffic and looks for the runways.)


Others: I explain that they are about to take a ride in an airplane otherwise known as a "forked tail doctor killer". Then I ask if they remember songs about "the day the music died" (when they do - I point at my airplane). If they are still interested, we go for a ride


Seriously, most of the people I know ride motor cycles and some might even fly if they could. (Some can't for medical reasons and others for finances.) Don't hide the risk - evaluate and manage it...

 

[Alexb2000]

Just because you have the controls in your hand doesn't mean you have 100% control of what happens. That is all an illusion.

Two years ago, a co-worker of mine passed away in a car with the steering wheel in his hands, (Great driver, never been in an accident). He was stopped at a light and a drunk driver skidded into a truck and the truck crushed the car that my co-worker was in. His wife was in the car too and she survived. She told me that it happened so quickly that there was nothing that could've been done especially from being in a complete stop.

Just because you have the controls in your hand, it doesn't mean we have complete control of what happens!

You don't think I know this? Of course S happens, but we're talking about keeping the odds as much in our favor as we can while still living life.

That said, getting in a 40 year old airplane with a guy that flies less than 50 hours a year, but thinks he has the skills of Chuck Yeager. Kind of like ***** slapping fate if you ask me.

 

[MajorTurbulence]

I answer as follows: I have been flying for 37 years. There is a well known pilot saying-" There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots."
This pretty much handles the hyperbolic questions.
Obviously, this will not work for many of you.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Just because you have the controls in your hand doesn't mean you have 100% control of what happens. That is all an illusion.

Two years ago, a co-worker of mine passed away in a car with the steering wheel in his hands, (Great driver, never been in an accident). He was stopped at a light and a drunk driver skidded into a truck and the truck crushed the car that my co-worker was in. His wife was in the car too and she survived. She told me that it happened so quickly that there was nothing that could've been done especially from being in a complete stop.

Just because you have the controls in your hand, it doesn't mean we have complete control of what happens!

A great friend from college survived doing the craziest **** of ANY of us -- and had his upper body sheared clean off when a 5th offense drunk driver came sailing over the center barricade on I-55. There was zero time to react.

He was driving his son home from a Boy Scout meeting. The boy survived, but saw the whole thing.

Anyone who thinks driving is "safe" is delusional. I am terrified, driving on Austin or San Antonio freeways, but perfectly relaxed flying there.

 

[1600vw]

Everyone who has a spouse that is against them flying, should have said spouse sign a wavier allowing them to fly. This way if they do get killed in their airplane the humans left on this earth will not have to deal with said spouse in court.

 

[ggroves]

but what I do know is that when behind the yolk of a plane I'm in control of a much much higher percentage of the risk vs. when I'm behind the wheel of a car on a busy road.

No, not so much. It's a higher risk activity (the biggest risk is between your ears). The airplane you fly hasn't been designed to protect you in a crash (crumple zones, air bags) at speeds and forces that are terminal. You accept the risk. Why does it matter that others accept your acceptance? I always smiled, nodded, and stated I had good life insurance coverage. Nothing more, because you can't rationalize it or debate it away.

http://airportjournals.com/martha-and-john-king-practical-risk-management-for-pilots/

Good reading. (Don't stare at Martha's hair).

 

[bflynn]

Depends. If it's a pretty lady, I agree and mention that I could die at any moment, but there is NOTHING like the thrill of flying.

But usually I point out that most of the safety of an airplane is due to the pilot. I take care to learn where the biggest and most dangerous safety issues are and specifically counteract them. Therefore when I don't do those unsafe things, when I check for unsafe conditions, I'm raising my safety to something near or better than a car. If you don't stall, don't run out of gas and don't fly into bad weather, you're miles ahead of the game already.

 

[FloridaPilot]

A great friend from college survived doing the craziest **** of ANY of us -- and had his upper body sheared clean off when a 5th offense drunk driver came sailing over the center barricade on I-55. There was zero time to react.

He was driving his son home from a Boy Scout meeting. The boy survived, but saw the whole thing.

Anyone who thinks driving is "safe" is delusional. I am terrified, driving on Austin or San Antonio freeways, but perfectly relaxed flying there.

That is a darn shame, sorry to hear that.

Drunk driving accidents kill a lot more than people realize!

 

[Anthony]

I tell them that with GA flying a lot of risks that cause accidents can be mitigated by the pilot with standard procedures, and good judgment. I also talk about training, and staying proficient. I have been acosted by some wives of husbands who just happened to ask me about flying at cocktail parties. They all had Harleys.

 

[bullwinkle]

"How many beautiful and life changing opportunities will we choose to miss out on, purely out of fear of the unknown?"

 

[RotorDude]

A great friend from college survived doing the craziest **** of ANY of us -- and had his upper body sheared clean off when a 5th offense drunk driver came sailing over the center barricade on I-55. There was zero time to react.

He was driving his son home from a Boy Scout meeting. The boy survived, but saw the whole thing.

Anyone who thinks driving is "safe" is delusional. I am terrified, driving on Austin or San Antonio freeways, but perfectly relaxed flying there.

Sounds very similar to the story I tell people who ask me about GA safety.
My old CFII who trained me for my IA years ago, was fearless when it came to flying; we did much of my training in IMC with no hood, some of it even in icing conditions (icing was much harder to predict in those days).
When I asked him about his take on aviation safety, he told me about his own worst experience (to date). He had just flown a very tough IFR flight in driving rain and howling wind, and somehow managed to shoot the VOR approach, see the runway right at minimums, fight the cross wind and downdrafts, land on our short-ish (2000') runway, taxi to the parking spot and tie her down safely. He then got in his car and drove home. Except along the way home, still in that wind and pouring rain, a drunk driver ran into my instructor's car sideways, and pushed his car until it ended up totaled on someone's front lawn. He was sitting there on the lawn, inside his smashed car, in disbelief, realizing that a safe flight only counts as such when you are back home in bed.

 

[Henning]

"How many beautiful and life changing opportunities will we choose to miss out on, purely out of fear of the unknown?"

That applies at all levels of social risk taking, and the answer is we lost our destiny.

 

[pj500]

Quantify it. Statistics are fine. Relative statistics are easily understood. Media is a wreck, they sensationalize things. Most certified single engine GA falls in this category:

It's as risky as a motorcycle, skydiving, and similar to many types of pleasure boating.

It's twice as risky as riding a bicycle

It's 7 times as risky as driving a car.

It's 3 times safer than riding a horse.

If I do 50-100 hours a year (GA average) I've got roughly a 3% chance of killing myself in a plane in a typical GA starting at age 30.

Then they can make their own choice if it's within your risk tolerance. I don't try to hide it.

However when people have more to go by than sensationalized media reports, they can make a more educated decision for themselves.

Most family and friends are supportive and excited by my interest in aviation. Of course occasionally I get accosted by some that seem to thing I'm nuts. I assume I'm not alone in having friends/family tell me:

"You're crazy, do you know how dangerous that is!" (says the person that drives a motorcycle)

"Those things crash all the time! Didn't you see that story on the news last week" (says the person that just had a fender bender after texting while driving )

I'm well aware of the risks associated with flying, including having a distant member of the family killed when the Cessna they piloted crashed.

How do you respond to such comments/questions?

I'm not too interested in arguments based on "statistics" since anyone that's ever really looked into such data quickly realizes that one can easily mold the numbers into whatever argument one is trying to make. I think we can all agree that flying has risks as do lots of other things. To me it's more about what form that risk take and ones ability to manage/mitigate it.

My comments usually following along the lines of:

- Life is full of risk. Living a full life involves taking carefully calculated risks (physically, personally and professionally). Living in a plastic bubble with a padded suit and helmet 24/7 is probably 'statisticly safer' but isn't much of a life.

- General aviation is certainly a pursuit that has a lot of risk. However, relative to many other risky activities that GA is often compared to (e.g., driving) the management of that risk is almost entirely in the hands of the pilot. This is a distinct advantage (or disadvantage depending on who's flying the plane). Case-in-point on my last drive home from the airport, the most risky moments of that drive were when I had to swerve to avoid two idiot drivers fiddling with their phones while they were drifting in and out of their lane.

- When driving in a car, much of the risk is simply being on the road. Sadly, very good drivers that did nothing wrong are killed / seriously injured when they did nothing wrong but get hit by a drunk driver, light runner, etc. The equivalent in GA is rare. The vast majority of serious GA accidents require the pilot to have performed poorly, made a poor decision (e.g. flew into conditions they had no business flying in), or reacted to an emergency in a way inconsistent with proper training. The training, skill and sharpness of the pilot is the primary thing determining safety. It's the difference between "miracle on the hudson" after a full engine failure and the Asiana pilots crashing a perfectly good 777 at SFO on a clear day.

- The whole "the most dangerous part of a plane trip is the drive to the airport" line can be supported or debunked depending on what data one uses (what flights, when, what roads, time of data, region, etc.) but what I do know is that when behind the yolk of a plane I'm in control of a much much higher percentage of the risk vs. when I'm behind the wheel of a car on a busy road. Given that knowledge I'm comfortable taking on the risks associated with General Aviation and make sure that I dedicate appropriate time and energy towards always improving and learning. If I ever get complacent or not nervous, that's the time to stop.


How do others respond?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

thought this was interesting.....I don't know the source. In any rate the aviation probabilities are not for GA and more likely scheduled air carrier.

 

[petrolero]

For anyone who is serious (and most people are) I go over the basic redundancies on an aircraft. I explain that Cessnas and the like are designed for hamfisted pilots and thus are built like little brick ****houses. They are megastable.

So depending on the person's concerns I may trot out one or more of the following:

-- Ignore accident statistics you may have heard. Statistics are only applicable if I behave like the sample used to generate the statistics. I do my best to be better than average. The statistics include people who did things that I put conscious effort into not doing. But at the same time I understand that most of those guys didn't take off thinking "I'm going to do something that gets me killed today." So I try to understand and be realistic about human factors.

-- I explain that engine-out emergencies are almost always the pilot's fault for running it out of gas. I then explain that over CONUS there is absolutely no reason that should happen! Check out this map in ForeFlight that shows all the airports with fuel (turn on 100LL prices).

-- I explain that the other way pilots get in trouble is by pushing into bad weather. VFR pilots flying into clouds or any pilots flying into ice or storms. Show FF with METARs turned on. Updates at least hourly. So what is the excuse for "accidentally" flying into low vis? None.

-- I explain that unless pilots are specifically trained and rated, they are absolutely forbidden from flying in clouds or even low visibility. Most people don't know this. I then tell them that I am so trained and my airplane is so equipped - with modern gear.

-- My airplane was built in 1979 and that REALLY makes people nervous. How many cars from 1979 are on the road and how many of those are giant pieces junk? Well, I explain, aircraft are different. People put a lot of money into their airplanes to keep them up to date because it's cheaper that way than buying a new plane. They must be inspected in detail (not like some BS state car inspection) at least annually and they can be deemed unairworthy if something big is found. I explain that I spend thousands of dollars every year on maintenance and upgrades. Airframe and skin aside, very little of my airplane is original gear from 1979.

-- I have an RG airplane. I explain that a gear-up landing on a hard surface runway should not ever lead to injury, much less fatality. I've seen stats on this and it is true. Gear-ups on runways bend metal, not people. It's only when pilots get cute by cutting the engine and bumping the starter and to save money that they create more emergencies than they started with.

-- I explain that a Cessna is a pretty fair glider. The book says my Cessna has a 10:1 glide ratio. Well if that is true that means that at 10,000 feet AGL I can glide forward 100,000 feet. How many miles is that? Yep, nearly 20 miles unless a mountain gets in my way - more if conditions are right and I use the wind. You do not "fall from the sky" but you must find a place to land. This actually shocks people. Show them a map so they can see how many airports and straight roads there are within a 15-mile radius of nearly anywhere in CONUS.

-- I further explain that turbulence - even mod turbulence that causes them to scream and pray and stuff to levitate - is just an annoyance and not dangerous unless they're unbuckled. We avoid it because it ****es us and our passengers off and could make people sick. But belted people don't die from turbulence.

-- I explain what a stall is and what it isn't. 95% of non-pilots think a stall means the engine quit. I explain that airplanes can fly at shockingly slow speeds and that I practice stalls all the time.

-- Finally, I allow that the most dangerous parts of the flight are takeoff and landing. Why? Because in both phases you are low and relatively slow (low potential energy and relatively low kinetic energy). You thus have fewer options. However, it isn't hard to maintain your airspeed and we all have to demonstrate it to pass the check ride.

-- People who know I'm a pilot will point out every plane crash they hear of. I like to learn from the mistakes and misfortune of others with the caveat that I can't tell, especially from early news reports, why a guy ended up using his plane to dig a fiery hole in the earth. The devil is always in the details so don't jump to conclusions about aircraft accidents.

Good luck.

 

[Henning]

thought this was interesting.....I don't know the source. In any rate the aviation probabilities are not for GA and more likely scheduled air carrier.

Wow, suicide comes in at #6, 1:119. That is a seriously 'wow' number.

 

[pj500]

Wow, suicide comes in at #6, 1:119. That is a seriously 'wow' number.

Suicide is a huge problem. It's a "hidden" disease, nobody talks about it. Did you know we lost more soldiers due to mental illness/suicide than any enemy action during the recent wars in the middle east? Most people do not understand the scope of the problem.

 

[asicer]

http://airportjournals.com/martha-and-john-king-practical-risk-management-for-pilots/

Good reading. (Don't stare at Martha's hair).

It's as risky as a motorcycle, skydiving, and similar to many types of pleasure boating.

I believe both are based on old data. GA fatality rates have been dropping while motorcycle fatality rates haven't. If I'm not mistaken, GA is riskier than a car but safer than a motorcycle.

Also, the GA fatality rates include things I don't fly (warbirds, helis, balloons) doing things I don't do (racing, cropdusting, akro).

 

[ClimbnSink]

The motorcycle and car numbers are full of alcohol related crashes which are rare in GA. Remove alcohol related crashes crom all the categories and compare the results.

 

[cowman]

I once looked up the odds of dying in a terrorist attack and it was less likely than a lighting strike. Probably doesn't even place on their chart but look where the resources and fear go. I never understood this.

 

[pj500]

The motorcycle and car numbers are full of alcohol related crashes which are rare in GA. Remove alcohol related crashes crom all the categories and compare the results.

While this is true, they are not all single vehicle accidents...

I don't know about cars, but today on bikes 50% of fatals are rider error, and the alcohol present rate is somewhere around 10-25% Much lower than a couple decades ago.

 

[N801BH]

thought this was interesting.....I don't know the source. In any rate the aviation probabilities are not for GA and more likely scheduled air carrier.

I ain't buying that charts accuracy.... Way more people are killed by lightening then " legal executions).....

 

[petrolero]

I ain't buying that charts accuracy.... Way more people are killed by lightening then " legal executions).....

Maybe they included death by electric chair in the lightning stats.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Perhaps these " earthlings"that know you well are factoring in the total time you have flown, the time they have known you and how well you react to certain situations, or what your flying might be of interest if they know it's fifty years old, etc. a good long time pal who flew p2vs, went on to 35 years with eastern replied when I offered him a ride in my Stearman, "burn that old dog, you don't know where it's been.!" He wanted no parts of GA.

 

[Henning]

Suicide is a huge problem. It's a "hidden" disease, nobody talks about it. Did you know we lost more soldiers due to mental illness/suicide than any enemy action during the recent wars in the middle east? Most people do not understand the scope of the problem.

Yeah, I knew about the high rate in vets and soldiers, but they make sense when you realized you've been duped into damnation. For the general population the number is still pretty high. Another thread made me wonder if things like drinking yourself to death and "death by misadventure" are put into that. I wouldn't object to the classification, it would accurate enough since it killing of ones self, knowing that would go a long way to making the number easier to absorb.

 

[Henning]

I ain't buying that charts accuracy.... Way more people are killed by lightening then " legal executions).....

You ain't been to Texas, as Ron White puts it, "We have an express lane".