difficulty starting O200

[GeorgeC]

It was warm (>40°) this morning when I did my usual starting procedure with the mighty Skycatcher. Couple shots of primer, cracked the throttle to the position I know will yield about 1000rpm, and normally it starts right up, but not today. It would fire once or twice, but not catch. Pretty sure I didn't flood it. After a few attempts, I went inside and described the situation, and the guy grabbed a spray can and headed out to help me.

After a visit from the ether bunny, the engine started right up. Did not notice an abnormal mag drop.

Did the previous renter fail to lean properly and crud up the plugs on me?

 

[Henning]

You didn't prime enough for the temp is all, the can of ether just gave it more fuel. Try two more pumps. Did you reprime after the first try? Because it was no longer primed. Remember, an airplane has no choke the only extra cold weather fuel except the primer. Once it gets below 60, I add an extra pump for each 10 degrees. At 40 I would have given it 6 pumps.

If it fires and dies, it's not flooded, it ran out of fuel.

 

[Tom-D]

After you fed that engine ether I'd not fly that engine 2 feet.

 

[Tom-D]

You didn't prime enough for the temp is all, the can of ether just gave it more fuel. Try two more pumps. Did you reprime after the first try? Because it was no longer primed. Remember, an airplane has no choke the only extra cold weather fuel except the primer. Once it gets below 60, I add an extra pump for each 10 degrees. At 40 I would have given it 6 pumps.

If it fires and dies, it's not flooded, it ran out of fuel.

I thought by now you'd learned not to prime any engine that isn't cranking.

All the fuel produced by all that pumping will simply run out into the airbox.

 

[Henning]

After you fed that engine ether I'd not fly that engine 2 feet.

Why? I understand the objection to ether, but typically if you don't break the engine starting on it, and it makes it through the runnup, there is extremely low probability there is any damage done. I've run a lot of engines for years after they got hit with ether. It's one of those deals where you either do deathly damage or no damage.

 

[Tom-D]

Why? I understand the objection to ether, but typically if you don't break the engine starting on it, and it makes it through the runnup, there is extremely low probability there is any damage done. I've run a lot of engines for years after they got hit with ether. It's one of those deals where you either do deathly damage or no damage.

Because this is what happens to the 0-200/300 cylinders, can you say "detonation".

this is not one of your many engines.

 

[Henning]

Because this is what happens to the 0-200/300 cylinders, can you say "detonation".

this is not one of your many engines.

Exactly, but I doubt it was running right after getting started. Usually it's immediate deadly damage or nothing.

 

[Tom-D]

Exactly, but I doubt it was running right after getting started. Usually it's immediate deadly damage or nothing.

NO,,, fatigue is cyclic, how do you know that engines history. How long is this method been going on?

Ether is dangerous in aircraft engines. It is misfueling of the worse case.
There isn't any manufacturer that will honor a warrantee if they know there was ether used.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Don't use ether! If you MUST, use Starting Fluid with Ether in it. Straight ether is REALLY tough on the engine. Starting fluid has some other magic ingredients that make it less damaging.

I can't imagine a situation where I would be willing to subject my engine to Ether OR Starting Fluid. It washes the oil off the cylinder walls worse than raw gasoline.

 

[RoscoeT]

I might disagree and guess that you did flood it. With small Continentals, if you get a couple of burps from the engine before it dies, that's usually flooded. Then if you continue trying to start, you will get nothing. Sounds like what you describe. Did the engine actually run for a few seconds, or did it just burp? In my experience with small Continentals, if it's cold, they may start for a few seconds and die due to insufficient fuel. In cold weather, you may need to use the primer to keep it running for a few seconds until the induction system warms up. But above 40 deg. this shouldn't be needed. Did you notice any dripping gas?

And don't rely on starting fluid. Just learn to start the engine in all conditions, and at various engine temps between hot and cold.

 

[vintage cessna]

It was warm (>40°) this morning when I did my usual starting procedure with the mighty Skycatcher. Couple shots of primer, cracked the throttle to the position I know will yield about 1000rpm, and normally it starts right up, but not today. It would fire once or twice, but not catch. Pretty sure I didn't flood it. After a few attempts, I went inside and described the situation, and the guy grabbed a spray can and headed out to help me.

After a visit from the ether bunny, the engine started right up. Did not notice an abnormal mag drop.

Did the previous renter fail to lean properly and crud up the plugs on me?

Were you the first start of the day? Temp may have been +40 at the time, but what was the over night temp? When it is cold, you will usually have to pump the throttle while cranking.

Could be fouled/bad plugs also. Either way, I feel bad for the owner of the Skycatcher.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

Were you the first start of the day? Temp may have been +40 at the time, but what was the over night temp? When it is cold, you will usually have to pump the throttle while cranking.

Could be fouled/bad plugs also. Either way, I feel bad for the owner of the Skycatcher.

That was my thinking as well, it might have been +40* in the morning when he tried to start it but the engine might have been cold soaked from a twenty degree night?

 

[Dan Thomas]

I don't know where the primer jet is in the O-200-D, but if it's the same as the O-200-A, it's in the carb spider. If one primes, then waits a few seconds before cranking, the fuel just runs down and out through the carb. At lower temps it doesn't vaporize well and only weak fumes reach the cylinders.

You want to prime and then crank, right away. No waiting. Get that mist sucked up into the intake.

Dan

 

[GeorgeC]

Overnight low temp was about 35°, so not particularly cold soaked. The preheater was not plugged in. It was the first start of the day. It would fire once or twice, not run for a few seconds and then die.

Start procedure per the POH is 3-6 pumps of the throttle (no separate primer) followed by cranking. 3 pumps has worked well for me in the past in all seasons, but maybe I should have tried more. I tried pumping while cranking as well. Reprimed before each start attempt. The battery was fresh, so cranking was vigorous.

This was the first time I'd seen an FBO spray stuff into an engine. It seems to me that this practice treats the symptom and not the disease. The question is, what's the underlying disease? It's never done this to me before (and there are a lot of "hey, it's above freezing, time to fly" days around here this time of year), so I infer that something changed with the plane. What are the likely culprits? Plugs? Accelerator pump?

Or was it simply simply not enough priming? A case where it should have been preheated?

 

[Tom-D]

I don't know where the primer jet is in the O-200-D, but if it's the same as the O-200-A, it's in the carb spider. If one primes, then waits a few seconds before cranking, the fuel just runs down and out through the carb. At lower temps it doesn't vaporize well and only weak fumes reach the cylinders.

You want to prime and then crank, right away. No waiting. Get that mist sucked up into the intake.

Dan

Where did we see that it was a -D?

 

[GeorgeC]

The 162 has an O-200-D.

 

[Tom-D]

The 162 has an O-200-D.

Ahh. I see it now "Skycatcher" the D is the same as the A in this respect. they are both remote mounted carbs.

Does the 165 have a primer pump? If So use it.

Pull the primer allow it to fill, master on, mags on, start cranking push the primer in. it will start quickly.

 

[GeorgeC]

This 162 does not have a primer pump.

 

[Tom-D]

This 162 does not have a primer pump.

Then start cranking, and open the throttle at the rate of about 3 seconds per full stroke, keep stroking the throttle until starts, when it starts, close the throttle quickly.

pumping it several time prior to cranking allows the fuel to drain down thru the carb.

 

[vintage cessna]

Overnight low temp was about 35°, so not particularly cold soaked. The preheater was not plugged in. It was the first start of the day. It would fire once or twice, not run for a few seconds and then die.

Start procedure per the POH is 3-6 pumps of the throttle (no separate primer) followed by cranking. 3 pumps has worked well for me in the past in all seasons, but maybe I should have tried more. I tried pumping while cranking as well. Reprimed before each start attempt. The battery was fresh, so cranking was vigorous.

This was the first time I'd seen an FBO spray stuff into an engine. It seems to me that this practice treats the symptom and not the disease. The question is, what's the underlying disease? It's never done this to me before (and there are a lot of "hey, it's above freezing, time to fly" days around here this time of year), so I infer that something changed with the plane. What are the likely culprits? Plugs? Accelerator pump?

Or was it simply simply not enough priming? A case where it should have been preheated?

I would advise you not to reprime prior to each attempted restart. My O200D was plagued by hard starting due to the plugs constantly fouling. I switched to fine wire spark plugs and that solved the problem.

if the owner doesn't want to spend the extra money on fine wire he should have the plugs inspected and cleaned at every oil change. The Skycatcher O200D comes from the factory equipped with Champion plugs, do you know what brand of plugs is in this Skycatcher?

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Usually it's flooded but as reported it could be fouled plugs, mags. Hard to tell.

 

[iflyvfr]

Because this is what happens to the 0-200/300 cylinders, can you say "detonation".

this is not one of your many engines.

Tom, what are you showing us in pix 1 & 2? I think I know in #1, but I'd like to know for sure. #2 looks completely normal to my untrained eye.

Thanks.

 

[BigBadLou]

I think I know in #1, but I'd like to know for sure. #2 looks completely normal to my untrained eye.

Trying to tell #1 from #2, that's what PoA is good at!
(sorry, I really couldn't pass this one up)

 

[Tom-D]

Tom, what are you showing us in pix 1 & 2? I think I know in #1, but I'd like to know for sure. #2 looks completely normal to my untrained eye.

Thanks.

The aluminum head is being separated from the steel barrel. can be seen by the huge crack in the interior of the cylinder.
This is very typical of detonation. ether has no burn rate suppressor like lead or ?, so it simply explodes in the cylinder.

 

[Geico266]

I've been told never use starting fluid or ether on AC engines. Fix the problem.

 

[Henning]

Overnight low temp was about 35°, so not particularly cold soaked. The preheater was not plugged in. It was the first start of the day. It would fire once or twice, not run for a few seconds and then die.

Start procedure per the POH is 3-6 pumps of the throttle (no separate primer) followed by cranking. 3 pumps has worked well for me in the past in all seasons, but maybe I should have tried more. I tried pumping while cranking as well. Reprimed before each start attempt. The battery was fresh, so cranking was vigorous.

This was the first time I'd seen an FBO spray stuff into an engine. It seems to me that this practice treats the symptom and not the disease. The question is, what's the underlying disease? It's never done this to me before (and there are a lot of "hey, it's above freezing, time to fly" days around here this time of year), so I infer that something changed with the plane. What are the likely culprits? Plugs? Accelerator pump?

Or was it simply simply not enough priming? A case where it should have been preheated?

The underlying disease is typically low compression, this gets exasperated by low temps. You were just under primed is all. It helps to crank the engine as you prime.

 

[Geico266]

When priming in cold weather give the fuel a chance to evaporate. After priming wait 15 seconds then try starting, or try cranking and priming at the same time. Try a difference starting sequence if what you do doesn't work well.

I use to have a tough time starting my RV-8, IO-360. I tried starting with the boost pump on and it fires up on the first revolution now.

 

[taters]

I don't know where the primer jet is in the O-200-D, but if it's the same as the O-200-A, it's in the carb spider. If one primes, then waits a few seconds before cranking, the fuel just runs down and out through the carb. At lower temps it doesn't vaporize well and only weak fumes reach the cylinders.

You want to prime and then crank, right away. No waiting. Get that mist sucked up into the intake.

Dan

^^^ agreed...if its really cold I used to prime as it was cranking and that would save alot of trouble vs just priming the crap out of it...I would check/clean your primer nozzles....does your primer move freely or have any resistance to it ? they are easy to check

 

[Henning]

^^^ agreed...if its really cold I used to prime as it was cranking and that would save alot of trouble vs just priming the crap out of it...I would check/clean your primer nozzles....does your primer move freely or have any resistance to it ? they are easy to check

It depends on where the primer squirts. Most Lycomings it sprays from the top straight at the intake valve. There cranking has less effect.

 

[taters]

It depends on where the primer squirts. Most Lycomings it sprays from the top straight at the intake valve. There cranking has less effect.

O200 is a Continental...the 162 basically has the same O200D that the Cessna 150 made famous.

 

[Henning]

O200 is a Continental...the 162 basically has the same O200D that the Cessna 150 made famous.

Understood, just pointing out that systems are different, and different techniques aren't necessary, or even effective, on all engines. If you are spraying into the plenum, then you want to be cranking, if you are spraying at the valves, just one blade will do it, and any more is wasting prime. If you have a 152 with a single cyl prime, you don't want to crank at all, just prime and wait for vapor to build.

With carbs on a cold day if I get the "didn't prime quite enough" chug, I'll give two quick pumps of the throttle max. 50/50 it fires from the extra fuel from the accelerator pump. If it's real cold and failed to start, I'll reprime and wait for 30 seconds or so to let the little bit of heat from the chug soak in, let the fuel evaporate a bit to get good vapor condensation, and let the heat caused by the cranking load soak into the battery and warm it up a bit too.

 

[iflyvfr]

The aluminum head is being separated from the steel barrel. can be seen by the huge crack in the interior of the cylinder.
This is very typical of detonation. ether has no burn rate suppressor like lead or ?, so it simply explodes in the cylinder.

Thank you, my suspicion confirmed. Now I can clearly understand why no ether. Kaboom!

 

[Tom-D]

O200 is a Continental...the 162 basically has the same O200D that the Cessna 150 made famous.

All the Cessna's 150s had a 0-200-A installed at the factory.

The 0-200-D Has a few changes to warrant the new model (D).

 

[Tom-D]

Thank you, my suspicion confirmed. Now I can clearly understand why no ether. Kaboom!

Understand barrel separation is not the norm, usually the results are a stretching of the case thru bolts and a set of fretted cases and a large oil leak, that can't be stopped.
I've even seen cylinder hold down studs pulled out.

 

[Dan Thomas]

All the Cessna's 150s had a 0-200-A installed at the factory.

The 0-200-D Has a few changes to warrant the new model (D).

It's also 13.5 pounds lighter than the -A. They found some places to shave weight off it. Not sure where.

Dan

 

[Dan Thomas]

When priming in cold weather give the fuel a chance to evaporate. After priming wait 15 seconds then try starting, or try cranking and priming at the same time..

Don't know what you call cold, but that won't work in Canadian cold. The primer nozzle sprays a fine mist; in warmer weather much of it will evaporate in the manifold but there is still some that will settle on the walls of the manifold and drain back down. We see blue stains in airboxes all the time from that. In cold weather, the evaporation is too slow to help, and the fuel mist just drops onto the manifold and creates a serious fire hazard when it runs out. A backfire (common enough when mixtures are too lean) will set it afire in the airbox and cowl. Seen that. It's not pretty.

Prime and start immediately. The heat of compression helps to vaporize the fuel mist and minimizes the drainback.

In really cold weather the engine will sometimes run a few pops and quit. Water vapor in the cylinder (byproduct of combustion) will then frost the plugs and short them. Seen that, too.

Dan

 

[Henning]

Understand barrel separation is not the norm, usually the results are a stretching of the case thru bolts and a set of fretted cases and a large oil leak, that can't be stopped.
I've even seen cylinder hold down studs pulled out.

If it's not my plane and they want to use whatever, it's their plane. In a 152, my chances of survival are good enough for me.

 

[Henning]

Don't know what you call cold, but that won't work in Canadian cold. The primer nozzle sprays a fine mist; in warmer weather much of it will evaporate in the manifold but there is still some that will settle on the walls of the manifold and drain back down. We see blue stains in airboxes all the time from that. In cold weather, the evaporation is too slow to help, and the fuel mist just drops onto the manifold and creates a serious fire hazard when it runs out. A backfire (common enough when mixtures are too lean) will set it afire in the airbox and cowl. Seen that. It's not pretty.

Prime and start immediately. The heat of compression helps to vaporize the fuel mist and minimizes the drainback.

In really cold weather the engine will sometimes run a few pops and quit. Water vapor in the cylinder (byproduct of combustion) will then frost the plugs and short them. Seen that, too.

Dan

Most times I see blue stains in air boxes, people have been pumping the throttle without turning over the engine, trying to prime with the accelerator pump. It's effective if you let the fuel sit in the box for a minute and fill the induction tubes with good vapor, only problem is it occasionally starts the plane on fire. Many primer systems squirt the fuel at the intake valve.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Many primer systems squirt the fuel at the intake valve.

Lycomings do that, and I see blue stains on Lycoming airboxes too. Priming is one of those things taught by instructors that have no clue what's going on inside that cowling.

Dan

 

[nrpetersen]

On colder starts I've had good luck hand propping with a dead closed throttle & mixture rich, but going very easy on the prime. The idle jet will flow fuel into the carb at a high velocity point for the airflow plus there will be a momentary reduction of pressure in the intake manifold that will assist getting any manifold based liquid fuel to flash into vapor, which makes it combustible.

MoGas helps. Be sure the magneto switch works on every shutdown and prop as though the mags are live anyway.