Difficult night

dtuuri said:
You can force them to rest, i.e., not work.
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Not working does not equal resting. They could be out on the ski slopes all day. There's no way you can force someone to rest and especially sleep.


dtuuri said:
FAR135.267(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment.
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Again, rest does not mean physically resting. It just means you are under no obligation to the operator during that time.
 
dtuuri said:
This doesn't sound like a legal operation, let alone a safe one. What time did (do?) your scheduled rest period(s) begin? You were working a "real" job during it?

dtuuri
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Perfectly legal. As to the safe aspect, clearly you disagree that it was. But Bryon and his boss were comfortable with it so I am, too. I've done similar flying 135 (and 91).
 
Everskyward said:
Not working does not equal resting. They could be out on the ski slopes all day. There's no way you can force someone to rest and especially sleep.



Again, rest does not mean physically resting. It just means you are under no obligation to the operator during that time.
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As the employer, you can specify that rest be taken and you can terminate their employment for breaking the rules. It would be unreasonable to terminate them for not being rested, however, if you didn't tell them when they needed to rest.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
As the employer, you can specify that rest be taken and you can terminate their employment for breaking the rules.
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So you are going to follow them around when they are not at work to see what they are doing? Have you ever tried to sleep on command?

dtuuri said:
It would be unreasonable to terminate them for not being rested, however, if you didn't tell them when they needed to rest.
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If it's a pop-up trip as most organ donor trips are, the operator doesn't know it's going to happen either.
 
So you're saying an employer must tell their emploees to sleep? Yep, that'll work like a charm. :rofl:
 
Everskyward said:
So you are going to follow them around when they are not at work to see what they are doing? Have you ever tried to sleep on command?
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Yes, I've tried to sleep on command. It's because it can't be done that I know some sort of regular, predictable hours are required to fly safely. Calling somebody who's been out on the ski slopes all day and effectively saying, "You know all those black diamonds you sleep-walked through today? Well, you got your required rest for the 14 hour organ harvest tonight in hard IFR," doesn't pass the sniff test even if it's commonly practiced.

Everskyward said:
If it's a pop-up trip as most organ donor trips are, the operator doesn't know it's going to happen either.
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If the service is dedicated to organ harvests, they can pretty well predict it'll go down much like the OP's most of the time and manage for it.

Ted DuPuis said:
So you're saying an employer must tell their emploees to sleep? Yep, that'll work like a charm. :rofl:
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Not sleep. Rest. Not work. Not ski. Not drink. Nothing but rest. :nono: Or hit the bricks.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Yes, I've tried to sleep on command. It's because it can't be done that I know some sort of regular, predictable hours are required to fly safely. Calling somebody who's been out on the ski slopes all day and effectively saying, "You know all those black diamonds you sleep-walked through today? Well, you got your required rest for the 14 hour organ harvest tonight in hard IFR," doesn't pass the sniff test even if it's commonly practiced.
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They don't ask what you have done all day. It's none of their business unless it's other commercial flying or drinking. Of course you can refuse and say you are too tired but if you do that often enough they will find someone else.

dtuuri said:
If the service is dedicated to organ harvests, they can pretty well predict it'll go down much like the OP's most of the time and manage for it.
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I don't think Bryon's employer is dedicated to organ harvest. It's just a 135 operator that sometimes gets a call for an organ flight. That's not unusual. These flights sometimes happen at night but they can be during the day too so there is no predicting.
 
Well, I am not getting in to this ridiculous foray from a person that apparenly doesn't know the typical "on demand" nature of these flights. Suffice it to say that others are doing a much better job of explaining it than I care to.

While I may not have slept, I rested as much as possible in between flights. And it was perfectly legal. And, I am too wound up when I fly to sleep or even doze off in the middle of duty time. I cannot relax during the trip until I get home. It's a flaw I have, but it works for me on these runs.

Before you throw out your " perfect world" scenarios, get your facts straight.

And just so you know, we had another charter pop up that would have fit into my duty time after the next 10 hour off cycle, but I declined because I knew I could not get enough rest to be safe. Don't ever think our company doesn't think of safety.
 
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bbchien said:
Ted, you don't want to do organ flying. It's worse than freight-doggin. It's freight doggin under impossible deadlines with all sorts of eople beeping you.

It's like doing Emergency Room call and NOTHING ELSE. NONE of the good stuff.
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Actually, I usually enjoy them. It's normally a quick pick up and drop and no complaining passengers to spoil the ride, no tie, no uniform.

Airplane mechanic trips are much worse. You can never figure when they will be ready or how long they will take at the intermediate destination. Since they are on overtime, they sometimes milk it or everything its worth.

I get a good mix of day and night time charters, so I'm satisfied. More is always better, though.
 
Everskyward said:
They don't ask what you have done all day.
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They shouldn't have to ask if they told you to rest--you should be rested!

Everskyward said:
It's none of their business unless it's other commercial flying or drinking. Of course you can refuse and say you are too tired but if you do that often enough they will find someone else.
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If you were told to rest from "seven to seven" and you refuse the trip because you're "tired". You're fired! "None of their business" my foot.

Everskyward said:
I don't think Bryon's employer is dedicated to organ harvest. It's just a 135 operator that sometimes gets a call for an organ flight. That's not unusual. These flights sometimes happen at night but they can be during the day too so there is no predicting.
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So, let me see if I got this straight: Bryon's employer takes the day trips while Bryon is not resting at his "real job"; Bryon takes the night trips while his employer is resting (like, in bed)? Right away, I can tell who has more experience.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
They shouldn't have to ask if they told you to rest--you should be rested!


If you were told to rest from "seven to seven" and you refuse the trip because you're "tired". You're fired! "None of their business" my foot.


So, let me see if I got this straight: Bryon's employer takes the day trips while Bryon is not resting at his "real job"; Bryon takes the night trips while his employer is resting (like, in bed)? Right away, I can tell who has more experience.
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Like others have said, I don't think you have any concept of what the on-demand business is like, either as an employer or as an employee, so there is no point discussing it with you any more.
 
I think we are all dumber for reading what dtuuri has posted in here.

 
Aztec Driver said:
Actually, I usually enjoy them. It's normally a quick pick up and drop and no complaining passengers to spoil the ride, no tie, no uniform.

Airplane mechanic trips are much worse. You can never figure when they will be ready or how long they will take at the intermediate destination. Since they are on overtime, they sometimes milk it or everything its worth.

I get a good mix of day and night time charters, so I'm satisfied. More is always better, though.
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That's my impression. I wouldn't end up flying organs likely since I'm not on 135 anymore, and current life situation means that I won't be anytime soon. Besides, similar to what Allen said, it would be more for personal reasons than anything.

But Bruce has never flown dogs, I suspect. ;)
 
Aztec Driver said:
Actually, I usually enjoy them. It's normally a quick pick up and drop and no complaining passengers to spoil the ride, no tie, no uniform.
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Organ donations were normally pretty quick. Tissue donations, on the other hand...

After I saw one take place I know why they take a long time. That was an educational experience for someone with no medical background.
 
dtuuri said:
They shouldn't have to ask if they told you to rest--you should be rested!


If you were told to rest from "seven to seven" and you refuse the trip because you're "tired". You're fired! "None of their business" my foot.


So, let me see if I got this straight: Bryon's employer takes the day trips while Bryon is not resting at his "real job"; Bryon takes the night trips while his employer is resting (like, in bed)? Right away, I can tell who has more experience.

dtuuri
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Wow, where to start?
You don't have anything straight, that is an obvious fact for those of us that know part 135 on demand service.

My employer and I share duties, both day and night charters. There are times when he has been up all day, not on duty, and then has to take an all night charter. It is the nature of the business. One can "schedule" certain people at certain times all you want, but quite often multiple trips will pop up and require more pilots. You also cannot "schedule" pilots for certain times when no charters come up, because you can't pay them without the income. If one has the duty time, and one feels safe, one does the trip. If he is too tired from whatever, he asks me if I can go. If I am too tired, he will do the trip. Always within duty time limitations.
 
Everskyward said:
Organ donations were normally pretty quick. Tissue donations, on the other hand...

After I saw one take place I know why they take a long time. That was an educational experience for someone with no medical background.
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I don't think I have ever done one of those, although quite often I do not know what is in the coolers. Allen had a lot of good information on them earlier in the thread, prior to the thread creep. I was unaware of most of that info.
 
N801BH said:
Congrats to the OP for their dedication to saving another human life...:yes::yes:..

Now................... If both organs were going to the same airport... Why didn't the main dispatcher just send a bigger plane to carry both organs and transplant teams ????:dunno::dunno:..
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I'm guessing it is so that any delay by one team would not cause a delay for the other. If flexibility were an option, they could have made that decision at the time of departure, but I'm betting that there is not that sort of flexibility once plans have been made.
 
Aztec Driver said:
He apparently doesn't understand the basic concepts of running a business, either.
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He seems a bit off from his normal, fairly reasonable self. Maybe something is wrong?
 
dtuuri said:
Here's a few concepts I do understand:
"The FAA has consistently required rest to be 1) continuous, 2) determined prospectively (i.e. known in advance) and 3) free from all restraint by the certificate holder."​
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...interpretations/data/interps/2011/jimenez.pdf

dtuuri
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So you've never done anything fatigued in your life? Ever? Let alone fly an airplane. Oh the humanity! (Where is David's "Huge Manatee" picture?". I'm not a professional pilot (yet) but I know enough people who are (90% of them are 135) and although sometimes the circumstances aren't ideal they work. Good luck flying professionally and being able to meet the "rest rules" every single flight. The FAA also does not come to your house and tuck you in at night, so you don't need to worry about that either.
 
dtuuri said:
Yeah... like the First Circuit Court of Appeals:Fifty on-demand air taxi operators lost this argument 13 years ago.

dtuuri
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[T]he FAA has consistently interpreted the
term rest to mean that a flight crewmember
is free from actual work from the air
carrier or from present responsibility for
work should the occasion arise. Thus the
FAA previously has determined that a flight
crewmember on reserve was not at rest if the
flight crewmember had a present
responsibility for work in that the flight
crewmember had to be available for the
carrier to notify of a flight assignment.

duty-to-report and the duty-to-be available.


I was completely free of all duty for the air carrier. Not even needed to be available for phone calls. I was out of duty time, and could not be called for flight. What part of the article you linked suggests anything to the contrary?

Sheesh, Learn to comprehend what you read.
 
Z06_Mir said:
So you've never done anything fatigued in your life? Ever? Let alone fly an airplane. Oh the humanity! (Where is David's "Huge Manatee" picture?". I'm not a professional pilot (yet) but I know enough people who are (90% of them are 135) and although sometimes the circumstances aren't ideal they work. Good luck flying professionally and being able to meet the "rest rules" every single flight. The FAA also does not come to your house and tuck you in at night, so you don't need to worry about that either.
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Apparently he has never stayed up late, driven a car when exhausted, etc. Driving a car when extremely tired is just as dangerous, and just as deadly to all around him. Wow, what a Utopian world he has lived in.
 
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Z06_Mir said:
So you've never done anything fatigued in your life? Ever? Let alone fly an airplane. Oh the humanity! (Where is David's "Huge Manatee" picture?". I'm not a professional pilot (yet) but I know enough people who are (90% of them are 135) and although sometimes the circumstances aren't ideal they work. Good luck flying professionally and being able to meet the "rest rules" every single flight. The FAA also does not come to your house and tuck you in at night, so you don't need to worry about that either.
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I, and every pilot in our company's employ, meet the FAA's rest rules for every flight. If we can't, we don't do the flight.

It isn't the FAA's rest rules he has a problem with, it's his own definition of "rest." Others don't get the same amount and kind of rest he dictates, so the rest of us are obviously completely wrong, and it must be illegal because it doesn't match his interpretation.
 
Z06_Mir said:
So you've never done anything fatigued in your life? Ever? Let alone fly an airplane. Oh the humanity! (Where is David's "Huge Manatee" picture?". I'm not a professional pilot (yet) but I know enough people who are (90% of them are 135) and although sometimes the circumstances aren't ideal they work. Good luck flying professionally and being able to meet the "rest rules" every single flight. The FAA also does not come to your house and tuck you in at night, so you don't need to worry about that either.
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Well, Bryon did meet the legal rest rules, and that's how every operator I know of has been.

When I was flying 135 we had one crew for the airplane. We were never on call. Trips were either planned (then we knew) or pop-up. Either way, we always met the legal rest requirements.

The boss might call me at 2 PM after I've been up since 6 working on the house (hard physical labor) and say be at the airport at 6 for a trip that will get me home at 2. Yep, I'm still within the legal requirements. I wasn't on call, was free to rest and do whatever.
 
Z06_Mir said:
I'm not a professional pilot (yet) but I know enough people who are (90% of them are 135) and although sometimes the circumstances aren't ideal they work. Good luck flying professionally and being able to meet the "rest rules" every single flight.
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I did have good luck flying professionally, as a matter of fact. I flew for top-drawer air carriers from Executive Jet Aviation to United Airlines and I even set up a 135 air taxi operation, writing the LOC (letter of compliance) all by myself. But this isn't about my credibility, it's about common sense and the FAA's mindset. I also ran a corporate flight department and voluntarily applied 135 crew rest standards to all passenger flights for nearly 20 years because experience proved to me it was the right thing to do.

dtuuri
 
Aztec Driver said:
[T]he FAA has consistently interpreted the
term rest to mean that a flight crewmember
is free from actual work from the air
carrier or from present responsibility for
work should the occasion arise. Thus the
FAA previously has determined that a flight
crewmember on reserve was not at rest if the
flight crewmember had a present
responsibility for work in that the flight
crewmember had to be available for the
carrier to notify of a flight assignment.

duty-to-report and the duty-to-be available.


I was completely free of all duty for the air carrier. Not even needed to be available for phone calls. I was out of duty time, and could not be called for flight. What part of the article you linked suggests anything to the contrary?
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Rest has to be prospective.

The Circuit Court sided with the FAA on the "duty-to-report" scenario but threw out the "duty-to-be-available" scenario as "unripe". They told the air taxi companies to ask the FAA for an unequivical explanation regarding the "option" of the crewmember reporting and implied that if one weren't forthcoming they'd be happy to hear the case. Have they yet asked for it? I'm not aware if they did, but if not it speaks volumes about the confidence they have in their ability to persuade the court. After all, the court seemed to be offering suggestions to the FAA about how it might make a winning argument in such a future case simply by basing their "rest" rationale on maintaining normal sleep patterns.

dtuuri
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The boss might call me at 2 PM after I've been up since 6 working on the house (hard physical labor) and say be at the airport at 6 for a trip that will get me home at 2. Yep, I'm still within the legal requirements. I wasn't on call, was free to rest and do whatever.
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By your reckoning, you'd be 'legal' even if he called at 11:00 PM just as you're pulling the covers over your head and said, "Be at the airport at midnight for a 14 hour day." But you'd be 'illegal' if it was your boss's hangar you were working on all day, right?

Don't you feel silly trying to make that case?

dtuuri
 
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dtuuri said:
Don't you feel silly trying to make that case?
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Nope - my job was what my job was, followed all the rules as dictated by the chief pilot, POI, and FARs. Don't you feel silly trying to give people personal interpretations as regulation?
 
Aztec Driver said:
I, and every pilot in our company's employ, meet the FAA's rest rules for every flight. If we can't, we don't do the flight.

It isn't the FAA's rest rules he has a problem with, it's his own definition of "rest." Others don't get the same amount and kind of rest he dictates, so the rest of us are obviously completely wrong, and it must be illegal because it doesn't match his interpretation.
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That's what I mean. Poor wording on my part. His definition of "rest" is different from the hard-fast legal definition of rest. You, and 99% of other 135 operators, use the legal definition. He wants to use a perfect-world definition.



Tell me though, how as a 135 operator, do you force your pilots to sleep during their rest periods? I'm curious.
 
Z06_Mir said:
Tell me though, how as a 135 operator, do you force your pilots to sleep during their rest periods? I'm curious.
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That's the part you can't do. One could argue if you find your employees failing to sleep as required that you could fire them, but enforcement would still be pretty hard.

Take Medevac and SAR crews. In that case, they are on call and so for a certain number of hours per day, they sit in the room waiting to get a call. So theoretically they should adjust their sleep schedule.

Of course, they fly however many days on and however many days off, and on their days off they end up wanting to not be vampires and so they sleep during night hours. So that means that there's an adjustment the first few days on shift. Some folks basically intend on sleeping on duty (and the crew houses usually have beds) so they can do so.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Nope - my job was what my job was, followed all the rules as dictated by the chief pilot, POI, and FARs.
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I'm sure, in your own mind, you believe that. But get real. If your bleary eyes had misread your altimeter by 1,000 feet some dark rainy night and you killed a bunch of people--do you really think the FAA would have let your boss off the hook (you'll have been too dead to prosecute)? C'mon. :rolleyes:

dtuuri
 
Z06_Mir said:
His definition of "rest" is different from the hard-fast legal definition of rest. You, and 99% of other 135 operators, use the legal definition. He wants to use a perfect-world definition.
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Let me ask you, "Are flight attendants' rest requirements more stringent than pilots'?"

Here's an interpretation that, if your ideas on the matter are accurate, would certainly seem to say that:

dtuuri
 
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