Diesel Jetta v. Gas Honda Accord

[ScottM]

We were talking about this earlier this year and I thought I would give everyone an update. Well everyone or anyone that cares.

I have been tracking all the fuel ups on the Jetta since I bought it last May and for the Honda since 1 Jan 2010. So here is the comparison of fuel costs since 1 Jan.

Honda

Total miles: 2105.3
Ave. Price/gal : $2.83
Ave mpg : 26.1
Ave price / mile : $.11
Total Spent : $221.70

VW Jetta

Total miles: 3939
Ave. Price/gal : $3.00
Ave mpg : 37.4
Ave price / mile : $.08
Total Spent : $203.73

And thanks to the new car tax credits AND that the 2009 VW Jetta qualified as an 'alternative fuel' vehicle tax credit. I broke even on the pruchase price difference already.

The complete data can be viewed here http://www.fuelly.com/driver/scott16b

If you are thinking of going Diesel it can save you money and do it pretty darn quickly too.

 

[weilke]

Have you priced
- oil + filter changes (VAG compliant semisynthetic every 10k)
- fuel filter changes ( every 20k)
- DSG fluid + filter change ( every 40k)

into that comparison ?

I drive both, a TDI and an Accord, combined about 150k miles since 2007. At the pump, the Accord costs quite a bit more, but it is a V6 with about 2.5 times the hp than the Jetta. After factoring in increased VW maintenance cost and expenses to track down electrical gremlins, the difference is not significant.

It's a shame Honda reneged on their promise to bring the 2.2cdi to the US.

 

[ClimbnSink]

The VW will drive better(personal preference may vary) the Honda will give you less hassle after the cars are a few years old. Choose based on that. If you really want to save money buy an old truck or if fuel mileage is important to your personal value set an old Honda CRX they get 45 mpg+.

 

[ScottM]

Have you priced
- oil + filter changes (VAG compliant semisynthetic every 10k)

Yes. Free for the first 30k

- fuel filter changes ( every 20k)

free for the first 30k miles

- DSG fluid + filter change ( every 40k)

Just under $1k

into that comparison ?

Obviously no since all of the number I quoted were for fuel comparisons.

I drive both, a TDI and an Accord, combined about 150k miles since 2007. At the pump, the Accord costs quite a bit more, but it is a V6 with about 2.5 times the hp than the Jetta. After factoring in increased VW maintenance cost and expenses to track down electrical gremlins, the difference is not significant.

It's a shame Honda reneged on their promise to bring the 2.2cdi to the US.

My Honda has had a lot of maintenance as it is over 100k miles. It just had to have a new radiator. driver window motor, new oil sump gasket, etc. The Jetta is brand new so it has had nothing spent on maintenance. But if the cost of operations holds at where it is, $.08, and I drive 12 miles a year. That is $960 in fuel compared to the Honda at $1320 (same miles) saving me $360/year and I have had the Honda 13 years which is $4680 and that would go a long way for paying for those oils changes, DSG, and fuel filter changes.

 

[ScottM]

the Honda will give you less hassle after the cars are a few years old..

The Honda is already 13 years old and has need some sort of maintenance besides wear and tear every year I have had it. Be it air conditioning, a control for the rear window defogger, right strut that was leaky, radiator, oil pan gasket, water pump, window pump, etc. It was always a little something to just be annoying enough that it needed to be addressed but not enough to actually make me want to get rid of the car.

 

[Doggtyred]

If you are a highway driver, or making regular long trips you will find the Jetta's fuel economy is even higher.. >40 mpg. And you can get the fully equipped top of the line car for around $25k US where I live..

I would go with the Jetta hands down, and twice on Sunday. A friend of mine got one, and sold me on the concept, so much so, that mom went and got one, and loves it (and the fuel economy)..

When the time comes for me to buy a car (as opposed to a truck) I will get a TDI for myself too..

 

[weilke]

Yes. Free for the first 30k

free for the first 30k miles

'Free' as in 'factored into the purchase price'.

Just under $1k

I just had it done last fall, more like $450 (1c/mile). The timing belt is due at 100k, that one runs more in the $1200 range (another 1c/mile).

Obviously no since all of the number I quoted were for fuel comparisons.

If you want to 'save fuel', the Jetta is indeed a great car. I drove it 40k/year and the fuel savings where substantial, despite the fact that diesel was 30c more than gas during some of that time but there is just no gasser car that gets 48-50mpg (outside of hybrids with their own long-term issues).

That is $960 in fuel compared to the Honda at $1320 (same miles) saving me $360/year and I have had the Honda 13 years which is $4680 and that would go a long way for paying for those oils changes, DSG, and fuel filter changes.

Mh, maybe.

They are good enough cars, I grew up in a number of them. Going beyond warranty coverage can be a troubling experience and it is one of the few vehicles where a extended warranty is a good idea (tranny=8k , don't ask me how I know).

 

[ScottM]

'Free' as in 'factored into the purchase price'.

True that. But I negosiated my TDI to under sticker when there were people paying over sticker for one.

I just had it done last fall, more like $450 (1c/mile). The timing belt is due at 100k, that one runs more in the $1200 range (another 1c/mile).

That is good to hear. My friend had his Audi DSG just done and it was $850.

If you want to 'save fuel', the Jetta is indeed a great car. I drove it 40k/year and the fuel savings where substantial, despite the fact that diesel was 30c more than gas during some of that time but there is just no gasser car that gets 48-50mpg (outside of hybrids with their own long-term issues).

That is good to hear. There are a couple of unknowns with my TDI. It is a 2009 with the new (to US) engine and DPF. How the crappy diesel fuel we get here and how it will affect the DPF are little known right now. Hybrids have far too many unknowns for me to feel comfortable buying right now. At least the engine and DPF I have are running in Europe. My DSG did get a warranty extension and that was good news.

They are good enough cars, I grew up in a number of them. Going beyond warranty coverage can be a troubling experience and it is one of the few vehicles where a extended warranty is a good idea (tranny=8k , don't ask me how I know).

I run my cars until they fall apart. I am used to after warranty issues. It is still usually cheaper to fix something in the long run than to buy something new.

 

[weilke]

That is good to hear. My friend had his Audi DSG just done and it was $850.

That is because Audi dealers are known to fleece their customers with even more gusto than MB or VW.

That is good to hear. There are a couple of unknowns with my TDI.

The old TDIs (pre 2005) where known to last 300-500k miles. Their automatic transmissions where unmitigated crap, but the manual ones lasted forever (assuming regular 60k timing belt changes and the right oil). The only reason I didn't buy a manual at the time was the fact that VW had a serious quality problem with the flywheels at the time and that one employee who had to drive the car at times didn't know how to drive stick.

It is a 2009 with the new (to US) engine and DPF. How the crappy diesel fuel we get here and how it will affect the DPF are little known right now.

Well, the fuel has gotten better since the ULSD introduction in 2007. If you are in Illinois, you may be able to get Koch or Flint Hill Resources 'Gold' diesel. Mills Fleet and Farm sells it at their 'gasmart' stations. It has a higher cetane number and average BTU content. Since I have been running that stuff, the fuel filters come out light brown instead of 'tar-black with goo and flakes'.

Hybrids have far too many unknowns for me to feel comfortable buying right now. At least the engine and DPF I have are running in Europe.

Well, people have run some of the Prius into the 150-200k range with little problems and the battery change is just a budgeted item.

My DSG did get a warranty extension and that was good news.

Two things:
- Don't ever allow the car to be held up by the 'P' position of the tranny. ALLWAYS put on the parking brake, hammer this into the brain of anyone driving your car. The internal locking mechanism is quite fragile.
- If you get a shudder while slowing down and a 'rattle' at idle, have the tranny pulled. Your flywheel may be on its last leg, the next step if not paid attention to is a 10k+ repair bill. It shouldn't be a problem in the '09 models, but that is what they said in '06 as well .

I run my cars until they fall apart. I am used to after warranty issues. It is still usually cheaper to fix something in the long run than to buy something new.

Just had to 'put down' a '89 Volvo that served me well for many miles. The way I looked at it was that a head-gasket or water pump was still less than 2 monthly payments on a newer car. I don't think I have ever sold a car, for some reason they allways go directly to salvage.

 

[ScottM]

That is because Audi dealers are known to fleece their customers with even more gusto than MB or VW.

Well, the fuel has gotten better since the ULSD introduction in 2007. If you are in Illinois, you may be able to get Koch or Flint Hill Resources 'Gold' diesel. Mills Fleet and Farm sells it at their 'gasmart' stations. It has a higher cetane number and average BTU content. Since I have been running that stuff, the fuel filters come out light brown instead of 'tar-black with goo and flakes'.

I am not familiar with either of those fuels. The thing in Illinois is that 11 bio Diesel is almost ubiquitous while straight Diesel is hard to find. VW is saying not to run the DPFs with more than 5% bio as that 'could' cause problems. I have a source of straight Diesel close by but have had to put some bio in.

Two things:
- Don't ever allow the car to be held up by the 'P' position of the tranny. ALLWAYS put on the parking brake, hammer this into the brain of anyone driving your car. The internal locking mechanism is quite fragile.

That I knew and always put on the PB.

- If you get a shudder while slowing down and a 'rattle' at idle, have the tranny pulled. Your flywheel may be on its last leg, the next step if not paid attention to is a 10k+ repair bill. It shouldn't be a problem in the '09 models, but that is what they said in '06 as well .

I will keep a watch out for that and hope it never happens.

 

[weilke]

I am not familiar with either of those fuels. The thing in Illinois is that 11 bio Diesel is almost ubiquitous while straight Diesel is hard to find. VW is saying not to run the DPFs with more than 5% bio as that 'could' cause problems. I have a source of straight Diesel close by but have had to put some bio in.

Yeah, that's a real problem. If you ever have a problem with the DPF, VW can give you the runaround. They have done it before when it came to fuel pump issues (different fuel pump from your system, this was in the unit-injector models).

 

[sba55]

Mostly, that comparison seems to showcase the poor engine technology in the Honda. I get more than 26 mpg average with an engine that's almost 3x as powerful...

 

[jesse]

Mostly, that comparison seems to showcase the poor engine technology in the Honda. I get more than 26 mpg average with an engine that's almost 3x as powerful...

Well. You're not exactly using 3 times the power and getting that mileage.

 

[SCCutler]

I get 28MPG at 78MPH in my Cadillac Sedan Deville.

 

[ScottM]

I get 28MPG at 78MPH in my Cadillac Sedan Deville.

What is your average mpg that includes all of your driving?

Using one data point really does not tell you what your mpg is.
The last highway trip the Honda was getting 34mpg. But most of the driving is short haul suburban trips and that knocks it down.

Same thing with the Jetta. The ave is 37.4. But when I drove it to Memphis and back I got 44mpg

That is why I like that fuelly.com website. It lets you track your mpg over a wide variety of driving without a lot of work, gives some nice graphics and you can easily compare with other cars what your typical mpg is.

For example your Deville, is showing to be about an average of 21 to 23mpg.

http://www.fuelly.com/car/cadillac/deville

Not a lot of data points or current info for that model.

 

[Dr. O]

My son's VW Rabbit diesel averages 45-48 mpg highway...
My Saturn L300 coupe (3.0 liter gas V6) averages 33 mpg highway and 26 mpg all around...
My Silverado Duramax Diesel 6.6 liter averages 14mpg highway (pulling 11,000# of boat)
My airplane averages 9 mpg at 145 mph...
My diesel tugboat averages 6 mpg (at 6 knots)

denny-o

 

[wabower]

Fascinating stuff. How often do you have to get your shoes re-soled?

What is your average mpg that includes all of your driving?

Using one data point really does not tell you what your mpg is.
The last highway trip the Honda was getting 34mpg. But most of the driving is short haul suburban trips and that knocks it down.

Same thing with the Jetta. The ave is 37.4. But when I drove it to Memphis and back I got 44mpg

That is why I like that fuelly.com website. It lets you track your mpg over a wide variety of driving without a lot of work, gives some nice graphics and you can easily compare with other cars what your typical mpg is.

For example your Deville, is showing to be about an average of 21 to 23mpg.

http://www.fuelly.com/car/cadillac/deville

Not a lot of data points or current info for that model.

 

[tonycondon]

plus the jetta will pull a glider trailer.

 

[SCCutler]

What is your average mpg that includes all of your driving?

Using one data point really does not tell you what your mpg is.
The last highway trip the Honda was getting 34mpg. But most of the driving is short haul suburban trips and that knocks it down.

Same thing with the Jetta. The ave is 37.4. But when I drove it to Memphis and back I got 44mpg

That is why I like that fuelly.com website. It lets you track your mpg over a wide variety of driving without a lot of work, gives some nice graphics and you can easily compare with other cars what your typical mpg is.

For example your Deville, is showing to be about an average of 21 to 23mpg.

http://www.fuelly.com/car/cadillac/deville

Not a lot of data points or current info for that model.

In purely city driving, it settles around 17-18, not terribly bad for a large, massy vehicle (especially with the way I drive it). I lose probably 15% if I am driving with ethanol-contaminated gasoline, which is pretty much always here because of the ridiculous ethanol mandates here.

If I had a reasonable composite of city and highway, 21 to 23 would be a reasonable expectation. I have been surprised, though, at how good the mileage at speed is - much better than I expected when I bough the car. When driving, I can see why it's pretty good - very low rolling resistance and aerodynamics, when you lift off the gas, it does not slow down much.

 

[ScottM]

In purely city driving, it settles around 17-18, not terribly bad for a large, massy vehicle (especially with the way I drive it). I lose probably 15% if I am driving with ethanol-contaminated gasoline, which is pretty much always here because of the ridiculous ethanol mandates here.

That is not too bad. my ole Jeep Cheroke did not do that good in city driving and it was a big box too.

If I had a reasonable composite of city and highway, 21 to 23 would be a reasonable expectation. I have been surprised, though, at how good the mileage at speed is - much better than I expected when I bough the car. When driving, I can see why it's pretty good - very low rolling resistance and aerodynamics, when you lift off the gas, it does not slow down much.

It is amazing that the Honda and Caddy are so close in composite driving. My little BMW M-Roadster gets real good gas mileage until i start hammering on the accelerator, then it is the worst of all of the cars.

 

[weilke]

26 for a Accord is not that great. In long-distance driving, the 4 cylinders up to the '07 model year typically get more than 30. But then again, yours is 13 years old, may not have full compression etc.

 

[weilke]

plus the jetta will pull a glider trailer.

I don't think it is recommended to tow with the DSG transmission. I wouldn't stress it with more than 4 occupants and luggage would do to it, e.g. a light utility trailer.

 

[ScottM]

26 for a Accord is not that great. In long-distance driving, the 4 cylinders up to the '07 model year typically get more than 30. But then again, yours is 13 years old, may not have full compression etc.

the 26 is an average for all types of driving. As I mentioned in post 15 the number goes up to 34 mpg for highway driving.

 

[ScottM]

I don't think it is recommended to tow with the DSG transmission. I wouldn't stress it with more than 4 occupants and luggage would do to it, e.g. a light utility trailer.

The owners manual makes no limitation for the DSG for towing. On the TDI Club board a few people are towing an no one is reporting anything out of the ordinary. The people towing are saying that they like to switch to the manual mode DSG though.

 

[Ted]

I doubt long-term that the Jetta will actually be much cheaper due to reliability issues. However what you will get is a much higher resale value should you go to sell it.

When I had my Dodge Ram there was no question that the diesel saved me tons of money vs. gas. I also did a lot of towing and put a ton of miles on it. When I bought my Excursion, I intentionally bought the V10 instead of the gas. Lower maintenance costs, I wasn't towing or even driving as much anymore, and purchase price is way, way higher. I figure I'm well ahead of having bought one with a diesel in it, having saved roughly $12,000 on purchase price and driven it 40,000 miles, even if I'm using 50% more fuel than the diesel would be (diesel is still more expensive around here).

 

[AdamZ]

Wow all this Disel talk is getting me very interested. I drive a 2001 Mazda Millenia and get crap milage. usually just over 19mpg and 22mpg on a good run. Most of my driving is the suburbs perhaps 8-10 miles each way to work, on the Highway I'll get more but its not spectacular. I've thought about getting a more efficient car but it runs well and I want an airplane

My big concern is that I had near bad expereince with a VW Passat Wagon about 6-7 years ago. It was the first car I ever leased. about a year in to the 3 year lease a deer struck the car causing 10K worth of damage. The NTSB even contacted us about the accident ( there was fur on the roof rack) but the Pax compartment was solid and maintained its integrity exceptionally well. Our body shop used all genuine VW parts and We had all work on the engine and mechanicals done by a VW dealer.

Just one month before the lease was up and within about 100 mile of the warranty. I took it to a VW dealer for a check engine light. The car drove in fine. I handed the keys to the service writer and drove home with my wife. A day goes by, then a week then two and I'm like WTF I need the car whats the deal. Then I get a call from the service writer "uh theres a problem. You need a new engine. We did some work on the car and when we went to start itup to drive it out of the service bay the engine blew up" ( figurativly) Apparently the timing went TU.

So the Service guy says " we notice this car had some repair work from an accident" I say "Yup" He says " Gee that voids your warranty" I say "Bull feces" I'm not spending 16K for a new engine on a car I have to turn in in ONE WEEK!!

Fortunatly my law clerk was good family friends with the Service Manager at the VW Dealer so he put me in touch with him. He confirmed all work was done by a VW dealer and the warranty was good.

But he also said that a lot of VW engines were for crap. He said VW at somepoint decided to make several different engines rather than the few that they once made. He said that this attempt to now make several different models of engine ended up producing some inferior engines and you never knew what you were going to get. Long short was that the deer hit two years prior should not have done this to the car.

I was intending on buying or leasing another passat or even a Toureg but was so freaked about the engine blowing up with less than 40K on the car it really scared me away.

 

[AsjaL]

Which Passat model? I have a 2002 VW Passat wagon, V6 5-speed, with nearly 90K miles, and it has been very good. I bought it new and have taken good care of it. I've heard about their engine sludge problem, so I always used synthetic oil. One thing I noticed, inside the hood is a sticker stating the timing belt should be replaced every 75K miles, but the service manual says 105K, and the VW dealer had no idea what I was talking about, but the dealer here isn't that great, so at 75K I had the timing belt changed at a European car mechanic. This mechanic told me he has seen timing belts on VW/Audis go early. I think these are cars that you need to keep up with maintenance. Mine still drives and accelerates very well, I don't have complaints about it.

 

[rpadula]

Anyone have any scoop on the BMW 335d? If yer gonna burn diesel, might as well do it in style, right?

 

[ScottM]

Anyone have any scoop on the BMW 335d? If yer gonna burn diesel, might as well do it in style, right?

I have seen it. But that was as I was closing the deal on my Jetta.

 

[ScottM]

Which Passat model? I have a 2002 VW Passat wagon, V6 5-speed, with nearly 90K miles, and it has been very good. I bought it new and have taken good care of it. I've heard about their engine sludge problem, so I always used synthetic oil. One thing I noticed, inside the hood is a sticker stating the timing belt should be replaced every 75K miles, but the service manual says 105K, and the VW dealer had no idea what I was talking about, but the dealer here isn't that great, so at 75K I had the timing belt changed at a European car mechanic. This mechanic told me he has seen timing belts on VW/Audis go early. I think these are cars that you need to keep up with maintenance. Mine still drives and accelerates very well, I don't have complaints about it.

That timing belt is a big deal and from everyone I have talked to you did the right thing.

 

[Ted]

The timing belts are definite weak spots on VWs, and I've heard about a number of engines grenading on those cars from that. Then I've also seen some go to 200k miles without problems. The reason I won't buy a VW is that there's no consistency. Plus I just don't like the way they drive and they're a pain to work on.

It used to be that timing belts were changed at 60k for virtually all vehicles. Somewhere along the lines, people figured that they could push it some (field service history) and so they went up. 60,000 miles probably wasn't such a bad number after all.

In my experience, it's been hard to beat the reliability and serviceability of large-displacement American cars. Hands down my Fords and Chevys have lasted longer than my friends various import makes and been dirt cheap to keep running. Even my Jags have generally held up pretty well. I've not owned any Jap cars, but my mom's Infiniti that she owned had problems, and so did the Volvo she had before it. No thanks, I'll stick with my Ford.

 

[wsuffa]

While I generally like diesels and have enjoued the Tdi's when I've rented them, the experiences of every one of my friends that's owned a VW (diesel or gas) has been negative in terms of repairs and reliability....

 

[weilke]

Anyone have any scoop on the BMW 335d? If yer gonna burn diesel, might as well do it in style, right?

I am eyeing a X5 with the 3l diesel. Really sweet ride. I just can't see myself parting with that much money for something that can't take off.

 

[weilke]

You need a new engine. We did some work on the car and when we went to start itup to drive it out of the service bay the engine blew up" ( figurativly) Apparently the timing went TU.

Sounds like maintenance induced failure to me.

So the Service guy says " we notice this car had some repair work from an accident" I say "Yup" He says " Gee that voids your warranty" I say "Bull feces" I'm not spending 16K for a new engine on a car I have to turn in in ONE WEEK!!

VW dealers are for the most part awful, the real bottom-barrel crowd that somehow managed to get a franchise. Every other dealer will try to do as much work as possible on the manufacturers dime, the VW dealers try to stick as much to the customer as possible. Reneging on their warranty is standard procedure. VW of America is unfortunatly not much better.

But he also said that a lot of VW engines were for crap. He said VW at somepoint decided to make several different engines rather than the few that they once made.

There are some really stellar engines from a maintenance perspective, unfortunately they don't sell them in the US anymore. There used to be 1.8 and 2.0 liter 2-valve I4 engines that would run forever. Now, the gas jetta comes with some 2.5l abomination that they generated by cutting a lamborghini engine in half. They don't even sell this crap anywhere else. The 1.8 and 2.0 turbo engines are pretty good, people just need to learn to actually read the manual where it specifies certain VAG standards regarding filters and engine oil. If you just pour Walmart cheapo mineral oil with minimal additives in and screw on too small an oil filter just because it fits you will get sludge.

The diesels are for the most part good, some component problems (dual mass flywheels, cams with faulty hardening, spalling lifters) in the '05-'07 models.

I was intending on buying or leasing another passat or even a Toureg but was so freaked about the engine blowing up with less than 40K on the car it really scared me away.

If someone else picks up the tab and you can just lease them for three years, keep them under warranty and hand them back to the dealer they are great cars.

 

[weilke]

It used to be that timing belts were changed at 60k for virtually all vehicles. Somewhere along the lines, people figured that they could push it some (field service history) and so they went up. 60,000 miles probably wasn't such a bad number after all.

They upgraded the idlers in the early 2000s, since then most of the engines have 100k TB intervals. Not much different from many other cars.

 

[rpadula]

I am eyeing a X5 with the 3l diesel. Really sweet ride. I just can't see myself parting with that much money for something that can't take off.

Well, having just sold the plane, I have the $$$'s, but not the inclination, to do so. I've actually been looking around at 2002-3 530's. What they did to the 5-series in 2004 makes me want to poke my eyes out!

 

[weilke]

Well, having just sold the plane, I have the $$$'s, but not the inclination, to do so. I've actually been looking around at 2002-3 530's. What they did to the 5-series in 2004 makes me want to poke my eyes out!

Lol, yeah, I said the same in 1988.

 

[rpadula]

Lol, yeah, I said the same in 1988.

Well, I currently have an '88 528e (E28) and think the E34's are fugly too.

Guess 5-series design is like Star Trek movies -- every other one sucks.

 

[weilke]

Well, I currently have an '88 528e (E28)

Sweet. Do you buy your oil by the barrel .

 

[wsuffa]

Sweet. Do you buy your oil by the barrel .

Last I heard, he was looking at planes with R-3350 engines to replace the Commander ..