Diamond Aircraft going to embargoed Myanmar (a.k.a. Burma)

Diamond is owned by the Chinese Communist Party. They don't care about EU embargoes.
 
Domenick said:
Diamond is owned by the Chinese Communist Party. They don't care about EU embargoes.
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No, Diamond is owned by Wanfeng Auto Holding Group, which is generally independent of the government. The Chinese government doesn't care about EU, or USA for that matter, embargoes as you correctly state. That means Chinese companies don't care either, anymore than we care about Chinese embargos against individuals and single companies.

It makes a difference. Under USA law, I can work with Syngene (India) but not Syngene (China) because Syngene in China is directly owned by the Chinese government. I don't know why the difference since the information and equipment can certainly be sent to China from India. I just had to deal with this exact situation recently. I just follow the law to the best of my ability.
 
That article makes it appear that Diamond in Austria is dealing directly with Myanmar. I don't see how it could be just the parent company in China who would provide "on-site support of Diamond Aircraft technicians from Austria and Germany." That does appear to violate the EU's arms embargo, which would include training.

The article also makes it appear that Diamond is re-exporting Garmin products to Myanmar, and I would bet that's a a violation of US law.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
The Chinese government doesn't care about EU, or USA for that matter, embargoes as you correctly state. That means Chinese companies don't care either, anymore than we care about Chinese embargos against individuals and single companies.
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Nicely stated - makes sense. Will the EU want to and be able to throw a wrench into this as Diamond is on their soil? DK
 
NoHeat said:
That article makes it appear that Diamond in Austria is dealing directly with Myanmar. I don't see how it could be just the parent company in China who would provide "on-site support of Diamond Aircraft technicians from Austria and Germany." That does appear to violate the EU's arms embargo, which would include training.

The article also makes it appear that Diamond is re-exporting Garmin products to Myanmar, and I would bet that's a a violation of US law.
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Yes, exporting Garmin products to a prohibited nation is a violation of US law, and probably goes against contracts between Garmin and Diamond.

I just checked our corporate restricted list and didn't see Myanmar (or Burma) listed as places we can't work with.. There are some restrictions, but I don't know if they apply to this situation:
https://www.commerce.gov/news/press...w-export-controls-burma-and-makes-entity-list
 
So is Cirrus and Lycoming FWIW

EDIT - Continental, not Lycoming is Chinese
 
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WDD said:
So is Cirrus and Lycoming FWIW
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Lycoming is owned by Textron. Continental has Chinese ownership, also Glassair.

Some these Chinese ownership groups are wealthy Chinese fleeing with their wealth to the USA. Buying money losing aviation companies was a means to get money out and an acceptable excuse to the CCP. Most people don't realize the CCP has the right to take any private money in a Chinese bank as its won. Expatriating money was shutdown as China is experience cash shortfalls, and acquisition of USA companies must specifically fulfill the goals of the CCP. Buying Ag land is one example.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
No, Diamond is owned by Wanfeng Auto Holding Group, which is generally independent of the government. ...
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If a company is owned by a Chinese national, it is owned by the CCP. There are no private companies in CCP China. One of those 'C's stands for "Communist".
 
Domenick said:
If a company is owned by a Chinese national, it is owned by the CCP. There are no private companies in CCP China. One of those 'C's stands for "Communist".
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You are very wrong. They are highly regulated, but there are private and joint-stock companies there as well as government owned companies. VietNam has the same business model. They are "communist" in name only.
I've a friend in Suzhou who has set up her own fitness center. It is HER business, and she gets permits, rents space, markets her fitness center pretty much the same as here. The government didn't tell her whether she could or couldn't open her business.

https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2023/01/02/chinas-stunning-economic-turn/
The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) discovered the most effective economic model in the world, capable of sustaining high growth rates over long periods of time—or so it seemed. The Chinese economic model is called a socialist market economy, and it is characterized by state and privately owned businesses (Asialink Business).
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https://www.investopedia.com/articl...omies-how-china-cuba-and-north-korea-work.asp

sarangan said:
I had no idea Diamond was owned by China. How sad.
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It's owned by a Chinese company, not the government. The person to whom you replied has, at best, a superficial knowledge of the Chinese economic system.
 
Uh. The Chinese will let you do what you want if it is in their best interest.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
You are very wrong. They are highly regulated, but there are private and joint-stock companies there as well as government owned companies. VietNam has the same business model. They are "communist" in name only.
I've a friend in Suzhou who has set up her own fitness center. It is HER business, and she gets permits, rents space, markets her fitness center pretty much the same as here. The government didn't tell her whether she could or couldn't open her business...
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Do you REALLY believe the CCP treats a fitness center or restaurant like Wanfeng Auto Holding Group Co., Ltd a huge industrial and military supplier? Headquartered in Xinchang County, China, WAHG is a parts and equipment manufacturer for the automotive industry, aerospace industry, military industry, and energy saving. Look it up.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Yes, exporting Garmin products to a prohibited nation is a violation of US law, and probably goes against contracts between Garmin and Diamond.

I just checked our corporate restricted list and didn't see Myanmar (or Burma) listed as places we can't work with.. There are some restrictions, but I don't know if they apply to this situation:
https://www.commerce.gov/news/press...w-export-controls-burma-and-makes-entity-list
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Garmin is Swiss, not American. Unless the units are made in the US, what law would they violate?

Real question. I am not an export expert.
 
Garmin is a US company headquartered in Olathe KS. The name is contraction of names of the two guys that started the business. Definitely not Swiss, though they have an office there.
 
Hang 4 said:
Garmin is a US company headquartered in Olathe KS. The name is contraction of names of the two guys that started the business. Definitely not Swiss, though they have an office there.
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As a Garmin shareholder, I disagree. They are a Swiss company.
 
Domenick said:
Do you REALLY believe the CCP treats a fitness center or restaurant like Wanfeng Auto Holding Group Co., Ltd a huge industrial and military supplier? Headquartered in Xinchang County, China, WAHG is a parts and equipment manufacturer for the automotive industry, aerospace industry, military industry, and energy saving. Look it up.
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Yes, and no. I did look them up. They might under more scrutiny for their quality control, just as Boeing and General Electric (or Teledyne, where I work) has to jump through more hoops. For the most part, Chinese companies are left alone unless they do something that embarrasses the government. I'll be working with one of their lab suppliers in early September. I do note that often, something can "simmer" until it gets on social media, where the government notices, rather than the regular inspections we do here.
 
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ElPaso Pilot said:
Garmin Ltd. (shortened to Garmin, stylized as GARMIN, and formerly known as ProNav) is an American, Swiss-domiciled multinational technology company founded in 1989 by Gary Burrell and Min Kao in Lenexa, Kansas, United States, with headquarters in Olathe, Kansas.[2][3] Since 2010, the company is legally incorporated in Schaffhausen, Switzerland.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garmin
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I assume that means you agree with me? All of their SEC filings are out of Switzerland.

Screenshot_20230622_174719_Drive.jpg
 
Interesting. Their own website shows HQ in Olathe. Guessing it’s for tax reasons.
 
Did a quick read of their SEC filings. Swiss incorporated, but all top level management in Olathe. Kind of like a Delaware corporation with HQ somewhere else.
 
It’s common. The company i previously worked at whose historical headquarters and origins are Chicago is incorporated/domiciled in Dublin (and London pre-Brexit).
 
Why'd you say "Burma" ?
 
I was in Burma/Myanmar in 2014 for a project. This was just before the election. There was a LOT of western funded development going on in Yangon at the time. One interesting observation - In Vietnam, it's common to see American Vietnam war era vehicles driving around in the streets - including full restorations of M151's and M35 Deuces. You see the same in Burma as well - except the vehicles date back to WWII. It's kind of a fun place, if you can get past the heat and humidity, which is the worst in all of Southeast Asia. Okay, I take that back, honestly, it really isn't a very fun place.
 
Domenick said:
Do you REALLY believe the CCP treats a fitness center or restaurant like Wanfeng Auto Holding Group Co., Ltd a huge industrial and military supplier? Headquartered in Xinchang County, China, WAHG is a parts and equipment manufacturer for the automotive industry, aerospace industry, military industry, and energy saving. Look it up.
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Cap'n Jack said:
Yes, and no. I did look them up. They might under more scrutiny for their quality control, just as Boeing and General Electric (or Teledyne, where I work) has to jump through more hoops. For the most part, Chinese companies are left alone unless they do something that embarrasses the government. I'll be working with one of their lab suppliers in early September. I do note that often, something can "simmer" until it gets on social media, where the government notices, rather than the regular inspections we do here.
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Here's a perfect example of what I said- now that the government got embarrassed, they will do the appropriate inspections now:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Yinchuan_gas_explosion
 
Cap'n Jack said:
No, Diamond is owned by Wanfeng Auto Holding Group, which is generally independent of the government. The Chinese government doesn't care about EU, or USA for that matter, embargoes as you correctly state. That means Chinese companies don't care either, anymore than we care about Chinese embargos against individuals and single companies.

It makes a difference. Under USA law, I can work with Syngene (India) but not Syngene (China) because Syngene in China is directly owned by the Chinese government. I don't know why the difference since the information and equipment can certainly be sent to China from India. I just had to deal with this exact situation recently. I just follow the law to the best of my ability.
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Generally independent - is that like being a little bit pregnant? Chinese intel is so far up their industry's butt they take their Preparation H orally.
 
Sundancer said:
Generally independent - is that like being a little bit pregnant? Chinese intel is so far up their industry's butt they take their Preparation H orally.
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It depends on the company. Some are independent, others are ties to the Chinese government. Your simile doesn't hold here.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
It depends on the company. Some are independent, others are ties to the Chinese government. Your simile doesn't hold here.
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Try it a different way, simile and metaphor free: Chinese companies will cooperate with the Chinese intelligence service when tasked - in whatever fashion is demanded of them - overt, covert, active, or passive.
 
Hang 4 said:
Did a quick read of their SEC filings. Swiss incorporated, but all top level management in Olathe. Kind of like a Delaware corporation with HQ somewhere else.
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Their address in Switzerland is an EU outsource service provider. Common for companies with no actual presence in a company to use one of those as their "HQ" address. Likely there aren't even any real full-time Garmin employees in Switzerland.
 
Sundancer said:
Try it a different way, simile and metaphor free: Chinese companies will cooperate with the Chinese intelligence service when tasked - in whatever fashion is demanded of them - overt, covert, active, or passive.
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And Amazon, Google, and Microsoft don't cooperate with the US government when asked? Apple is, AFAIK, the only one that didn't bend over when asked to unlock an iPhone. The police need merely ask for your phone records here, after getting a court order, which doesn't seem very difficult. Many (most?) companies here will cooperate with the police and FBI as well with no court order.
I see very little difference between here and there, except for the subpoena that is easily obtained by law enforcement.
https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/2/24/21133600/police-fbi-phone-search-protests-password-rights

Having been there several times, I know I'm under special observation, but I've never had an issue with the Chinese police or government.
 
If you can't see the difference you aren't looking . . .US companies do not, as a rule, function as an extension of a state security service, one whose primary goal is keeping the people in power, in power. Amazon, google, and MS are constrained by law, as are the FBI and other Fed agencies. Abuses? Sure - some. . . and repercussions are real when abuses are revealed. By and large, the US is governed by the force of law. China is governed by the desires of those in power, without checks and balances.
 
Sundancer said:
If you can't see the difference you aren't looking . . .US companies do not, as a rule, function as an extension of a state security service, one whose primary goal is keeping the people in power, in power. Amazon, google, and MS are constrained by law, as are the FBI and other Fed agencies. Abuses? Sure - some. . . and repercussions are real when abuses are revealed. By and large, the US is governed by the force of law. China is governed by the desires of those in power, without checks and balances.
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What I see is that the USA is heading in the same direction as the Chinese government, but using a different method to "keep their hands clean".

The US government buys location information:
https://www.vox.com/recode/22278402/x-mode-sdk-google-play-ban-location-data

Overly broad "keyword" warrants:
https://nypost.com/2021/10/06/us-government-ordering-search-engines-to-provide-search-data/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/technology/personal-data-apple-google-facebook.html

Searches based "by the desires of those in power"
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/technology/personal-data-apple-google-facebook.html
The Justice Department, starting in the early days of the Trump administration, secretly sought data from some of the biggest tech companies about journalists, Democratic lawmakers and White House officials as part of wide-ranging investigations into leaks and other matters, The New York Times reported last week.

The revelations, which put the companies in the middle of a clash over the Trump administration’s efforts to find the sources of news coverage, raised questions about what sorts of data tech companies collect on their users, and how much of it is accessible to law enforcement authorities.
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Microsoft working with the NSA to allow encrypted user communications to be intercepted:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-collaboration-user-data

This thread shows how much big tech follows you:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/na-theyre-listening-and-i-dont-like-it.143459/
 
hindsight2020 said:
the CCP whataboutism apologetics are strong on this one....
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No, the USA seems to be heading in the same direction-
Primary not certified because one party doesn't like the outcome, makes false narrative about voting machines:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politi...mary-results-over-distrust-of-voting-machines

Maine governor didn't like election results, wouldn't certify primary elections:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/latest-r...1byZ6RUiD0Voa51hxvdwwtfn_hn3QzEfq-uHALA1ZPGdL

A governor restored voting rights primarily to felons that supported his party:
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story...s-who-got-theirs-back-under-scott/5886930007/

Several states refuse to certify primary elections:
https://www.salon.com/2022/07/30/of...-this-is-how-are-planning-to-steal-elections/

Attacks on free speech:
https://www.ft.com/content/e2ac9142-107e-4d45-8fd9-cf5f274cab8c
 
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At least when China spreads their seed in other nations they do it by building roads bridges and colleges, vs the US policy of bombing people into submission.
 
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