DFW Pilots - Question from a Rookie Pilot

MBDiagMan

MBDiagMan

Final Approach
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
5,230
Location
Mount Pleasant,Texas
Display Name
Display name:
Doc
I am a brand new Private Pilot with over 500 landings. Probably 490 of those landings have been at uncontrolled airports. I recently started venturing into North Texas Regional (Perrin AFB ) which is Class D airspace.

I flub up every communication with them in some way, but they are very accommodating and very patient.

I really need to fly to Grand Prairie (KGPM) in the next few days, and an alternate won't really do given that my 86 year old Mom will pick me up at the airport and would not be able to find Lancaster or any other place in the area.

SO.. How buisy is this airport? How accommodating of a rookie are they at this airport?

Thanks very much for sharing your experience.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I am a brand new Private Pilot with over 500 landings. Probably 490 of those landings have been at uncontrolled airports. I recently started venturing into North Texas Regional (Perrin AFB ) which is Class D airspace.

I flub up every communication with them in some way, but they are very accommodating and very patient.

I really need to fly to Grand Prairie (KGPM) in the next few days, and an alternate won't really do given that my 86 year old Mom will pick me up at the airport and would not be able to find Lancaster or any other place in the area.

SO.. How buisy is this airport? How accommodating of a rookie are they at this airport?

Thanks very much for sharing your experience.
Click to expand...

What exactly are you "flubbing"?
 
yup doc, so far you have 'flubbed' this communication - you didn't give us enough information...

OK all levity aside - it is not possible to flub your communication with the airport - use plain english and forget about trying to sound like the Captain of a 777 like your CFI tried to pound into you ( a frustrated wannabe captain)..

When within the airport approach control area simply call approach control and when they acknowledge you, tell them where you are and say you are inbound and landing to pick up a passenger...
(yup, that is more than he needs to say to approach guys - give it a rest and let the man get on with it)
After a bit of vectoring approach will transfer you to the tower... Again simply tell them you are landing and picking up a passenger and will need progressive taxi instructions...
After you exit the active runway you will be sent to ground control... Tell the man in simple english you are picking up a passenger at the terminal (or wherever) and you need progressive taxi instructions...

Same deal leaving... Before engine start, call departure (if they have one) and tell the man in simple words that you need to depart VFR, in a certain direction to an airport somewhere, and at some altitude... You will be given instructions on what to do...
After engine start call ground control and ask for progressive taxi instructions... He will hold your hand all the way to the hold short line...
When there call the tower and tell them you are ready to go... When he turns you loose follow the heading he gives and call departure control, etc. etc. etc...

In every case, you are not an airline captain - don't pretend to sound like one... Make simple requests in plain english, no jargon, and everyone involved will tell you what you need to do next... Taint possible to "flub" it unless you are an alien from outer space who doesn't speak english...

denny-o
 
I fly out of a controlled airport and to help me in the beginning was to listen to live ATC. I would listen to their "instructions" and then read them back out loud.
 
Nothing to it, the controllers in this area know that Yeager and Hoover have retired and their replacements aren't quite as cool on the mic.

Somewhere around McKinney, get the GPM ATIS then call regional on 124.3. Be prepared for the freq to be somewhat busy, so be ready with "Regional, Cessna ____" as your initial call-up.

When queried, go through the standard who, where what routine. They may switch you to 124.25 or some other freq as you go across, probably some vectors around Addison and Love.

Since you know where you're going and who you'll be talking to, there's no fine or penalty if you practice until you can say it without tripping on your tongue.
 
Doc, no one is immune.

My experience is the opposite where I'm in and out of controlled airports frequently. I've flown USAG's Warrior many times now, made many call ups to many controllers. And on occasion, I STILL trip over the tail number when trying to say it out loud.

The advice of the others above should help you. Especially Wayne's "write it down and practice the script a bit".

If you want to read a good book on comms, "Say it again, please..." by Bob Gardner is a good selection. You can find it on ASA's website, www.asa2fly.com
 
Thanks for the help and encouragement guys! Wayne has met me, flown with me and knows my temporament, so it especially helps to hear from Wayne on the matter.

Actually Wayne, I was planning on going a little East of the TCA, maybe underneath the outer ring and then go West when I'm South of Redbird. I guess though, that this would be the wimps way out.
 
Heh - just speak English - these days, they'll be glad for just that!

To tell the truth, your "around the curve" idea sounds reasonable.
 
No Doc, it's not a wimps way out. It's prudent planning for someone new to the area. It will give you a chance to listen to approach and relax a little on your way around the curve before you are handed off to GPM.
 
Yes, we have those students coming into Bonham from time to time. Even if they're not coming into our airport, I hear them on the common frequencies at other airports.

I'm really glad to see ANYONE flying and involved in General Aviation and PLEASE don't think this is a racist remark in any way because I am NOT a racist. Sometimes though, the English is just absolutely unintelligible.

I want everyone to fly, but it seems that when they can not be understood, this would be a safety hazard.

Just sayin'
 
I'm amazed that the controllers can understand them, seemingly without much problem other than the occasional "say again." After flying around the world for several years in a G-whiz, it's also interesting to hear the controllers in various countries grind out instructions in English. Also mostly unintelligible, espcecially the basso Italians.

I become more tolerant of their language problems when I think about how it would sound if I had to learn another tongue in order to fly my airplane. NFW


MBDiagMan said:
Yes, we have those students coming into Bonham from time to time. Even if they're not coming into our airport, I hear them on the common frequencies at other airports.

I'm really glad to see ANYONE flying and involved in General Aviation and PLEASE don't think this is racist remark in anyway because I am NOT a racist. Sometimes though, the English is just absolutely unintelligible.

I want everyone to fly, but it seems that when they can not be understood, this would be a safety hazard.

Just sayin'
Click to expand...
 
Yes Wayne. I'm sure that it's difficult for them. Learning a foreign language is TOUGH. I learned some German when stationed there in the Army 40 years ago. I started going to Germany quite alot in the early 2000's on business and worked on it some more.

Except for youngsters who seem to learn a foreign language much more easily than adults, learning a foreign language to almost any level is TOUGH. To be fluent is tougher. Speaking it so that it is easily understood is REALLY tough.

I have all the patience in the world for them, but occasionally it seems unsafe.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Yes Wayne. I'm sure that it's difficult for them. Learning a foreign language is TOUGH. I learned some German when stationed there in the Army 40 years ago. I started going to Germany quite alot in the early 2000's on business and worked on it some more.

Except for youngsters who seem to learn a foreign language much more easily than adults, learning a foreign language to almost any level is TOUGH. To be fluent is tougher. Speaking it so that it is easily understood is REALLY tough.

I have all the patience in the world for them, but occasionally it seems unsafe.
Click to expand...
Fly south of the border into Mexico where half or more of the transmissions are in Spanish...
 
Foreign students at least use a radio! We have "pilots" around here in pietenpols and no they don't adhere to the sunset rule. Man airplanes are dark when the lights aren't on!! They can't even tell you where they are!
 
MBDiagMan said:
Thanks for the help and encouragement guys! Wayne has met me, flown with me and knows my temporament, so it especially helps to hear from Wayne on the matter.

Actually Wayne, I was planning on going a little East of the TCA, maybe underneath the outer ring and then go West when I'm South of Redbird. I guess though, that this would be the wimps way out.
Click to expand...

Jeanie said:
No Doc, it's not a wimps way out. It's prudent planning for someone new to the area. It will give you a chance to listen to approach and relax a little on your way around the curve before you are handed off to GPM.
Click to expand...

I used to fly out of GPM all the time; a good friend of mine (lady pilot) owns the FBO there now (Aviator Air). Tell Leslie that Troy sent you. They've got a nice new terminal at GPM now too, just finished construction!

What Jeanie said---going south under the Class B then heading west is super simple, and following I-20 (keep it off your left / south wing) makes it very easy and keeps you north of the big Cedar Hill and its towers!! No problem crossing midfield over Dallas Executive (Redbird), just call them around I-45... "Executive Tower, Cessna xxxxx, x.x miles east, two thousand, request midfield crossing, Grand Prairie." They'll clear you through their Class D and you're on your way. By now, you should have received the GPM ATIS.

Keep your nose pointed straight at the south end of Mountain Creek Lake (with the old Vought Aircraft runway, TX18, you can't miss it) and you'll be pointed at midfield for GPM. Before you get to Mountain Creek Lake you should be talking to GPM; as soon as you cross midfield at KRBD, I'd ask the tower controller for a frequency change to GPM.

Then, you'll probably be sequenced for a left or right downwind to 17 or 35, depending on which way they are landing. Note that if they are landing north, a lot of student traffic can be inbound from the south, as they go out over Joe Pool Lake and Midlothian to practice. Keep your head on a swivel. There's also often helicopter traffic skirting along I-20, and traffic inbound and outbound from nearby Arlington. No big deal, just communicate and watch, and do!!

There's a nice water tower on the east side of the airport as a visual aid, and if you cross over Hwy 360 that runs north and south, you've gone too far!!
 
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MBDiagMan said:
I am a brand new Private Pilot with over 500 landings. Probably 490 of those landings have been at uncontrolled airports. I recently started venturing into North Texas Regional (Perrin AFB ) which is Class D airspace.

I flub up every communication with them in some way, but they are very accommodating and very patient.

I really need to fly to Grand Prairie (KGPM) in the next few days, and an alternate won't really do given that my 86 year old Mom will pick me up at the airport and would not be able to find Lancaster or any other place in the area.

SO.. How buisy is this airport? How accommodating of a rookie are they at this airport?

Thanks very much for sharing your experience.
Click to expand...

Doc - Ten days ago, I was cleared through the BRAVO SFO AIRSPACE and jets were being RESTRICTED below me. I found the recordings (finally) and was sad to hear all my "mess ups" were recorded over (live ATC has several channels in one). Here are just a few from memory from that one day:

Class Bravo clearance - told them I didn't know what a VOR was (yikes). Don't know why - nerves I guess. They'd told me to stay West of the Watsonville VOR so I just asked in plain English if flying the coastline was OK and you could hear them, annoyed, say back to me "approved as requested".
Class Bravo clearance - asked them to repeat several things, several times. Again, yikes.
Class C airport - read back the wrong runway TWICE (I think)
Class C airport - held short when I was supposed to proceed
Class C airport - couldn't taxi correctly (he came on the radio and said "the centerline is to your left" so I went to the next centerline to the left then he said "the centerline is still to your left" so I went to the THIRD YELLOW LINE on an 8000 foot taxiway). Yikes.

I think you get the idea! You can't be worse than me. You'll do fine.
 
I don't know what the Watsonville VOR is either. Did you mean Woodside?
 
Kimberly.... At least he didn't come back on freq and say,

"you out your left wing in, you put your left wing out. You put your left wing in and shake it all about...."
 
AggieMike88 said:
Kimberly.... At least he didn't come back on freq and say,

"you out your left wing in, you put your left wing out. You put your left wing in and shake it all about...."
Click to expand...

Actually he did come back on the radio.

He - I guess - liked my voice or was bored (no traffic on radio before or after me at Class C it was New Years Day and DEAD)......

He said, "Yeah, all those lines can be confusing"

(I thought it was cute, so I talked back)

I said, "Sure but I thought you were supposed to be one of the EASY airports" (They have a really simply taxi layout)

And then he said "We are!!!"


LOL I heart controllers who put up with me.

I AM WITHOUT A DOUBT THEIR WORST NIGHTMARES.... COME TRUE.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Actually he did come back on the radio.

He - I guess - liked my voice or was bored (no traffic on radio before or after me at Class C it was New Years Day and DEAD)......

He said, "Yeah, all those lines can be confusing"

(I thought it was cute, so I talked back)

I said, "Sure but I thought you were supposed to be one of the EASY airports" (They have a really simply taxi layout)

And then he said "We are!!!"


LOL I heart controllers who put up with me.

I AM WITHOUT A DOUBT THEIR WORST NIGHTMARES.... COME TRUE.
Click to expand...

I'm sure i've annoyed some controllers a time or two! They must get stuff like that a lot though, because out of the bits and pieces, and stutters/hesitations I might give them every now and then, they know exactly what I said. :rofl:
 
Oh and on my way in I did the call wrong - he said "Juliet is current" or something as a way of reminding me that I had not given him the ATIS code in my call up - though I did have the latest ATIS and wrote it down. I think he cleared me to land - don't remember - and I had the balls to say on frequency "which runway?"

He said back "I'll tell you when you get a lot closer".

They are VERY patient with me.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
LOL I heart controllers who put up with me.

I AM WITHOUT A DOUBT THEIR WORST NIGHTMARES.... COME TRUE.
Click to expand...

You'd get along great with the tower gang at KAFW. Google "Information Bubba" and find the audio playback to see what I mean.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Oh and on my way in I did the call wrong - he said "Juliet is current" or something as a way of reminding me that I had not given him the ATIS code in my call up - though I did have the latest ATIS and wrote it down. I think he cleared me to land - don't remember - and I had the balls to say on frequency "which runway?"
Click to expand...

If you don't tell them *which* ATIS you have, they're going to tell you which one is current. He doesn't have a choice.

AIM 4-1-13...

"Pilots should notify controllers on initial contact that they have received the ATIS broadcast by repeating the alphabetic code word appended to the broadcast."

(My emphasis added in bold.)

"Controllers will issue pertinent information to pilots who do not acknowledge receipt of of broadcast, or who acknowledge receipt of a broadcast which is not current."

"While it is a good operating practice for pilots to make use of the ATIS broadcast where it is available, some pilots use the phrase "Have Numbers" in communications with the control tower. Use of this phrase means that the pilot has received wind, runway, and altimeter information ONLY and the tower does not have to repeat this information. It does not indicate receipt of the ATIS broadcast and should never be used for this purpose."

There's a bit more in the AIM, but those are the pertinent items.

If I really haven't gotten the ATIS and I'm behind, I'll actually say "Negative ATIS" on initial call up to a Tower with the rest of the who I am, who I'm calling, where I am, and what I want "stuff".

"Centennial Tower, Skylane 1279M 12 northeast, landing full-stop, negative ATIS."

Or when you remember and get it right...

"Centennial Tower, Skylane 1279M, north-shore Cherry Creek Reservoir, landing full-stop, with Information Victor."

Some controllers will let you get away with telling them "We'll pick up Victor" after their standard "Information Victor is current, altimeter 29.92", but technically they're not supposed to do it per the AIM. They'll always give you the altimeter if you say you don't have the ATIS, and sometimes the winds right then and there.

Our controllers around here tend to be ultra-accomodating. When I was flying out of KVNY many years ago, those poor folks were too busy to accommodate much. Nice folks at the TRACON there in L.A., but very busy. I assume NorCal and the SFO area is similarly busy.

Also in cases where a TRACON is handing you off to a tower, it seems to me that they'll relay that you have the ATIS in most cases if they're going to hang on to you right up until the last second. I'll usually shoot a "Denver Approach, Skylane 79M has Centennial Information Victor" at them about 15 miles out, so they'll have time to note it, and pass it along.

I don't know if they're doing that by tagging a data block, or if they're calling on the landline, but it does seem to work. I've noticed if you do this, most of the time the Tower cab folks don't ask and seem to know you have it from the TRACON, but have never asked any controllers about the practice. They definitely ask IFR flights, since the TRACON clears them for the approach and only hands them off to the Tower fairly late in the process. So there must be a method to that somewhere behind the scenes.

It seems common around here for the TRACON to actually ASK you if you have it during non-busy times if you're VFR on FF, too. So, I think they must cooperate pretty well 'round here.

The landline is a button push away for them, I suppose... a quick point-out with the info that my target is headed their way and has the ATIS, or something.

Don't know. Seems to work well, though. Especially if the Tower is busy on a weekend.

So there you go... Just build up the habit... if you copied it down, tell 'em in the initial call up and you're immediately the controller's "holy crap a Cessna that got it right!" hero of the day... LOL!
 
OK let me explain. I had flight following, off and on, all the way down. I had the airport in sight much further out than I expected, and told the controllers I had it in sight.

They told me to contact Monterey tower on such and such freq.

As I've learned, with sometimes "busy" controllers, your initial call up can be shortened to "xxx tower, Cessna 24498" in case they are busy and need to get back to you later.

That's all I said when he responded with information about landing.

If he had said "Cessna 24498, Monterey Tower, say your request" or something then I would have said:

"Cessna 24498, 10 miles North, landing with Juliet"
 
Thanks for all the good responses and coaching. Tango's step by step list really nails it down for this particular trip, while the rest of your help is what I need over and over, while I'm learning to talk all over again.

As it turns out, it looks like I will be driving over there this time due to weather.

Tango's talk about the area around GPM reminded me of something though. The first time I was ever in an airplane and broke the bonds of Earth was in the backseat of a 172 on a demonstration ride. My girlfriend at the time had a BIL who was working on his pilot's license and I got to sit in the back seat. This was sometime in May of 1969 just before I went overseas in the Army. That's the only time I've ever been on their runway.

In 1969 Mountain Creek Lake was there as was the Vought/NAS Dallas runway. The Interstate wasn't there and there was a little country road that went out to the airport with no roads or city buildings anywhere around. Lake Ray Roberts wasn't there. The valleys where the lake is now, is where we did our racing around in our old Ford's and Chevy's. There no subdivisions in Grand Prairie within at least two miles of the airport, but the area is completely surrounded now.

About a year previous to this I had been rejected by Naval Flight School due to my lack of 20/20 vision. For many years I was under the belief that my lack of 20/20 eyesight prevented me from flying civilian aircraft as well. Now, well over 40 years later, I get to go full circle and land on the runway from which I first broke the bonds of Earth.

Life does indeed go full circle.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Lake Ray Roberts wasn't there. The valleys where the lake is now, is where we did our racing around in our old Ford's and Chevy's. There no subdivisions in Grand Prairie within at least two miles of the airport, but the area is completely surrounded now.
Click to expand...

Do you mean Joe Pool Lake? I wonder when it was dammed, then....

Interesting fact... Texas, for its size, surprisingly only has (had) one natural lake (Caddo Lake in East Texas). All the others were formed by damming of creeks and rivers. I say "had", because Caddo itself was dammed in the early 1900s when oil was found, and again in 1914 for flood control. The dam was replaced in the '70s.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/findadest/parks/caddo_lake/
 
Funny, my problem is just the opposite as I tend to trip over my tongue at non-controlled airports, especially when announcing my instrument approach procedure segments. With controllers, aside from initial contact calls, it's usually just a matter of listening for heading, altitude and simple instructions and then acknowledging receipt of their commands.

One thing that helped me was to make little sticky notes with scripts for each phase of flight and putting them up on my panel as each phase was entered.
 
DrMack said:
Funny, my problem is just the opposite as I tend to trip over my tongue at non-controlled airports, especially when announcing my instrument approach procedure segments. With controllers, aside from initial contact calls, it's usually just a matter of listening for heading, altitude and simple instructions and then acknowledging receipt of their commands.

One thing that helped me was to make little sticky notes with scripts for each phase of flight and putting them up on my panel as each phase was entered.
Click to expand...

I wrote a script long ago, during training. Not on sticky notes though. I should find it and bring it with me.
 
I know I'm late to the thread, but this book helped me a lot.

Say Again, Please
by Bob Gardner

Say_Again_please.jpg
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Do you mean Joe Pool Lake? I wonder when it was dammed, then....

Interesting fact... Texas, for its size, surprisingly only has (had) one natural lake (Caddo Lake in East Texas). All the others were formed by damming of creeks and rivers. I say "had", because Caddo itself was dammed in the early 1900s when oil was found, and again in 1914 for flood control. The dam was replaced in the '70s.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/findadest/parks/caddo_lake/
Click to expand...


Yes, Joe Poole. Sorry about that! It wasn't there when I moved away from the area. Ray Roberts is also a relatively new one, so I get them mixed up.

You're right about what I've always called "man made lakes." There are hundreds of thousands of them in Texas. Some are dams made in a pasture to capture enough water for the livestock and others are big like Joe Poole.
 
bfergie10 said:
I know I'm late to the thread, but this book helped me a lot.

Say Again, Please
by Bob Gardner

Say_Again_please.jpg
Click to expand...


I just got Bob's book "The Complete Advanced Pilot" yesterday. His writing is VERY good. I have learned over the years that not many books on technical subjects are very effective, but so far this one seems extremely good.

I may have to spring for this one, even though since I'm working hard on my IR and Commercial it will be hard to fit it into my reading time. That said, I think it is very necessary that I do so.

Doc
 
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