Departing VMC for a IFR flight plan non towered

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TommyG

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It's been a few years since flying under IFR from a non towered airport. Just trying to remember proper procedure for departing with an IFR flight plan from a non towered airport in VMC.

Is it possible to have a IFR plan on file from a fix off the airport and pick up the clearance there? Such as depart Podunk airport and get to podunk VOR 10 miles away and pick up the clearance there and then continue on the IFR plan?

Of course I know to try and get control on a frequency and get the clearance void time. But what other ways to get my clearance??

I have gotten spoiled with towered airports and IFR, but with the TFR over NY and probably many more to come within the next year, I want to keep my skills up to speed.
 
File IFR with your destination airport instead of a fix. Call National Clearance Delivery 888-766-8267 on the ground and get your clearance and void time. Or just depart VFR and pickup the clearance in the air.
 
TommyG said:
It's been a few years since flying under IFR from a non towered airport. Just trying to remember proper procedure for departing with an IFR flight plan from a non towered airport in VMC.

Is it possible to have a IFR plan on file from a fix off the airport and pick up the clearance there? Such as depart Podunk airport and get to podunk VOR 10 miles away and pick up the clearance there and then continue on the IFR plan?

Of course I know to try and get control on a frequency and get the clearance void time. But what other ways to get my clearance??

I have gotten spoiled with towered airports and IFR, but with the TFR over NY and probably many more to come within the next year, I want to keep my skills up to speed.
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Yes it's possible. May not be easy though. What airports are you talking about? You need to pick the brains of those who fly around there regularly and controllers who are working that airspace.
 
Depart.
Call approach/center on the appropriate frequency.
Get clearance.


Done.
 
TommyG said:
It's been a few years since flying under IFR from a non towered airport. Just trying to remember proper procedure for departing with an IFR flight plan from a non towered airport in VMC.

Is it possible to have a IFR plan on file from a fix off the airport and pick up the clearance there? Such as depart Podunk airport and get to podunk VOR 10 miles away and pick up the clearance there and then continue on the IFR plan?

Of course I know to try and get control on a frequency and get the clearance void time. But what other ways to get my clearance??

I have gotten spoiled with towered airports and IFR, but with the TFR over NY and probably many more to come within the next year, I want to keep my skills up to speed.
Click to expand...

If there is some benefit, you can start you flight plan from anywhere, but make sure that it is a conventional fix (NDB, VOR, intersection, etc). You can certainly use your phone for clearance delivery. I am fortunate to have a GCO on my field, so I can patch right into Raleigh Approach control to get mine. Otherwise, if I can depart and maintain VFR, I usually opt to pick up my IFR clearance in the air.
 
If using phone, be ready, they usually require you to take off in 5 mins.
 
EdFred said:
Depart.

Call approach/center on the appropriate frequency.

Get clearance.





Done.
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Preferred method, I only use phone method if departing IFR.
Also can just do FF and if you need to go IFR because of WX, request a pop up IFR clearance.
 
If your true vmc ,no problem ,take off get the clearance in the air. You can use the airport your departing from,just call approach control,when in the air. I prefer to use the phone,to be sure the plan is on file.
 
teejayevans said:
Also can just do FF and if you need to go IFR because of WX, request a pop up IFR clearance.
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Be careful with this. Some controllers are more agreeable/helpful with this than others. Depending on your location and controller workload, you may get told to contact Flight Service on the radio and file with them before calling back for your clearance.
 
TommyG said:
It's been a few years since flying under IFR from a non towered airport. Just trying to remember proper procedure for departing with an IFR flight plan from a non towered airport in VMC.

Is it possible to have a IFR plan on file from a fix off the airport and pick up the clearance there? Such as depart Podunk airport and get to podunk VOR 10 miles away and pick up the clearance there and then continue on the IFR plan?

Of course I know to try and get control on a frequency and get the clearance void time. But what other ways to get my clearance??

I have gotten spoiled with towered airports and IFR, but with the TFR over NY and probably many more to come within the next year, I want to keep my skills up to speed.
Click to expand...

If it is VMC and will remain so as you climb out and start, filing from an enroute fix is feasible. But there is a much easier option. File from your departure airport and, once comfortably clear of the traffic pattern (so you don't feel it is better to stay on the CTAF), simply call the appropriate departure facility, identify who you are and your position and ask to open your IFR flight plan. I don't think there's an official name for it ("pop up" usually means no advance filing at all) but I think of it as the "simple IFR pickup")

I think in the 22 years since I received my instrument rating, I've done the "remote fix" once. The simple pickup is probably the most common one I use, with void time clearances reserved for conditions that don't allow for a comfortable simple pickup.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
Be careful with this. Some controllers are more agreeable/helpful with this than others. Depending on your location and controller workload, you may get told to contact Flight Service on the radio and file with them before calling back for your clearance.
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I agree. I've done pop-ups a number of times, and they have always worked out well, but I have a sense they are probably rejected even more than VFR FF based on workload since there's potentially more work for the controller to arrange it.

And it may be one of those "the more you need it, the less likely you can get it" things since with, say lowering ceilings, workload tends to get heavier, especially in busier geographic areas.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I agree. I've done pop-ups a number of times, and they have always worked out well, but I have a sense they are probably rejected even more than VFR FF based on workload since there's potentially more work for the controller to arrange it.

And it may be one of those "the more you need it, the less likely you can get it" things since with, say lowering ceilings, workload tends to get heavier, especially in busier geographic areas.
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this....:yesnod:
 
I departed from 3CK in IMC on Sunday. I called the national number, and they gave me the phone number for the local ATC to call. Called them. The guy was very quick to provide back a clearance with void time if not off in 10 minutes. Gave me a heading direction on take off. Took off, went IMC, turned to 360, radioed 120.55 and reported altitude and heading and I was on my way home. It was pretty easy overall. Phone call before starting the engine while sitting in the plane usually works best.
 
Any of these work. Call on the ground, call in the air, file from an enroute fix.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
What's the purpose in filing from an enroute fix?
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I'll give you an example. Departing from KOAK to the north IFR, ATC will usually route you way off to the east first (almost always via ALTAM). But you can file your ifr plan from SGD with no problem and then get the routing you want. Plus you don't have to wait on the ground for release. If you file from the airport, even if you pick it up in the air, your routing will be way off from what you filed. And if you do pop-up it's more of a hassle and you may not get it if ATC is too busy. So that's one example.
 
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SbestCFII said:
If there is some benefit, you can start you flight plan from anywhere, but make sure that it is a conventional fix (NDB, VOR, intersection, etc). You can certainly use your phone for clearance delivery. I am fortunate to have a GCO on my field, so I can patch right into Raleigh Approach control to get mine. Otherwise, if I can depart and maintain VFR, I usually opt to pick up my IFR clearance in the air.
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Ultimately am looking just for the easiest way in to an airport under the presidential TFR. If it is a vmc day I can just go my own way to a certain point. I am not sure how atc would like a pop up a few miles before the TFR viel.
 
TommyG said:
Ultimately am looking just for the easiest way in to an airport under the presidential TFR. If it is a vmc day I can just go my own way to a certain point. I am not sure how atc would like a pop up a few miles before the TFR viel.
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A pop up IFR does generally meet the requirements of the TFR. You can file to and from virtually anywhere--doesn't have to be an airport--could be a navaid, a fix, a lat/long, a radial dme point, whatever. You just need to figure out who has control of your starting point so you know who got your flight plan, and consequently, who to call.

There are many reasons to file from an intermediate fix--weather, routings, radar coverage, different ATC facility, you name it. Sometimes it's done to force a particular routing, or if the departure airport is on the edge of an ATC facility, to force your flight plan to the next controller.

One word of advice in case you're a flightaware addict--flight plans that start or end somewhere other than an airport tend not to have their speed and altitude plotting show up on flightaware. I have no idea why this is the case.
 
Brad Z said:
You just need to figure out who has control of your starting point so you know who got your flight plan, and consequently, who to call.
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This bears repeating as it's one little caveat about picking up in the air. Normally it's no problem but you need to know what facility has responsibility over the starting point of your flight plan. If your airport is near an ARTCC boundary for example you have to pay closer attention.
 
Ive been told "cant right now, just stay VFR and circle around the VOR and we'll get back to you". In IMC, taking off without an IFR clearance is dicey, especially if the ceilings are low. You might not be able to get a clearance right away. If there is an RCO on the field use it, that one works fine. Otherwise youll have to use the phone, which does work also. Both are better than picking up in the air, if you really need the clearance to proceed. If you can proceed VFR, what the heck, go for a clearance from the air.
 
EdFred said:
Depart.
Call approach/center on the appropriate frequency.
Get clearance.


Done.
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Depart. Push throttle forward, pull back stick.

Call approach/center on the appropriate frequency. Dial in frequency, push button, talk.

So far so good. Now comes the fun part.......

Get Clearance. Your not in charge anymore, they are. Local knowledge and experience is worth it's weight in gold here.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Ive been told "cant right now, just stay VFR and circle around the VOR and we'll get back to you". In IMC, taking off without an IFR clearance is dicey, especially if the ceilings are low. You might not be able to get a clearance right away. If there is an RCO on the field use it, that one works fine. Otherwise youll have to use the phone, which does work also. Both are better than picking up in the air, if you really need the clearance to proceed. If you can proceed VFR, what the heck, go for a clearance from the air.
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Who says RCO and phone are the only two alternatives? I call Center on frequency from the ground. They can't see me, but they can hear me just fine, and I can hear them. Makes it easy to keep the IFR all the way to the ground coming back too. I know of at least two New England fields with that capability (at LCI you can even talk to a dedicated CD facility), and there are probably more than that.

</nitpick>
 
peerlesscowboy said:
What's the purpose in filing from an enroute fix?
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Some facilities like NY approach can be difficult with activating an IFR fligth plan in the air. If you depart to the south and file from a fix in the jurisdiction of McGuire approach, you have no problem picking up your IFR clearance in the air.
 
azure said:
Who says RCO and phone are the only two alternatives? I call Center on frequency from the ground. They can't see me, but they can hear me just fine, and I can hear them. Makes it easy to keep the IFR all the way to the ground coming back too. I know of at least two New England fields with that capability (at LCI you can even talk to a dedicated CD facility), and there are probably more than that.



</nitpick>
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I thought airports will list frequency if available on the ground?
Sometimes even if listed I can't get them and take off and contact them as soon as I'm at pattern height


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teejayevans said:
I thought airports will list frequency if available on the ground?
Sometimes even if listed I can't get them and take off and contact them as soon as I'm at pattern height


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Sometimes, sometimes not. If it is an official remote, yes, but sometimes it just happens to be a location where you can reach a facility and not published.
 
teejayevans said:
I thought airports will list frequency if available on the ground?
Sometimes even if listed I can't get them and take off and contact them as soon as I'm at pattern height


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Right, a published approach services facility may or may not be available on the ground, whether it's an ARTCC or a TRACON. It just so happens that at my home base and probably others, it's available (Boston Center here). You can call the facility on the phone and ask if you need to know ahead of time, or ask them on the frequency on the way in (or ask someone local).

Clearance delivery is a different animal. I don't know for sure, but given the nature of the service, I'd assume that if the frequency is published, it probably means that the service is available on the ground.
 
luvflyin said:
Depart. Push throttle forward, pull back stick.

Call approach/center on the appropriate frequency. Dial in frequency, push button, talk.

So far so good. Now comes the fun part.......

Get Clearance. Your not in charge anymore, they are. Local knowledge and experience is worth it's weight in gold here.
Click to expand...

I don't get what you are driving at. PIC is always in charge.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Be careful with this. Some controllers are more agreeable/helpful with this than others. Depending on your location and controller workload, you may get told to contact Flight Service on the radio and file with them before calling back for your clearance.
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^ This ^. "Unable, maintain VFR", or a professional-grade lecture via radio, or both.
 
ggroves said:
^ This ^. "Unable, maintain VFR", or a professional-grade lecture via radio, or both.
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I just ask.
"7DS, request."
"7DS, go ahead"
"I am going to want a clearance in a bit. You or flight service?"

I think only once have they told me contact FSS. But I'm usually on FF already, and most of the stuff is on the strip. Only one controller asked me for ALL the info, every other time it's just been "what's your equipment?" and that's it.

It's all in how you ask, I think.
 
EdFred said:
I just ask.
"7DS, request."
"7DS, go ahead"
"I am going to want a clearance in a bit. You or flight service?"

I think only once have they told me contact FSS. But I'm usually on FF already, and most of the stuff is on the strip. Only one controller asked me for ALL the info, every other time it's just been "what's your equipment?" and that's it.

It's all in how you ask, I think.
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That, and the absurd question of whether you're qualified for and capable of conducting IFR flight, which seemed to "pop up" a few years ago (as a convoluted interpretation of a requirement in 10-2-8 of 7110.65) when requesting pop up IFR clearances.
 
EdFred said:
I just ask.




It's all in how you ask, I think.
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It's also the circumstances. A pop-up due to weather, sure. Picking up a clearance in the air because you're too lazy to use the phone or RCO on the ground or you don't want to wait for other departures, not so much in some airspace. Potomac will refuse you in the latter situation, and get nasty about it.


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ggroves said:
It's also the circumstances. A pop-up due to weather, sure. Picking up a clearance in the air because you're too lazy to use the phone or RCO on the ground or you don't want to wait for other departures, not so much in some airspace. Potomac will refuse you in the latter situation, and get nasty about it.


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Wait, PICKING UP a clearance? Filing I get, but to pick one up? **** that. If I'm filed, and it's VMC, I'm picking it up in the air, and if they want to waste air time chewing me out, I will give it right back. I don't have an OpSpec that requires me to depart IFR.
 
EdFred said:
Wait, PICKING UP a clearance? Filing I get, but to pick one up? **** that. If I'm filed, and it's VMC, I'm picking it up in the air, and if they want to waste air time chewing me out, I will give it right back. I don't have an OpSpec that requires me to depart IFR.
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C'mon out to Varmont, Ed. ZBW won't chew you out, they'll just make you wish you'd called on the ground. After going through that BS a few times you realize it isn't worth it. Picking up on the ground is painless here.
 
azure said:
C'mon out to Varmont, Ed. ZBW won't chew you out, they'll just make you wish you'd called on the ground. After going through that BS a few times you realize it isn't worth it. Picking up on the ground is painless here.
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Doubtful. I have a whole stash of retorts ready to fly back at em. If they have time to waste chewing someone out, they can't be that busy and really don't have much of a leg to stand on if I have something "non-standard" to say back.
 
EdFred said:
Doubtful. I have a whole stash of retorts ready to fly back at em. If they have time to waste chewing someone out, they can't be that busy and really don't have much of a leg to stand on if I have something "non-standard" to say back.
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One time, sure. Twice, even. But if you lived out here and realized that every time you tried to pick up in the air they were going to push back, you'd get tired of it pretty quick, I expect. Unless you just like to argue. ;)

BTW it's not that they're nasty, they just don't seem to understand that they really are authorized to clear someone to climb through clouds up to the MIA, as long as the aircraft can maintain their own terrain and obstruction clearance.
 
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